A defence analysis of the Galactic Civil War

[Gadge 4,294]

See what happens when you 'study' the GCW as if it were a real campaign/war.

 

 

I thought this was brilliant

 

http://angrystaffofficer.com/2015/11/17/center-for-galactic-lessons-learned/

[Robin Graves 6,054]

Yes, the ewoks saved the rebels' bacon, but that was Lucas intention all along. (primitive vs tech)

 

 

Something just occured to me: The empire (and the rebellion) has no artillery units! AT-ATs are siege/apc at best. If they had artillery they could have landed them away from the base and just shell the shield generators into oblivion.

 

Or they could have sent some Tie- bombers down for some low altitude bombing, but since the battle of Hoth happens before  ep VII I'm gonna asume TIEs weren't designed for action in a planet's atmosphere.

 

Also, why doesn't the empire have acces to/use X-wings or B-wings? The x-wing can operate far more independantly than TIEs, so they would make for great ambushers to catch rebs who were looking for star destroyers.

[DariusAPB 6,925]

Um... Wouldn't the ability to turbolaser a base from orbit render artillery obsolete? I mean ok, the EU had artillery vehicles, TCW even shows them but turbolaser barraging does the job.

[Gadge 4,294]

The imperials dont use xwings/bwings/awings etc because the incom design team defected to the rebellion taking all the research and scehamtics with them.     B wings and A wings were being designed then too.

 

The other thematic reason given in a lot of books is that the empire is vast and they need a cheap , easy to maintain and disposable fighter like the TIE series

 

Its the AK47 of starfighters.      The T65 is more like the L85a2...   top class incredibly accurate assault rifle but you need to know how to take care of it...  treat it like an AK and it *will* fail you

 

 

edit: there are also soviet/western analogies in the fighter design.

 

Rebel fighters have cockpits with life support and all the gubbins...   Tie are not life supporting (or never used to be) meaning the pilot needed a sealed suit and air supply.

 

Back in the 70 NATO tanks had cushioned crew stations and handy stuff like kettles in them to make tea... soviet tanks were quite crude (but effective) and rather than pad the vehicle they padded the crew member with a big cushioned cloth helmet

Edited January 14, 2016 by Gadge

[Robin Graves 6,054]

Um... Wouldn't the ability to turbolaser a base from orbit render artillery obsolete? I mean ok, the EU had artillery vehicles, TCW even shows them but turbolaser barraging does the job.

 

Turbolasering stuff from orbit would make a lot of things obsolete. (TIE bombers for one)

[Robin Graves 6,054]

The imperials dont use xwings/bwings/awings etc because the incom design team defected to the rebellion taking all the research and scehamtics with them.     B wings and A wings were being designed then too.

 

The other thematic reason given in a lot of books is that the empire is vast and they need a cheap , easy to maintain and disposable fighter like the TIE series

 

Its the AK47 of starfighters.      The T65 is more like the L85a2...   top class incredibly accurate assault rifle but you need to know how to take care of it...  treat it like an AK and it *will* fail you

 

 

edit: there are also soviet/western analogies in the fighter design.

 

Rebel fighters have cockpits with life support and all the gubbins...   Tie are not life supporting (or never used to be) meaning the pilot needed a sealed suit and air supply.

 

Back in the 70 NATO tanks had cushioned crew stations and handy stuff like kettles in them to make tea... soviet tanks were quite crude (but effective) and rather than pad the vehicle they padded the crew member with a big cushioned cloth helmet

 

Ah I see. I still hope to one day see imperial B-wings (but that's just cuz I'm a B-wing nut) Speaking of, what type of gun would a B-wing be? MK-19?

 

I'm a bit of a M3 halftrack fan. Well M3 and of it's variants. That thing could do anything: APC, mortar suport , anti tank, AA, artillery,...

[RogueCorona 1,043]

Interesting analysis but with the canon shakeuup there are a few flaws. We have no idea how many fleets the rebelllion had before concentrating for Endor yet the author assumes there was only one like in Legends where the rebels had a single fleet they sent task forces out from.

[Biophysical 15,761]

The TIE Fighter is really a brilliant design considering the needs of the Empire. Like the old adage, "the first requirement to winning a gunfight is having a gun", the first rule of winning a space battle is having a starfighter. TIEs are not only cheap to build, they're cheap to operate and maintain, which allows their pilots to get way more cockpit hours than an equivalent Rebel pilot. The only way the Rebels countered this advantage is because they had many Imperial defectors in their ranks, so they knew of the tactical and technical weaknesses of the TIEs. Witness the results of the trained experts of Black Squadron vs superior numbers of supposedly "superior" rebel fighters.

[treybert 893]

I liked the last part where he related SW to the civil war with the Rebellion being the confederates. All in all, it was a good read.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

That's the empire for you: they are to fond of putting all their eggs in one basket.

 

Unlike the confederacy the rebllion didn't have capable officers acidentaly shot by their own sentries.

[RogueCorona 1,043]

I liked the last part where he related SW to the civil war with the Rebellion being the confederates. All in all, it was a good read.

 

 

That's the empire for you: they are to fond of putting all their eggs in one basket.

 

Unlike the confederacy the rebllion didn't have capable officers acidentaly shot by their own sentries.

 

 

Really comparing the Alliance to the Confederacy is a big mistake IMO because their goals are completely different. The Alliance wants to re-establish the government that existed before the Empire while the Confederacy just wanted to be allowed to exist independently from the Union.

 

 

The CIS and the Confederacy would be much closer but still not quite right because while the CIS's stated goal is basically the same as the Confederacy its true goals was conquest of the Republic until Palpy pulled the plug.

[R5D8 420]

That report is the first I've heard of how completely out of control the F-35 program is.

[Biophysical 15,761]

That report is the first I've heard of how completely out of control the F-35 program is.

It's an absurdly colossal mess. I won't depress you with details, but they are available, and hugely depressing if your tax dollars have gone into it.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

 

That report is the first I've heard of how completely out of control the F-35 program is.

It's an absurdly colossal mess. I won't depress you with details, but they are available, and hugely depressing if your tax dollars have gone into it.

 

 

Yeah, no kidding: My country has a national debt, they try to save money on everything, we got a few Thousand refugees to take care of now- and the airforce want's to buy F-35s! Gaaaaah! And Belgium has perfectly fine F-16s! Those perfect for bombing assh*les with no airforce. The only countries that have better planes (Murica, Russia, etc...) are countries that would steamroller us anyway.

[Biophysical 15,761]

That report is the first I've heard of how completely out of control the F-35 program is.

It's an absurdly colossal mess. I won't depress you with details, but they are available, and hugely depressing if your tax dollars have gone into it.

 

Yeah, no kidding: My country has a national debt, they try to save money on everything, we got a few Thousand refugees to take care of now- and the airforce want's to buy F-35s! Gaaaaah! And Belgium has perfectly fine F-16s! Those perfect for bombing assh*les with no airforce. The only countries that have better planes (Murica, Russia, etc...) are countries that would steamroller us anyway.

Lockheed-Martin and the USAF have been on a campaign for a decade to sell the F35 to every single ally they can. It increases LM market share and reduces the individual cost of the fighter for the USAF. Canada backed out recently, though, looking at F18 variants inatead. Good for them.

[Black Knight Leader 424]

 

 

 

Something just occured to me: The empire (and the rebellion) has no artillery units!

 

Or they could have sent some Tie- bombers down for some low altitude bombing, but since the battle of Hoth happens before  ep VII I'm gonna asume TIEs weren't designed for action in a planet's atmosphere.

 

 

They both got Artillery XD  One of my most favorite Imperial vehicles, the AT-AA aka Lizard / Turtle Walker is a anti-starfighter / repulser craft walker but its been seen using its missiles to bombard buildings.  Its also the main reason why the Rebels didn't just send fighters at the Imp bunker, because the Empire had these walkers stationed on endor.  The Empire was still also using those Super Heavy Turbo Laser Walkers from Ep 2.  Their cannons could be swapped out to fire physical projectiles.  The Empire mainly used a quote unquote medium sized version that was built during the dark times.

 

As for the Rebels they also had an artillery vehicle, I forget its actual name but its is a very scary super heavy vehicle that has 6-12 LINKED heavy proton torpedo tubes that it will arch fire at targets from a distance.  It uses jdam style guidance for its proton torpedos.

 

See what happens when you 'study' the GCW as if it were a real campaign/war.

 

 

I thought this was brilliant

 

http://angrystaffofficer.com/2015/11/17/center-for-galactic-lessons-learned/

 

My problem with the article was that they didn't actually look into the lore and see they all the different weapons, vehicles, gear, and tactics the Rebs, and IMPS use.  They Rebs did indeed have large scale stand up fights against Imperials while using their heaviest ground vehicles, which might have been more massive and harder hitting than most IMP ground vehicles.

 

The imperials dont use xwings/incom design team defected to the rebellion taking all the research and scehamtics with them.    

 

Back in the 70 NATO tanks had cushioned crew stations and handy stuff like kettles in them to make tea... soviet tanks were quite crude (but effective) and rather than pad the vehicle they padded the crew member with a big cushioned cloth helmet

 

The Imperial actually do use X-Wings and Y-Wings.  They have squadrons that use these fighters in areas that they can ambush other REB forces.  They probably also use them in war games so the majority of IMPs can practice fighting against dissimilar craft.

[Black Knight Leader 424]

 

 

Really comparing the Alliance to the Confederacy is a big mistake IMO because their goals are completely different. The Alliance wants to re-establish the government that existed before the Empire while the Confederacy just wanted to be allowed to exist independently from the Union.

 

 

 

 

 

For a time... Problem is they had planes to create a tropical empire that had control of all of the middle and southern Americas.  They probably would had had another war, or at the very least would have tried to change the north to be more like its self, taking slaves again, and then adopting a speciest genetics breading program similar to the NAZI party.

[GrimmyV 7,421]

The article specifically used only the OT because that is the most well known bit of SW. But if you want canon and some quasi canon into the Empire would have had access to all CW weapon systems including the CIS droid army and ships. There was plenty of artillery to choose from including the SPHA and the above mentioned SPMA, although the only canon example we have is the Turbolaser variant that only had line of sight targetting. The CW cell animation had projectile variants that probably had over the horizon capability. These walkers may have been too large and difficult to maintain compared to later walkers. Their designations also imply they were not 'all terrain' capable like the AT-TE and later models and thus unsuited for the conditions on Hoth.

TIE Bombers and other craft, while perfectly capable of flying in vacuum, might have trouble flying in freezing, turbulent atmospheric conditions like on Hoth. Dealing with ice build up and other such difficulties might have rendered any standard Imperial air support useless without modifications similar to what the Rebels did for their T-47s. The speed with which the Death Squadron attacked the Hoth system precluded any lengthy reconfigurations of equipment. It is highly unlikely that even a ship the size of the Executor (from which General Veers launched his assault) would included vehicles in enough numbers adapted to every possible enviornment. With enough lead time and planning I'm sure the Imperial War Machine can effectively bring overwhelming force to any theater, but must make do with the most robust designs when pressed for time in the more hostile climates.

And the Empire almost certainly flew Y-wings in the early years until the TIE series was developed to presumedly assure commonality of control schemes and ease of maintanence and modification of variants, which was I assume welcomed after the years of using various models of starfighters that shared little in design lineage. The GUNBOAT may have been the first nonTIE starfighter developed by the empire since the adoption of the TIE series. It remains unclear whether the T-65 will be seen as an imperial design in Rebels.

Edited January 23, 2016 by GrimmyV

[RogueCorona 1,043]

 

 

 

 

Really comparing the Alliance to the Confederacy is a big mistake IMO because their goals are completely different. The Alliance wants to re-establish the government that existed before the Empire while the Confederacy just wanted to be allowed to exist independently from the Union.

 

 

 

 

 

For a time... Problem is they had planes to create a tropical empire that had control of all of the middle and southern Americas.  They probably would had had another war, or at the very least would have tried to change the north to be more like its self, taking slaves again, and then adopting a speciest genetics breading program similar to the NAZI party.

 

 

 

Are there any actual records proving this because it sounds like a very insane conspiracy theory, or something by the writers of the last Zoro movie, and the jump between fighting a war for independence and planning one of conquest is huge.

 

Not to mention the fact it would have probably taken decades to build an infrastructure capable of supporting such a campaign. And they would probably still be trying to get enough of a population to have enough soldiers to hold that territory and defend their homelands without crippling their economy and production of needed supplies, equipment, and resources today.

Edited January 24, 2016 by RogueCorona

[Biophysical 15,761]

 

 

 

 

 

Really comparing the Alliance to the Confederacy is a big mistake IMO because their goals are completely different. The Alliance wants to re-establish the government that existed before the Empire while the Confederacy just wanted to be allowed to exist independently from the Union.

 

 

 

 

 

For a time... Problem is they had planes to create a tropical empire that had control of all of the middle and southern Americas.  They probably would had had another war, or at the very least would have tried to change the north to be more like its self, taking slaves again, and then adopting a speciest genetics breading program similar to the NAZI party.

 

 

 

Are there any actual records proving this because it sounds like a very insane conspiracy theory, or something by the writers of the last Zoro movie, and the jump between fighting a war for independence and planning one of conquest is huge.

 

Not to mention the fact it would have probably taken decades to build an infrastructure capable of supporting such a campaign. And they would probably still be trying to get enough of a population to have enough soldiers to hold that territory and defend their homelands without crippling their economy and production of needed supplies, equipment, and resources today.

 

 

I've never heard of the Confederate tropical empire idea before, but all the very good reasons you list about why it was a bad idea could also have been applied to a war for independence in the first place.  The southern states had bad transportation infrastructure, practically non-existent production infrastructure, had to blockade run much of their needed equipment from Europe (having very little navy of their own).  

 

As Sherman said it pre-war (because he's fun to quote):

 

"You people of the South don't know what you are doing.  This country will be drenched in blood and God only knows how it will end.  It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization!  You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about.  War is a terrible thing!  You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people, but an earnest people, and they will fight, too.  They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it... Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them?  The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make.  You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth - right at your doors.  You are bound to fail.  Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war.  In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with.  At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause begins to wane.  If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail."

Edited January 24, 2016 by Biophysical

[Gadge 4,294]

The can't argue the man had a point and a bit of foresight there.

 

I'd have said the near lack of shipping and a industrial production base would have made effective colonisation impossible.

 

I'd argue though that in relatively 'recent' history the South had seen an 'underdog' take on the most powerful empire in the world and win (as in the revolutionary war) and so you can forgive them for thinking 'strength of will' and resolve would overcome being numerically inferior and lacking the resources?

 

edit: i put 'possible' , i actually meant 'impossible' as a lack of shipping and industrial base could in no way be construed as useful national assets (or non assets ) when setting up colonies

Edited January 25, 2016 by Gadge

[Biophysical 15,761]

I imagine that's what they were thinking, but as Sherman notes, the North was right next door.

[RogueCorona 1,043]

The can't argue the man had a point and a bit of foresight there.

 

I'd have said the near lack of shipping and a industrial production base would have made effective colonisation possible.

 

I'd argue though that in relatively 'recent' history the South had seen an 'underdog' take on the most powerful empire in the world and win (as in the revolutionary war) and so you can forgive them for thinking 'strength of will' and resolve would overcome being numerically inferior and lacking the resources?

 

I never claimed that the odds on them winning the civil war were good but the odds on them pulling off a defensive victory are much, much higher then ever pulling off a tropical empire IMO

 

And there are enough underdog victories in history that I would never claim a southern victory in the war was impossible..

[Verlaine 1,647]

I liked the last part where he related SW to the civil war with the Rebellion being the confederates. All in all, it was a good read.

You mean the confederacy was a bunch of terrorists? Could be.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

 

I liked the last part where he related SW to the civil war with the Rebellion being the confederates. All in all, it was a good read.

You mean the confederacy was a bunch of terrorists? Could be.