Navigator Powers

[Snog Boggen 0]

So what's the action for Navigator Powers?  I've been ruling they're a full action due to how powerful they are in combat, but it seems like opening your eye should be somewhat quicker than that.  Half-action maybe?  Have I missed the passages that outline this in the rules? Thanks.

[ZeeL2 0]

Standard Action, p179 under the "Using Navigator Powers" section.  "Unless otherwise noted, using a Navigator Power is a Standard Action".  So it's the same as a Standard Attack - a half action.

[Bilateralrope 144]

Zeel said:

Standard Action, p179 under the "Using Navigator Powers" section.  "Unless otherwise noted, using a Navigator Power is a Standard Action".  So it's the same as a Standard Attack - a half action.

 

Since when could something that counts as a half action also count as a standard action ?

I'm going with them taking a full action to cast.

[N0-1_H3r3 287]

Bilateralrope said:

 

Since when could something that counts as a half action also count as a standard action ?

Possibly because there's no such thing as a 'Standard Action" according to the rules - actions come in four varieties: Reactions, Free Actions, Half Actions and Full Actions.

Define which one of those is meant by the term 'Standard Action".

 

[ZeeL2 0]

Yep.  The only thing that's a standard anything is a standard attack - and that's a half action.  Using a navigator power sounds less involved than a full action, hence I'd say it's a half action too.

[Bilateralrope 144]

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Bilateralrope said:

 

 

Since when could something that counts as a half action also count as a standard action ?

 

Possibly because there's no such thing as a 'Standard Action" according to the rules - actions come in four varieties: Reactions, Free Actions, Half Actions and Full Actions.

Define which one of those is meant by the term 'Standard Action".

 

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Bilateralrope said:

 

 

Since when could something that counts as a half action also count as a standard action ?

 

Possibly because there's no such thing as a 'Standard Action" according to the rules - actions come in four varieties: Reactions, Free Actions, Half Actions and Full Actions.

Define which one of those is meant by the term 'Standard Action".

 

 

A standard action is an action without anything special about it. So I'd go with the one which could be easily described as just an 'action', which would be the full action.

The word half in half action is much more important to the meaning than the word full in full action.

[Bilateralrope 144]

Zeel said:

Yep.  The only thing that's a standard anything is a standard attack - and that's a half action.  Using a navigator power sounds less involved than a full action, hence I'd say it's a half action too.

Zeel said:

Yep.  The only thing that's a standard anything is a standard attack - and that's a half action.  Using a navigator power sounds less involved than a full action, hence I'd say it's a half action too.

 

But a standard attack is a type of an action. Why are you focusing on the word 'standard' more than the word 'action' ?

 

Especially when there is nothing to say that using a power counts as an attack, meaning that a navigator could use a power and attack in the same turn.

 

Then there are powers like foreshaddowing that specifically state that their effect is on the following turn. If it was a half action ability, why isn't the wording more like "until the end of your next turn"

[Cifer 211]

I'd assume Half Action as well, with the "standard" action meaning it's supposed to be counted as a standard attack for purposes of dual half action restrictions.

[Bilateralrope 144]

Why are you focusing on the word standard over the word action ?

Players get 1 action a turn.

 

Where in the rogue trader rulebook does it say that a half-action psychic power counts as an attack ?

I know it is in the Dark Heresy errata. But I haven't seen anything about it in the Rogue Trader rules.

 

You will note that the psychic power forshaddow (page 169) has the wording "until the end of your next turn" and is stated as a half action power. If the navigator power forshaddowing is only a half action power, why does it have the wording "on his following turn" instead of "until the end of your next turn" ?

 

When someone says "a standard x", I don't except them to mean "half of x" or "a standard y". For example you go into some pub and notice that they sell a "standard glass of beer" and the size of the glass is very obvious. Do you expect this to be a full glass of beer or a half glass of beer?

[Varnias Tybalt 3]

Bilateralrope said:

When someone says "a standard x", I don't except them to mean "half of x" or "a standard y". For example you go into some pub and notice that they sell a "standard glass of beer" and the size of the glass is very obvious. Do you expect this to be a full glass of beer or a half glass of beer?

That's not an appropriate analogy. This is a game, not a pub.

No, there is no such thing as a "standard action" described in the rules. There are Free Actions, Half Actions, Full Actions and Reactions. If we look over all the Combat Actions there is one called "STANDARD attack", and it entails making an attack with either a melee or ranged weapon. A STANDARD attack is considered a half-action.

Hence it would be safe to assume that a "STANDARD action" is considered a half action as well. You really can't see the relevance in that?

[Bilateralrope 144]

Varnias Tybalt said:

 

Bilateralrope said:

 

When someone says "a standard x", I don't except them to mean "half of x" or "a standard y". For example you go into some pub and notice that they sell a "standard glass of beer" and the size of the glass is very obvious. Do you expect this to be a full glass of beer or a half glass of beer?

 

 

That's not an appropriate analogy. This is a game, not a pub.

No, there is no such thing as a "standard action" described in the rules. There are Free Actions, Half Actions, Full Actions and Reactions. If we look over all the Combat Actions there is one called "STANDARD attack", and it entails making an attack with either a melee or ranged weapon. A STANDARD attack is considered a half-action.

Hence it would be safe to assume that a "STANDARD action" is considered a half action as well. You really can't see the relevance in that?

 

 

 

How does the beer analogy not fit ?

It fits because it is a situation where "free glass of beer", "half glass of beer" and "full glass of beer" are defined, "standard glass of beer" is not. But people still have some idea as to what to expect from a standard glass.

 

Lets add a bit more to that analogy. The pub also offers a drink labelled as a "standard mixer" which only fills half the beer glass. Your argument is that because the standard mixer only fills half the beer glass, the standard glass of beer must also only fill half the beer glass because they both have the word standard.

 

Lets try some word substitution.

Varnias Tybalt said:

 

No, there is no such thing as a "standard glass of beer" described on the menu. There are Free Glasses of beer, Half Glasses of beer and Full glasses of beer. If we look over all the other drinks there is one called "STANDARD mixer", and it entails filling the glass halfwa. A STANDARD mixer is considered a half-glass.

Hence it would be safe to assume that a "STANDARD glass of beer" is considered a half glass as well. You really can't see the relevance in that?

 

I also note that you skipped my point about the foreshadowing power.

 

[merashin 0]

it's because the only place standard shows up is in the standard attack, nowhere is anything said with the word standard and full action, but there is for half action. Lets try it this way. Which action is the most commonly used in the game? Half, it is used to move, attack (in general), draw weapons, and use some psychic powers.

Now for your analogy, i don't believe that glasses of beer accurately describes it. It should be how much you drink from that glass in one go. You have a full glass of beer and can divide it up into a couple of drinks, sipping it as much as you want, or chugging it all in one go. Which would you call the standard?

[Little Dave 0]

Before we get confused by beer, I think this is an important question to put directly to the writers. Ultimately we need to know whether they are half actions, full actions, or half actions which count as an attack (so you cannot use another attack action that round).

I personally think the latter as it sounds like the 'standard action' has crept in from things such as DnD, but we don't know what inspired the standard.

[MILLANDSON 306]

Given that psychic powers count as an attack, I would imagine that Navigator powers would do also.

[ItsUncertainWho 3]

 

 

Seeing as how Navigators in game terms are considered Psykers, then Navigator Powers = Psyker powers = Attack action.

Seemed straight forward to me.

 

[Varnias Tybalt 3]

Bilateralrope said:

How does the beer analogy not fit ?

It doesn't fit because this is a game with a system of rules. Rules that are supposed to be immune to personal expectations (at least before any GM fiat take place), and rules that serve explanations with the different terms so there's not supposed to be any confusion due to individual expectations.

So a more correct analogy would be a pub with a beer menu, where the menu explains what the different terms for the different kinds of beer means. Although some of the terms have been omitted due to the inadequacy of the menu writer, but since the menu reveals enough information about the several kinds of beer and they share some similarity to eachother, one can easily determine what the more "fuzzy" descriptions mean...

[Malkavianmadman 0]

i agree with the Navigator Powers = Psyker powers = Attack action thing. But as long as your consistent it shouldn't matter.  so if you say that navi powers are full round, then they are always full round etc.

[Bilateralrope 144]

MILLANDSON said:

Given that psychic powers count as an attack, I would imagine that Navigator powers would do also.

MILLANDSON said:

Given that psychic powers count as an attack, I would imagine that Navigator powers would do also.

Where in the Rogue Trader rulebook do you get this from ?

 

Not that it really matters here because my point about foreshaddowing applies to all half action tests. Including ones like psyniscience after getting warp sense.

[Bilateralrope 144]

Gah. This forum keeps eating my replies.

 

So I'll leave you guys with some questions:

If a standard attack was instead called a basic attack, how would you define a standard action ?

My method of looking for whichever action length has the closest meaning to 'action' would still work.

 

Why do you think that the length of a standard attack comes mainly from the word standard, instead of from the word attack ?

 

Why is the wording of the foreshadowing power strange for a half-action power ?

[Bilateralrope 144]

I contacted FFG and found out that I was wrong. Then the forum swallowed my first concession post.

[Thaddius2 0]

We are playing that navigator powers are a half-action.  A "Standard Action" is a move action, or a single attack which equals half-action per the rules in the core book of DH and RT. 

 Last night I moved in front of my party and removed my third eye cover for some lidless stare action, 2 half-actions since it's not a concentration skill.

[Pandadan 0]

I didn't notice it in the RT book, but I would be inclined to call a "Standard Action" a Standard Attack, Focus Power, or Navigator Power action, and that no two standard actions can be performed in one combat round (in line with the Dark Heresy errata on the Focus Power action).

[kelvingreen 0]

Bilateralrope said:

I contacted FFG and found out that I was wrong. Then the forum swallowed my first concession post.

Do you mean that navigator powers are indeed a half action? Would you mind posting the FFG response?