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WWHSD

Omega Leader, Juke, and Palpatine

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No "official" ruling (i.e. FAQ update), but Alex Davy has stated in emails that a ship that is TL'd by Omega Leader cannot use Palpatine to modify its dice. I'm hoping an updated FAQ will be released shortly as there have been many questions since the release of the TFA ships.

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No "official" ruling (i.e. FAQ update), but Alex Davy has stated in emails that a ship that is TL'd by Omega Leader cannot use Palpatine to modify its dice. I'm hoping an updated FAQ will be released shortly as there have been many questions since the release of the TFA ships.

 

I've seen this claimed but no one has actually been able to provide me a link to this email. I've had a couple of people point me to this post in the Omeage Leader PSA thread. It completely lacks any context, doesn't read like any email response I've ever seen from Alex or Frank and was posted by an account that currently has 6 posts on these boards (most of which seem to be in that thread).

 

 

 

 

 
Per Alex Davy : Yeah, it doesn't matter what the source of the modification is (whether Palpatine, Predator, or a Target Lock), Omega Leader shuts down all dice modifications.
 
As for the HLC, that one is being looked at currently.
 

 

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No "official" ruling (i.e. FAQ update), but Alex Davy has stated in emails that a ship that is TL'd by Omega Leader cannot use Palpatine to modify its dice. I'm hoping an updated FAQ will be released shortly as there have been many questions since the release of the TFA ships.

 

I've seen this claimed but no one has actually been able to provide me a link to this email. I've had a couple of people point me to this post in the Omeage Leader PSA thread. It completely lacks any context, doesn't read like any email response I've ever seen from Alex or Frank and was posted by an account that currently has 6 posts on these boards (most of which seem to be in that thread).

 

 

Per Alex Davy : Yeah, it doesn't matter what the source of the modification is (whether Palpatine, Predator, or a Target Lock), Omega Leader shuts down all dice modifications.

 
As for the HLC, that one is being looked at currently.
 

I agree the credibility is in question. The fact that this has been asked via email by several people within the past few days, and this particular 'ruling' was back in December also makes me wonder why none of us have had an email respsonse on something that is supposed to have been already decided on. Frank ruled on OL & HLC a week ago. Or has he realized that he'd made a ruling on an un-released product and decided to keep quiet until release?

 

I think I'll just keep an eye on my in-box for a bit longer.

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I just got a reply from Frank:

 

 

In response to your rules question:

 

Rules Question:

Does Omega Leader's ability prevent the Palpatine crew on a third ship from modifying the results of a ship that Omega Leader has locked?

 
Omega Leader’s ability does not prevent Emperor Palpatine’s ability from affecting a third ship that Omega Leader has locked. Unlike other abilities that change dice results, Emperor Palpatine’s ability does it rather than allowing that ship to change the dice result.

Along the same lines, is Omega Leader able to use Juke on a ship that he has target locked? In both cases it would seem that the modification would be permitted as Omega Leader's ability only prevents the ship that he has target locked from modifying results and these cards explicitly state that the ship possessing the upgrade in question is the one doing the modification.

 
Similarly, Omega Leader can use Juke on a ship it has locked. As you state, Omega Leader is modifying their dice not the ship itself.
 
Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
 
 
 
 
*Note: I added the bolding and coloring to make which parts of Frank's response were my question and which were his answer.
Edited by WWHSD

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I just got a reply from Frank:

 

 

In response to your rules question:[/size]

 

Rules Question:

Does Omega Leader's ability prevent the Palpatine crew on a third ship from modifying the results of a ship that Omega Leader has locked?

 

Omega Leader’s ability does not prevent Emperor Palpatine’s ability from affecting a third ship that Omega Leader has locked. Unlike other abilities that change dice results, Emperor Palpatine’s ability does it rather than allowing that ship to change the dice result.

Along the same lines, is Omega Leader able to use Juke on a ship that he has target locked? In both cases it would seem that the modification would be permitted as Omega Leader's ability only prevents the ship that he has target locked from modifying results and these cards explicitly state that the ship possessing the upgrade in question is the one doing the modification.

 

Similarly, Omega Leader can use Juke on a ship it has locked. As you state, Omega Leader is modifying their dice not the ship itself.

 

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

 

 

*Note: I added the bolding and coloring to make which parts of Frank's response were my question and which were his answer.

Hooray, rules consistency and also the emperor reigns supreme. Wonder if they'll cover this in the next faq for clarity's sake.

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Unlike other abilities that change dice results, Emperor Palpatine’s ability does it rather than allowing that ship to change the dice result.

This makes sense to me, the modification is coming from the Emperor and not the TL'ed ship, so OL's ability doesn't kick in.

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Unlike other abilities that change dice results, Emperor Palpatine’s ability does it rather than allowing that ship to change the dice result.

This makes sense to me, the modification is coming from the Emperor and not the TL'ed ship, so OL's ability doesn't kick in.

 

 

The interaction seemed pretty clear to me once I took the time to look at what the cards were instructing me to do instead of doing what I assumed that they did. If this would have gone the other way I would have to start questioning how to interpret "you" on a lot of other cards.

Edited by WWHSD

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The interaction seemed pretty clear to me once I took the time to look at what the cards were instructing me to do instead of doing what I assumed that they did.

This is a somewhat tricky situation... Because I think it's the only case where you have a 3rd party that can can modify dice, or at least I can't think of any others.

So that naturally makes the whole thing a little bit more muddy.

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Well I asked and got a somewhat more abbreviated answer:

In response to your rules question:

Rules Question:
Omega Leader has target locked an enemy TIE Interceptor and attacks it. The defender cannot modify the attack dice or the defense dice, but can Emperor Palpatine (friendly to the Interceptor) on a Lambda shuttle, change a result? Also, can Omega Leader (with an evade token) use Juke to modify the Interceptor's dice? Thanks

 

Omega Leader’s ability does not prevent Omega Leader from using Juke against a ship it has locked. It also does not prevent Emperor Palpatine on another ship from modifying the locked ship’s dice.

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

...which did surprise me a little, as it was just a straight ruling with no explanation. Upon reading the reply WWHSD got, I can see Frank's logic and how he came to that ruling. 

It's still the defending ship's dice getting modified, but it appears that an outside source of that modification is allowed, just not a modification from the defender himself.

 

So it seems I was wrong on this occasion. I guess you live and learn.

Edited by Parravon

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So does this open up Pandora's box for every 'modification' from a third source such as howlrunner or serrisu?

 

It does permit every modification made by a third source. Neither Howlrunner or Serissu do that. They both specify that it is the the ship that rolled the dice that is making the modification. Outside of Palpatine, I can't think of any effects from friendly third targets that modify results.

Howlrunner:

Howlrunner.png

 

 

 

Serissu:

 

Serissu.png

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Seeing those two, it's hard not to get the feeling that Palatine was only worded as "you" instead of "they" in order to clarify the once-per-turn restriction, and it's now come back to haunt us.

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Seeing those two, it's hard not to get the feeling that Palatine was only worded as "you" instead of "they" in order to clarify the once-per-turn restriction, and it's now come back to haunt us.

 

I don't see how it is haunting us. The card is very clearly worded and there isn't really anything ambiguous about how it should interact with the rules. It's not like letting Palpatine get around Omega Leader's ability is gamebreaking or particularly unfair. 

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Allowing palpable to modify dice against OL means you should allow howlrunner rerolls. If you can honestly say "it's not the target locked ship palping" then I'm going to say it's not the target locked ship it's howlrunner rerolling. I'll say the same thing for serissu. As both of these seem ridiculous as a loophole in the my ships not modifying dice, so is palp.

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Allowing palpable to modify dice against OL means you should allow howlrunner rerolls. If you can honestly say "it's not the target locked ship palping" then I'm going to say it's not the target locked ship it's howlrunner rerolling. I'll say the same thing for serissu. As both of these seem ridiculous as a loophole in the my ships not modifying dice, so is palp.

This is one of those intricate little webs that wordsmiths like to weave. 

Palp says "you" (meaning him) may change a friendly ship's die result. Palp retains ownership of the modification.

Howlrunner and Serissu both say when another friendly ship at Range 1... "it" may reroll...

But Howlrunner and Serissu both specify the other ship to do the modification. 

It all falls back to ownership of the modification and because Palp isn't on OL's target locked ship, he can do it, while Howlrunner and Serissu can't.

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My problem with the ruling being made based on the involvement of a third party is the needless over complicating of the issue. By this logic, why doesn't a HLC shot have its crits modded to hits? It's not the defender doing that modification, it's a third party upgrade.

It seems like a needless over complication to babysit ace wing players who are terrified that soontir might actually have a ship he has to worry about. The intent of OL's ability is clear; when he has you locked what you roll is what you get. Rules lawyer it all you want but I really hope frank and Alex get together and rule on the simple answer that sets precident for any future upgrades that appear in a similar vain to the emporers.

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My problem with the ruling being made based on the involvement of a third party is the needless over complicating of the issue. By this logic, why doesn't a HLC shot have its crits modded to hits? It's not the defender doing that modification, it's a third party upgrade.

 

Heavy Laser Cannon says:

 

Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change all your [critical hit] results to [hit] results.

 

The bolded word is the important one. The HLC directs the ship it is on to change the results, in much the same way Howlrunner and Serissu direct the ship receiving their ability to change the results.

 

Palpatine doesn't work like that. He directs his ship to change the result. Provided his ship is not the defender of Omega Leader's target locked attack, then there is nothing she can do about it. Both abilities are very specific.

 

Rules lawyer it all you want but I really hope frank and Alex get together and rule on the simple answer that sets precident for any future upgrades that appear in a similar vain to the emporers.

 

This is the simple answer. To rule it any other way goes against the way the cards are worded, which would make resolving any future cards like Palpatine an absolute nightmare. Not everything has to be FAQ'd to work in the "obvious" way. Sometimes the interactions get a little bit more complex, but that does not mean they are inherently wrong.

 

By way of example, I refer you to Heavy Laser Cannons and rerolls. Every player I've ever met has immediately assumed that any rerolled critical hits are converted to hits, which is incorrect and can be shown to be incorrect when you look deeper at how the card works.

 

This is a similar situation. The immediate, obvious assumption is that Palpatine doesn't work. I even made that assumption myself and played it that way initially. But if you stop and actually read the cards, it's clearly wrong.

Edited by DR4CO

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It seems like a needless over complication to babysit ace wing players who are terrified that soontir might actually have a ship he has to worry about. The intent of OL's ability is clear; when he has you locked what you roll is what you get. Rules lawyer it all you want but I really hope frank and Alex get together and rule on the simple answer that sets precident for any future upgrades that appear in a similar vain to the emporers.

 

It's obvious you have a bias. I'd argue that you are the one trying to "rules lawyer" things by trying to interpret cards to fit your view of how you think the game should work instead of looking for to use the clearest and most rules consistent interpretations. 

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A lot of people are basing their opinion about how it should work, by completely ignoring what the cards actually say. Something DR4CO points out so well... We do what the cards say to do, not what we think they should say to do.

The ruling for Palp and HLC are actually the only ruling they could make, without errata, or another 'it works this way because we say so' ruling.

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It's obvious you have a bias.

Yeah the whole "to babysit ace wing players" makes it fairly clear that he has an agenda.

I wonder why we always hear complaints about 'acewing' and 'boostwing' but not 'genericwing' or 'swarmwing' or recently 'crackwing'.

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