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Seraphimtoaster375

Whats the deal with the Starviper?

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I really don't get the "weak aces" comment.  Just because someone doesn't have PTL doesn't mean it's a bad ship.  I do think Xizor needs to take VI, but so what?  Load up with FCS and Autothrusters and he's good.  What's "weak" about him?

 

It's 37pt minimum with that setup, with no initiative bid and no body guards. I think it's fine, but it's hard to argue for that Xizor at 37pts compared to what 35pts worth of Vader or Soontir can get you, imho.

The 2 more points of pocket change get you a far tougher Vader (not sure how ATC stacks v 3 dice + FCS, though) And a far harder hitting, more forgiving and less **** giving soontir

Xizor can hang with (and ruthlessly murder) the big Boys

Any deficiency is exaggerated or purely imaginary; xizor kicks ass

His z-95s...not so much. Hoping the mist hunter brings more competent minions

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Not to mention the shenanigans that a ship with inherent boost/BR with adv sensors is capable of. Setting your opponent up for a 'predictable' trap on a flank then redirecting 9 across the board to hunt scrubs is something l've come to love. 

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I quite enjoyed runnign Xizor along side 2 titled ion y-wings and a z95 back before wave 7 came out.  I modified that list to use TLTs instead of ion, but haven't actually flown it.   I'm looking forward to seeing how much the G1A generics are and what I can do using a couple of them flying alongside Xizor.  I already have a list put together using Zuckuss, Xizor and Palob that I've only flown once so far but worked well for that game (course, my opponent made the mistake of shooting at xizor when he had him and zuckuss in arc, so the 1 uncancelled hit each shot just went to zuckuss' shields...)

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If they had Illicit as default, all the ships were 2 points cheaper, Virago granted Guri's ability and a system, and Guri had a stress ignoring ability from her robot Brain, we'd have something special.

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People wanted it to be a TIE Interceptor/A-Wing and it isn't. It is more of a hyper-B-Wing that gets the damage mitigation of the former two.

Nope, it has no Evade token for damage mitigation of the two.

and has B-wing greens.

And costs like E-wing >_>

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People wanted it to be a TIE Interceptor/A-Wing and it isn't. It is more of a hyper-B-Wing that gets the damage mitigation of the former two.

Nope, it has no Evade token for damage mitigation of the two.

and has B-wing greens.

And costs like E-wing >_>

Xizor has better than evades as an ability

The viper does not need ptl because it isn't an overpriced Tie fighter with guns. Action independent abilities + system actually make it very stress resilient, not at all like the r3-a2 fearing imps

And the E is a bit pricey, 2 points up on the generic and 4 points between corran/xizor

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People wanted it to be a TIE Interceptor/A-Wing and it isn't. It is more of a hyper-B-Wing that gets the damage mitigation of the former two.

Nope, it has no Evade token for damage mitigation of the two.

and has B-wing greens.

And costs like E-wing >_>

Xizor has better than evades as an ability

The viper does not need ptl because it isn't an overpriced Tie fighter with guns. Action independent abilities + system actually make it very stress resilient, not at all like the r3-a2 fearing imps

And the E is a bit pricey, 2 points up on the generic and 4 points between corran/xizor

 

You know where I've seen an overpriced ship with no evade action where it's meant to be?

It's called DEFENDER. and now it will have a title that removes the overpricedness and give it free evade tokens.

hehehe...

 

You take xizor and you're stuck with his "more ablative hulls" swarm builds. that don't really work good because it's not a true swarm, has measly damage output compared to TIE swarms of all three flavours,  and Xizor isn't a true damage dealer.

 

And if your opponent isn't dull, he'll wipe the floor with the screen and then look at Xizor who suddnly is an overpriced ****** with slim chances on victory, an ability that's not working any more. and PS7.

 

It's a Bwing that traded it's shields for dial bleach and fickle green dice.

A ship with boost, barrelroll, sensor slot and...DERP, no green and no PS8 pilot to bear. what use is boost+barrel when you can't PTL for both, and can't adv sensor around because you lack good pilots. It can't joust (too freaking expensive) it can't arcdodge (reasoned above) 

 

 

 

Many good things that don't come together.

sounds like Blaster turret. Cool until you combine it all into one picture. SUddenly it's not as cool as it seemed.

You can lie to yourself about it, but it just can't reach the level of pilots that have ships and abilities that work together

(Dash in PWT, Horn with doubletap+FCS, Soontir on Ceptor, Poe with R5K9(or what was the name of focus eating droid?)

FFG tried to make it weird like it should be, and succeeded.

Pity they were afraid of giving it a niche in current meta. 

Guri is cool at hunting TLT platforms and all, but she costs MORE THAN FULLY KITED VADER in a reliable Virago build

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Hmmm.....this is an interesting topic. I own two Starviper but have never used them in my Scum builds. I was looking for a consensus as to what's the best Starviper build. The interesting thing is there doesn't seem to be one. Some people are saying generics are great while Guri and Xizor are weak....some are saying Xizor isn't good but Guri is great...still others say Xizor is great but Guri not so much. What I take from this is that the Starviper can fit into lists in any of its four pilot skill levels, you just have to find what works for you. I think I'll try a Xizor build and if that doesn't go well maybe a couple of Black Sun Enforcers with Bossk.

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what use is boost+barrel when you can't PTL for both, and can't adv sensor around because you lack good pilots. 

 

What is stopping you again? Using both to position for blocking is legit. So is hunting lower PS. Even at lower PS this ship will fly rings around plenty of higher pilot ships.

 

Guri is cool at hunting TLT platforms and all, but she costs MORE THAN FULLY KITED VADER in a reliable Virago build

 

Agreed but c'mon man its vader.

 

 

Hmmm.....this is an interesting topic. I own two Starviper but have never used them in my Scum builds. I was looking for a consensus as to what's the best Starviper build. The interesting thing is there doesn't seem to be one. Some people are saying generics are great while Guri and Xizor are weak....some are saying Xizor isn't good but Guri is great...still others say Xizor is great but Guri not so much. What I take from this is that the Starviper can fit into lists in any of its four pilot skill levels, you just have to find what works for you. I think I'll try a Xizor build and if that doesn't go well maybe a couple of Black Sun Enforcers with Bossk. 

 

This is one more reason its a rogue ship atm. And that is partially due to scum as a 'young' faction in general meaning this ship will start showing up more when more options open up. Its not always easy to slot in because you end up falling back on a single tlt or fleahunter when nothing else fits. So its avoided. 

Edited by Carnor Rex

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You know where I've seen an overpriced ship with no evade action where it's meant to be?

It's called DEFENDER. and now it will have a title that removes the overpricedness and give it free evade tokens.

hehehe...

 

You take xizor and you're stuck with his "more ablative hulls" swarm builds. that don't really work good because it's not a true swarm, has measly damage output compared to TIE swarms of all three flavours,  and Xizor isn't a true damage dealer.

 

And if your opponent isn't dull, he'll wipe the floor with the screen and then look at Xizor who suddnly is an overpriced ****** with slim chances on victory, an ability that's not working any more. and PS7.

 

It's a Bwing that traded it's shields for dial bleach and fickle green dice.

A ship with boost, barrelroll, sensor slot and...DERP, no green and no PS8 pilot to bear. what use is boost+barrel when you can't PTL for both, and can't adv sensor around because you lack good pilots. It can't joust (too freaking expensive) it can't arcdodge (reasoned above) 

 

 

I've used a Xizor swarm in tournaments before.  I beat the guy who won the Atlanta Regionals with the list.  I took it to Raleigh Regionals and came very close to getting into Top 16.  If my dice hadn't gone so cold that even my opponent felt bad then I would've done it.  I know some people in the UK have done incredibly well with the same list, too.  To say that you can only beat dull opponents with just a slim chance of victory is bombastic and very wrong. 

 

You say that the Z swarm is ineffective, but give no reason why.  I've used it to good effect many times and know you are wrong. 

 

You say Xizor isn't a "true" damage dealer and I don't get that.  Give him FCS and he's getting 3 red dice w/ Focus and TL.  What's not damage dealing about that?  Also, why can't he joust?  He's fantastic at jousting when he's able to use his ability.

 

You say that a ship can't arc dodge without being PS 9 and having PTL?  I find that very wrong.  What good are Boost and Barrel Roll without PTL?  It's called FCS and it gives you the TL.  So, you can use your action to maneuver and use your TL to modify dice.  You don't have to be able to both Boost and BR to be effective. 

 

I find your discussion points weak with no argument behind them. 

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People wanted it to be a TIE Interceptor/A-Wing and it isn't. It is more of a hyper-B-Wing that gets the damage mitigation of the former two.

Nope, it has no Evade token for damage mitigation of the two.

and has B-wing greens.

And costs like E-wing >_>

 

 

No ship has more than four different actions so the Viper would have to lose one to gain Evade outside of an upgrade.  It is more durable than an A-Wing or Squint and it can take a systems slot.

 

The green maneuvers are not the only maneuvers that matter.  A lot or people have been conditioned to clear stress on the first opportunity when that isn't always the best move, frequently my opponents play for me to select a green move and they plan accordingly.  Sometimes it is better to take the white maneuver that will give you better positioning.

Edited by Burius1981

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what use is boost+barrel when you can't PTL for both, and can't adv sensor around because you lack good pilots. 

What is stopping you again? Using both to position for blocking is legit. So is hunting lower PS. Even at lower PS this ship will fly rings around plenty of higher pilot ships.

 

Guri is cool at hunting TLT platforms and all, but she costs MORE THAN FULLY KITED VADER in a reliable Virago build

Agreed but c'mon man its vader.

 

 

Hmmm.....this is an interesting topic. I own two Starviper but have never used them in my Scum builds. I was looking for a consensus as to what's the best Starviper build. The interesting thing is there doesn't seem to be one. Some people are saying generics are great while Guri and Xizor are weak....some are saying Xizor isn't good but Guri is great...still others say Xizor is great but Guri not so much. What I take from this is that the Starviper can fit into lists in any of its four pilot skill levels, you just have to find what works for you. I think I'll try a Xizor build and if that doesn't go well maybe a couple of Black Sun Enforcers with Bossk. 

This is one more reason its a rogue ship atm. And that is partially due to scum as a 'young' faction in general meaning this ship will start showing up more when more options open up. Its not always easy to slot in because you end up falling back on a single tlt or fleahunter when nothing else fits. So its avoided. 

Blocking? With a ship that costs like an ace. Sure thing, let's then use fat PWTs as blockers...

 

Everything must cost accordingly to it's qualities.

And if Darth Father is Darth Father, he must cost accordingly. and a PS5 "fast B wing" must cost accordingly as well.

 

It's not "young" it's just going through all the waves in quick succession.

Kihraxz place is in wave 1, Starviper and G1 are surely wave 3 ships, Jumpmaster and YV are Wave 4 ships with no backthought.

 

And FFG just is afraid to topple the meta with too good S&V ships. 

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People wanted it to be a TIE Interceptor/A-Wing and it isn't. It is more of a hyper-B-Wing that gets the damage mitigation of the former two.

Nope, it has no Evade token for damage mitigation of the two.

and has B-wing greens.

And costs like E-wing >_>

 

 

 

 

 

 

People wanted it to be a TIE Interceptor/A-Wing and it isn't. It is more of a hyper-B-Wing that gets the damage mitigation of the former two.

Nope, it has no Evade token for damage mitigation of the two.

and has B-wing greens.

And costs like E-wing >_>

Xizor has better than evades as an ability

The viper does not need ptl because it isn't an overpriced Tie fighter with guns. Action independent abilities + system actually make it very stress resilient, not at all like the r3-a2 fearing imps

And the E is a bit pricey, 2 points up on the generic and 4 points between corran/xizor

 

 

It's a Bwing that traded it's shields for dial bleach and fickle green dice.

 

 

I don't know why people insist on comparing the starviper dial to the b-wing dial.  It *doesn't* have the same greens as a b-wing.  It has the greens of a T70.   And sure it has the same maneuvers on it's dial as a b-wing (if you ignore the difficulty and swap the kturn for sloops).  I would compare the starviper to the x-wing dial way more than the b-wing dial, with the exception of the 3 turns being changed to 1 turns on the starviper (which I prefer, probably my favorite maneuver in the game).  It's actually quite a good dial if you aren't trying to run it like a TIE interceptor with PTL.

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what use is boost+barrel when you can't PTL for both, and can't adv sensor around because you lack good pilots. 

What is stopping you again? Using both to position for blocking is legit. So is hunting lower PS. Even at lower PS this ship will fly rings around plenty of higher pilot ships.

 

Guri is cool at hunting TLT platforms and all, but she costs MORE THAN FULLY KITED VADER in a reliable Virago build

Agreed but c'mon man its vader.

 

 

Hmmm.....this is an interesting topic. I own two Starviper but have never used them in my Scum builds. I was looking for a consensus as to what's the best Starviper build. The interesting thing is there doesn't seem to be one. Some people are saying generics are great while Guri and Xizor are weak....some are saying Xizor isn't good but Guri is great...still others say Xizor is great but Guri not so much. What I take from this is that the Starviper can fit into lists in any of its four pilot skill levels, you just have to find what works for you. I think I'll try a Xizor build and if that doesn't go well maybe a couple of Black Sun Enforcers with Bossk. 

This is one more reason its a rogue ship atm. And that is partially due to scum as a 'young' faction in general meaning this ship will start showing up more when more options open up. Its not always easy to slot in because you end up falling back on a single tlt or fleahunter when nothing else fits. So its avoided. 

Blocking? With a ship that costs like an ace. Sure thing, let's then use fat PWTs as blockers...

 

Everything must cost accordingly to it's qualities.

And if Darth Father is Darth Father, he must cost accordingly. and a PS5 "fast B wing" must cost accordingly as well.

 

It's not "young" it's just going through all the waves in quick succession.

Kihraxz place is in wave 1, Starviper and G1 are surely wave 3 ships, Jumpmaster and YV are Wave 4 ships with no backthought.

 

And FFG just is afraid to topple the meta with too good S&V ships. 

 

 

I've done fairly well with the G1A so far on vassal, and am quite looking forward to the jumpmaster.  I've had pretty good luck with the YV as well for that matter...

 

And don't forget Brobots that made it to top 4 at worlds...

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You know where I've seen an overpriced ship with no evade action where it's meant to be?

It's called DEFENDER. and now it will have a title that removes the overpricedness and give it free evade tokens.

hehehe...

 

You take xizor and you're stuck with his "more ablative hulls" swarm builds. that don't really work good because it's not a true swarm, has measly damage output compared to TIE swarms of all three flavours,  and Xizor isn't a true damage dealer.

 

And if your opponent isn't dull, he'll wipe the floor with the screen and then look at Xizor who suddnly is an overpriced ****** with slim chances on victory, an ability that's not working any more. and PS7.

 

It's a Bwing that traded it's shields for dial bleach and fickle green dice.

A ship with boost, barrelroll, sensor slot and...DERP, no green and no PS8 pilot to bear. what use is boost+barrel when you can't PTL for both, and can't adv sensor around because you lack good pilots. It can't joust (too freaking expensive) it can't arcdodge (reasoned above) 

 

 

I've used a Xizor swarm in tournaments before.  I beat the guy who won the Atlanta Regionals with the list.  I took it to Raleigh Regionals and came very close to getting into Top 16.  If my dice hadn't gone so cold that even my opponent felt bad then I would've done it.  I know some people in the UK have done incredibly well with the same list, too.  To say that you can only beat dull opponents with just a slim chance of victory is bombastic and very wrong. 

 

You say that the Z swarm is ineffective, but give no reason why.  I've used it to good effect many times and know you are wrong. 

 

You say Xizor isn't a "true" damage dealer and I don't get that.  Give him FCS and he's getting 3 red dice w/ Focus and TL.  What's not damage dealing about that?  Also, why can't he joust?  He's fantastic at jousting when he's able to use his ability.

 

You say that a ship can't arc dodge without being PS 9 and having PTL?  I find that very wrong.  What good are Boost and Barrel Roll without PTL?  It's called FCS and it gives you the TL.  So, you can use your action to maneuver and use your TL to modify dice.  You don't have to be able to both Boost and BR to be effective. 

 

I find your discussion points weak with no argument behind them. 

 

Can't boast beating a guy who won the Atlanta regionals, I'm afraid.

But I can surely boast being that guy who made sure there are no Xizorswarms in our meta xD

While they tried, yes, they really did. 

 

I say Z swarm doesn't come close to true swarms in terms of damage output, and due to xizor eating up half of your points you're not even having the bodies for effective blocking of all lanes.

 

3 dice with focus+TL. Cool, for like HOW MUCH POINTS?

37 if you take the cheapest VI+FCS+AT xizor. 

A bit more and we get a FCS PTLing regening HORN. That's damage dealing. 

Xizor isn't. 

All attempts to joust with xizorswarm resulted in getting "swarm" blown to bits. And then xizor becomes fishfood. 

 

I say an arc dodger not only dodges the arc, but still gets his own shot.

So far I can name... 3 arcdodgers that are true to that definition.

Vader, Soontir, and Jake Farrel. See the system? 

FCS is an action economy upgrade. Arcdodge isn't exactly about that.

 

 

No ship has more than four different actions so the Viper would have to lose one to gain Evade outside of an upgrade.  It is more durable than an A-Wing or Squint and it can take a systems slot.

 

The green maneuvers are not the only maneuvers that matter.  A lot or people have been conditioned to clear stress on the first opportunity when that isn't always the best move, frequently my opponents play for me to select a green move and they plan accordingly.  Sometimes it is better to take the white maneuver that will give you better positioning.

 

Nothing is the problem it seems, especially now when there's a Adv Prototype that has such a title in-built.

 

and it costs 25 base. 

and the system slot is 1 point more expensive, because it comes with UNIQUE title.

 

so it's (roughly, imagine we can take virago on generic)

1 point cheaper than E-wing, but can't take evades and has worse hull-shields ratio. 

yeah, boost...

 

The green maneuvers are exactly what matters when we're looking at expensive ace platforms in a horrible world of stress-inductors.

The green maneuvers are exactly what matters when we're looking at aces that require action economy and multiple actions to make up for their cost.

Edited by Warpman

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I say Z swarm doesn't come close to true swarms in terms of damage output, and due to xizor eating up half of your points you're not even having the bodies for effective blocking of all lanes.

 

3 dice with focus+TL. Cool, for like HOW MUCH POINTS?

37 if you take the cheapest VI+FCS+AT xizor. 

A bit more and we get a FCS PTLing regening HORN. That's damage dealing. 

Xizor isn't. 

All attempts to joust with xizorswarm resulted in getting "swarm" blown to bits. And then xizor becomes fishfood. 

 

I say an arc dodger not only dodges the arc, but still gets his own shot.

So far I can name... 3 arcdodgers that are true to that definition.

Vader, Soontir, and Jake Farrel. See the system? 

FCS is an action economy upgrade. Arcdodge isn't exactly about that.

 

 

I see you saying you played local guys and won. That you found the Z swarms didn't work for them.  I've found the opposite.  You only mention that there aren't enough Z's to really be a swarm.  Potato, potato.  Call it Xizor and mini-swarm.  I can't really say why their mini swarms failed when I've done very well with mine, especially with blocking.  What you are saying doesn't exactly explain why it's not effective. 

 

To say that there are only 3 arc dodgers in the entire game of X-wing is wrong in my perspective.  A simple Tie Fighter can dodge arcs with a Barrel Roll.  They were the original Arc Dodgers before Soontir Fel and Jake Farrel were even in the game.  To dodge a firing arc, you simply need some sort of repositioning to then dodge the arc.   

 

Now, if you want to say those three pilots are THE BEST ARC DODGERS, then that's a statement I'll agree with.  Yes, they are very good.  They aren't the ONLY arc dodgers, though.  Xizor isn't on the same par as those three, but that doesn't mean he's bad at it. 

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I say Z swarm doesn't come close to true swarms in terms of damage output, and due to xizor eating up half of your points you're not even having the bodies for effective blocking of all lanes.

 

3 dice with focus+TL. Cool, for like HOW MUCH POINTS?

37 if you take the cheapest VI+FCS+AT xizor. 

A bit more and we get a FCS PTLing regening HORN. That's damage dealing. 

Xizor isn't. 

All attempts to joust with xizorswarm resulted in getting "swarm" blown to bits. And then xizor becomes fishfood. 

 

I say an arc dodger not only dodges the arc, but still gets his own shot.

So far I can name... 3 arcdodgers that are true to that definition.

Vader, Soontir, and Jake Farrel. See the system? 

FCS is an action economy upgrade. Arcdodge isn't exactly about that.

 

 

I see you saying you played local guys and won. That you found the Z swarms didn't work for them.  I've found the opposite.  You only mention that there aren't enough Z's to really be a swarm.  Potato, potato.  Call it Xizor and mini-swarm.  I can't really say why their mini swarms failed when I've done very well with mine, especially with blocking.  What you are saying doesn't exactly explain why it's not effective. 

 

To say that there are only 3 arc dodgers in the entire game of X-wing is wrong in my perspective.  A simple Tie Fighter can dodge arcs with a Barrel Roll.  They were the original Arc Dodgers before Soontir Fel and Jake Farrel were even in the game.  To dodge a firing arc, you simply need some sort of repositioning to then dodge the arc.   

 

Now, if you want to say those three pilots are THE BEST ARC DODGERS, then that's a statement I'll agree with.  Yes, they are very good.  They aren't the ONLY arc dodgers, though.  Xizor isn't on the same par as those three, but that doesn't mean he's bad at it. 

 

Not damaging enough to burst through aces, not enough bodies to block it all (Maybe if we take Farseer level precognition and can block exact ace final position with one of 5 Zs that even lack Barrelrolls and Boosts that is usually there on blockers like A-wings and Tie-lns

it can be done reliably... )

But same level precognition will work better in other lists, why spoil it on such as this?

 

You can give a goose chace and keep out of arc. But arcdodger is arcdodger because it reliably KEEPS the enemy in his own arc while leaving enemy arc.

Simple barrelroll can't reliably provide it, just as simple boost can't.

Both do.

 

There are three TRUE arcdodgers. Others are limited in their capabilities.

Maybe there will be four when tie adv prototype hits the shelves. 

If we take BatHorn (PTL, R1, Adv sensor, EU) he can be a true arcdodger as well, even more so. Exactly 2 things make him a true arcdodger.

One of them being a mimicking of Soontir's trademark 2-hard-green and the other being adv sensor. (and PS8)

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You take xizor and you're stuck with his "more ablative hulls" swarm builds. that don't really work good because it's not a true swarm, has measly damage output compared to TIE swarms of all three flavours,  and Xizor isn't a true damage dealer.

 

And if your opponent isn't dull, he'll wipe the floor with the screen and then look at Xizor who suddnly is an overpriced ****** with slim chances on victory, an ability that's not working any more. and PS7.

 

 

 

I don't think you really need a full Z swarm around Xizor to get the most out of his ability. I've found that 2 Z95s are more than enough to get Xizor where he needs to be to get some work done. This leaves 36 points or so to bring something else with some punch.

Even if you don't take the Zs, flying him near something that you would rather have your opponent target that is easier to hit is enough to keep them from focusing down Xizor in the early rounds when it's easy to have all your guns facing in once direction. 

 

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I've flown xizor a ton and never once used a Z-swarm with him.  As WWHSD said, you don't need a full swarm to use hisa bility, you just need a ship next to him to pass damage to.  I mostly flew him with 2 titled y-wings and a z95 blocker and had pretty good luck with it.  I've also flown him alongside a YV666 as something with lots of hull to pass damage off to.

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I was thinking of picking up another Decimator so I could run 4 Ruthless Omega Squadron Pilots.

 

Maybe that's a little much.

 

2 Ruthless Flechette Glaives would probably do it better.

 

Or Maybe Tractor Beams, so I could Bump Y-wings out past Range 3 or into Range 1 where they wouldn't get any shots.

Edited by Vulf

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I've played maybe 10 or so matches using Xizor. I think his ability has activated once and that was only because my opponent only had a shot at Xizor that round. Nobody bothers shooting Xizor (this was pre-TLT).

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