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Omega Leader, Juke, and Palpatine

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Is the best way to get a response from FFG on rules questions to use the form at https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ or to email Frank and Alex directly?

 

I just submitted this question via the form:

 

"Does Omega Leader's ability prevent the Palpatine crew on a third ship from modifying the results of a ship that Omega Leader has locked? Along the same lines, is Omega Leader able to use Juke on a ship that he has target locked?

 
In both cases it would seem that the modification would be permitted as Omega Leader's ability only prevents the ship that he has target locked from modifying results and these cards explicitly state that the ship possessing the upgrade in question is the one doing the modification. "

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Is the best way to get a response from FFG on rules questions to use the form at https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ or to email Frank and Alex directly?

 

I just submitted this question via the form:

 

"Does Omega Leader's ability prevent the Palpatine crew on a third ship from modifying the results of a ship that Omega Leader has locked?

This one's been answered in another email that's floating around somewhere. Sorry I couldn't find a reference quickly. But the answer appears to be "Yes, Omega Leader stops Palpatine from modifying dice on OL's target, even if Palpatine is on another ship." Perhaps we'll get a FAQ clarification stating that the dice modification is considered to come from the ship whose dice are being modified, rather than from the ship that has equipped Palpatine.

Along the same lines, is Omega Leader able to use Juke on a ship that he has target locked?

 

In both cases it would seem that the modification would be permitted as Omega Leader's ability only prevents the ship that he has target locked from modifying results and these cards explicitly state that the ship possessing the upgrade in question is the one doing the modification. "

That's definitely the case for Juke. Omega Leader doesn't stop himself from modifying dice.

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Is the best way to get a response from FFG on rules questions to use the form at https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ or to email Frank and Alex directly? I just submitted this question via the form: "Does Omega Leader's ability prevent the Palpatine crew on a third ship from modifying the results of a ship that Omega Leader has locked?

This one's been answered in another email that's floating around somewhere. Sorry I couldn't find a reference quickly. But the answer appears to be "Yes, Omega Leader stops Palpatine from modifying dice on OL's target, even if Palpatine is on another ship." Perhaps we'll get a FAQ clarification stating that the dice modification is considered to come from the ship whose dice are being modified, rather than from the ship that has equipped Palpatine.

Along the same lines, is Omega Leader able to use Juke on a ship that he has target locked? In both cases it would seem that the modification would be permitted as Omega Leader's ability only prevents the ship that he has target locked from modifying results and these cards explicitly state that the ship possessing the upgrade in question is the one doing the modification. "

That's definitely the case for Juke. Omega Leader doesn't stop himself from modifying dice.

If Omega Leader stops one he should stop both as the interactions are the same mechanically.

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If Omega Leader stops one he should stop both as the interactions are the same mechanically.

 

Agreed. It's not "the attacking/defending ship can't have its dice modified in any way." Also, it's Emperor ******* Palpatine.

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Omega Leader stops the defender's modifications. He stops HLC from changing crits back to hits. He stops evade tokens adding results. Palpatine is just another modification and as such OL stops that too. The fact that Palpatine is on a different ship is irrelevant, because his ability is modifying the defender's dice, which OL stops.

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Palpatine is on another ship. Omega Leader only stops the target locked ship from modifying.

 

Emperor Palpatine's ship is the one doing the modification. Omega Leader does nothing to stop Lambda Shuttle Palpatine from modifying a different ship's dice.

 

 

va25Rml.pngtrRNhnV.png  vtm2Vds.pngfP1NqGY.png

 

These faq emails are increasingly looking like a hoax. But maybe they were just bad calls. Or a big errata is on the way to the rules reference. As they are now, they contradict current rules.

 

But whatever, I'm sure people already have their minds made up.

Edited by Vulf

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Omega Leader stops the defender's modifications. He stops HLC from changing crits back to hits. He stops evade tokens adding results. Palpatine is just another modification and as such OL stops that too. The fact that Palpatine is on a different ship is irrelevant, because his ability is modifying the defender's dice, which OL stops.

 

Omega Leader's ability prevents the ship he has target locked from modifying dice (and only when it is either the attacking Omega Leader or defending against him). That's not the same thing as preventing that ship's dice from being modified.

 

If Omega Leader prevents his target's dice from being modified it would also prevent Omega Leader from using Juke to modify those dice.

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These faq emails are increasingly looking like a hoax. But maybe they were just bad calls. Or a big errata is on the way to the rules reference. As they are now, they contradict current rules.

 

I haven't actually seen an email ruling on this. I see a lot of people saying they saw something but can't find it. The one I have seen is a very general response from Alex Davy that includes Palpatine in with a bunch of other things and declares that they are all modifications. 

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Omega Leader stops the defender's modifications. He stops HLC from changing crits back to hits. He stops evade tokens adding results. Palpatine is just another modification and as such OL stops that too. The fact that Palpatine is on a different ship is irrelevant, because his ability is modifying the defender's dice, which OL stops.

 

Omega Leader's ability prevents the ship he has target locked from modifying dice (and only when it is either the attacking Omega Leader or defending against him). That's not the same thing as preventing that ship's dice from being modified.

 

If Omega Leader prevents his target's dice from being modified it would also prevent Omega Leader from using Juke to modify those dice.

 

I understand that the target lock is required in order to prevent OL's attacker or defender from modifying their dice. I assumed that was already a stated fact in the discussion.

 

I don't however understand how you come to the second conclusion. That if OL has a target locked, then neither can modify any dice. His ability clearly states "Enemy ships... cannot modify any dice...". If OL is using Juke, he's the one modifying the dice, not the enemy ship. OL can still modify dice as his ability says nothing about denying him the ability to modify, only the enemy ship he has locked.

 

 

Palpatine is on another ship. Omega Leader only stops the target locked ship from modifying.

 

Emperor Palpatine's ship is the one doing the modification. Omega Leader does nothing to stop Lambda Shuttle Palpatine from modifying a different ship's dice.

 

 

va25Rml.pngtrRNhnV.png  vtm2Vds.pngfP1NqGY.png

 

These faq emails are increasingly looking like a hoax. But maybe they were just bad calls. Or a big errata is on the way to the rules reference. As they are now, they contradict current rules.

 

But whatever, I'm sure people already have their minds made up.

The Emperor (assuming he's opposing OL) cannot modify OL's target ship's dice (and we're assuming OL has a TL here). It doesn't matter if he's on a different ship. He's still attempting to modify THAT ship's die rolls. Did Palpatine's ship make the initial roll? No, he didn't. If Palp was the target ship of OL, he still couldn't do anything, because Palp's ability is a die modification.

And quoting the Card Ability section adds no weight here. Palp's ability allows him to change (modify) another ship's roll, which is the roll that cannot be modified due to OL.

 

The bottom line is: OL with a target lock can attack and modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the defender's dice. The defender gets to roll and that's it. If an OL target locked ship attacks OL, they get to roll attack dice and nothing more, and OL gets to modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the attacker's dice.

 

But at the end of the day he's only got 2 attack dice and can only take four hits, so he's going to be powerful, but short-lived.

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Omega Leader's ability prevents the ship he has target locked from modifying dice (and only when it is either the attacking Omega Leader or defending against him). That's not the same thing as preventing that ship's dice from being modified.

 

If Omega Leader prevents his target's dice from being modified it would also prevent Omega Leader from using Juke to modify those dice.

 

 

I understand that the target lock is required in order to prevent OL's attacker or defender from modifying their dice. I assumed that was already a stated fact in the discussion.

 

I don't however understand how you come to the second conclusion. That if OL has a target locked, then neither can modify any dice. His ability clearly states "Enemy ships... cannot modify any dice...". If OL is using Juke, he's the one modifying the dice, not the enemy ship. OL can still modify dice as his ability says nothing about denying him the ability to modify, only the enemy ship he has locked.

 

The Emperor (assuming he's opposing OL) cannot modify OL's target ship's dice (and we're assuming OL has a TL here). It doesn't matter if he's on a different ship. He's still attempting to modify THAT ship's die rolls. Did Palpatine's ship make the initial roll? No, he didn't. If Palp was the target ship of OL, he still couldn't do anything, because Palp's ability is a die modification.

And quoting the Card Ability section adds no weight here. Palp's ability allows him to change (modify) another ship's roll, which is the roll that cannot be modified due to OL.

 

The bottom line is: OL with a target lock can attack and modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the defender's dice. The defender gets to roll and that's it. If an OL target locked ship attacks OL, they get to roll attack dice and nothing more, and OL gets to modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the attacker's dice.

 

But at the end of the day he's only got 2 attack dice and can only take four hits, so he's going to be powerful, but short-lived.

 

 

He's illustrating a point.

Some people are claiming that Palpatine can't be used to modify the Target Locked Ship's dice.

Palpatine Ship is a different ship.

The Target Locked Ship is the only one that can't modify dice.

If you are saying that a different ship (Palpatine) can't modify Target Locked Ship's dice, then of course Omega Leader with Juke can't modify those dice either.

Because you are essentially saying Target Locked Ship's dice can't be modified by anything.

 

 

 

Those people, and you, are wrong, of course.

 

Omega Leader's ability doesn't say "other ships can not modify the dice of the ship you have target locked."

The only ship that is not allowed to modify dice is the one you have target locked.

 

The rules reference is pretty clear. Lambda Shuttle with Palpatine can modify other ship's dice. "You" on Palpatine's card refers to the shuttle he is equipped on.

Lambda Shuttle can modify the dice of the Target Locked Ship. (as long as it isn't himself)

 

Lambda Palpatine is the one doing the dice modify. He is unaffected by Omega Leader's ability. The Target Locked Ship is having his dice modified, but he isn't doing it himself.

 

If they wanted it to work the way you think it does, it would be worded differently. It would have to say "enemy player" or "opponent" instead of target locked ship.

What is more convincing? The actual rules reference from the FFG X-wing site, or an unverified reddit thread based on an unverified email?

Edited by Vulf

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No, it just doesn't work like that. 

 

OL fires at a locked ship, that ship cannot modify the results, regardless of the source of the modification. Palp is not rolling dice, he's attempting to modify the defender's dice and simply can't.

 

I'm feeling inclined to email FFG about this one just to clarify it once and for all, but judging by your previous posts, I doubt you'd believe the email was legit if I posted the reply here.

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No, it just doesn't work like that. 

 

OL fires at a locked ship, that ship cannot modify the results, regardless of the source of the modification. Palp is not rolling dice, he's attempting to modify the defender's dice and simply can't.

 

I'm feeling inclined to email FFG about this one just to clarify it once and for all, but judging by your previous posts, I doubt you'd believe the email was legit if I posted the reply here.

But Palpatine explicitly says that the ship he is on is modifying the roll.

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I don't however understand how you come to the second conclusion. That if OL has a target locked, then neither can modify any dice. His ability clearly states "Enemy ships... cannot modify any dice...". If OL is using Juke, he's the one modifying the dice, not the enemy ship. OL can still modify dice as his ability says nothing about denying him the ability to modify, only the enemy ship he has locked.

 

 

Vulf is right, I'm trying to illustrate a point. I also asked the question in the way that I did so that hopefully whoever at FFG gives me an answer sees that if they rule that one doesn't work they'll need to rule that neither of them work or come up with some sort rules contortions to explain it.

 

 

 

The Emperor (assuming he's opposing OL) cannot modify OL's target ship's dice (and we're assuming OL has a TL here). It doesn't matter if he's on a different ship. He's still attempting to modify THAT ship's die rolls. Did Palpatine's ship make the initial roll? No, he didn't. If Palp was the target ship of OL, he still couldn't do anything, because Palp's ability is a die modification.

And quoting the Card Ability section adds no weight here. Palp's ability allows him to change (modify) another ship's roll, which is the roll that cannot be modified due to OL.

 

You're right, Palpatine's ability is a die modification. If he was on a ship that was affected by Omega Leader's ability it absolutely wouldn't work. In the example I'm using he isn't, so Omega Leader's ability shouldn't apply to him. You keep asserting that Omega Leader's ability prevents the results from being modified but that's not what the card you linked says it is. The card only prevents a single ship on the board from modifying those rolls, and that ship isn't the one with Palpatine on it.

 

The card ability section is very relevant here. It makes clear that the work "you" on Palpatine means that the modification is being done by a ship other than the one that rolled the dice.

 

 

The bottom line is: OL with a target lock can attack and modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the defender's dice. The defender gets to roll and that's it. If an OL target locked ship attacks OL, they get to roll attack dice and nothing more, and OL gets to modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the attacker's dice.

 

You just finished explaining that the roll can't be modified and then you claim that Omega Leader can modify the roll. What is it about Omega Leader that makes him an exception and permits him to modify the dice? I don't see anything that makes him any different than the ship Palpatine is on in respect to his ability.  

 

Both Juke and Palpatine should work according to the rules. You seem to get why Juke works, I don't understand why you don't accept that Palpatine works the same way. The only "enemy ship" that has any restriction on modifying dice is the one that Omega Leader has target locked.

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These faq emails are increasingly looking like a hoax. But maybe they were just bad calls. Or a big errata is on the way to the rules reference. As they are now, they contradict current rules.

 

But whatever, I'm sure people already have their minds made up.

 

Sure, it could be a hoax, but why would multiple different people conspire to such an end? Seems quite ridiculous, especially as these people are not hiding behind the relative anonymity of a forum account.

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The bottom line is: OL with a target lock can attack and modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the defender's dice. The defender gets to roll and that's it. If an OL target locked ship attacks OL, they get to roll attack dice and nothing more, and OL gets to modify whatever he likes (via token or upgrade ability) to his dice or the attacker's dice.

 

You just finished explaining that the roll can't be modified and then you claim that Omega Leader can modify the roll. What is it about Omega Leader that makes him an exception and permits him to modify the dice? I don't see anything that makes him any different than the ship Palpatine is on in respect to his ability.  

 

Both Juke and Palpatine should work according to the rules. You seem to get why Juke works, I don't understand why you don't accept that Palpatine works the same way. The only "enemy ship" that has any restriction on modifying dice is the one that Omega Leader has target locked.

 

Assuming Omega Leader is attacking with his target lock in place, then the defender cannot modify any dice, as per Omega Leader's text "Enemy ships...etc". There's nothing in Omega Leader's ability that stops himself from modifying the defender's roll.

 

You seem to be hung up on my argument being the roll can't be modified by anyone. Which is incorrect. I haven't stated that at all.

My argument is: the defender cannot modify either Omega Leader's, or his own dice roll. And Palpatine is making a modification to that defender's roll.

I'm just not buying the "but Palpatine's on a different ship, so he's NOT the defender" as being grounds to allow the modification to the defender's dice roll.

And the same would follow if the roles were reversed and Omega Leader is getting attacked. The attacker would not be able to modify either Omega Leader's or his own dice roll.

 

I understand that Juke works, but not because it's from another ship. It's because Omega Leader has Juke and his ability only stops Enemy ships from modifying, not himself.

 

I'm not trying to be obstinate or obtuse. I can see your side of the argument, and I can see your logic. I just don't agree with it. That said, I've emailed FFG to see what they say. So instead of endlessly running this one round in circles, can we wait for an official word? :)

Edited by Parravon

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Nowhere in Omega Leader's ability does it refer to the defender.

 

It says ship.

 

The target locked ship is the ONLY thing that can not modify dice rolls when attacking or defending against Omega Leader.

A ship modifies its own dice by using its own target lock or its own focus token or its own special ability.

Palpatinne Shuttle is a different ship. It's another ship with an ability. It is not the target locked ship. Omega Leader does absolutely nothing to prevent Palpatine-shuttle from using his own ability to modify the target locked ships dice.

 

It is not the defender or the player or the opponent that modifies dice in this game. Dice are modified by ships.

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It is not the defender or the player or the opponent that modifies dice in this game. Dice are modified by ships.

Really? So we're going around again? You've stated your argument. More than once. And I've accepted your stand on it. I just disagree with it. But you're adamant that you must be right and I must be wrong, to the point of clutching at straws with the terminology.

 

Page 3: Modify Attack Dice: The defender can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the attack dice. Then the attacker can modify his attack dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible...

Also Page 3: Modify Defense Dice: The attacker can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the defense dice. Then the defender can modify his defense dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible...

Page 13: MODIFYING DICE: Players can modify dice by spending focus, evade, and target lock tokens and by resolving card abilities.

 

It seems the rules disagree with you, as do I.

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No they don't the first 2 are clearly the defender. The third says player. Palatine falls under this and the rule that cards can supersede the rules. Palatine can modify another ships die result. It clearly states so on his card. So he is not he defender and therefore is not blocked by Omega Leaders ability.

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It is not the defender or the player or the opponent that modifies dice in this game. Dice are modified by ships.

Really? So we're going around again? You've stated your argument. More than once. And I've accepted your stand on it. I just disagree with it. But you're adamant that you must be right and I must be wrong, to the point of clutching at straws with the terminology.

 

Page 3: Modify Attack Dice: The defender can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the attack dice. Then the attacker can modify his attack dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible...

Also Page 3: Modify Defense Dice: The attacker can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the defense dice. Then the defender can modify his defense dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible...

Page 13: MODIFYING DICE: Players can modify dice by spending focus, evade, and target lock tokens and by resolving card abilities.

 

It seems the rules disagree with you, as do I.

 

 

There's just this:

 

9hkAToz.pngADf3S6l.png

 

Sure, the player is the one that uses his hand to flip over cards and move tokens around, but the Defender is the one doing the modify. And the Defender is the ship.

 

Even if Omega Leader's ability said Defender instead of ship, it still wouldn't stop Palpatine on a different ship from modifying those dice.

Edited by Vulf

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Has there been an official ruling on the Palpatine issue yet? My interpretation from reading the cards is that Vulf is correct, but I'd like to see a confirmation from FFG.

 

It's tournament season and these are increasingly popular cards. Settling this should be a priority.

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Has there been an official ruling on the Palpatine issue yet? My interpretation from reading the cards is that Vulf is correct, but I'd like to see a confirmation from FFG.

 

It's tournament season and these are increasingly popular cards. Settling this should be a priority.

 

They haven't replied to me yet. I'll post it here if they ever do.

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