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Edsel62

The Count Dooku-Yoda Conundrum

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Didn't Force and Destiny suggest giving tougher adversaries an extra initiative action somewhere? I would've thought Dooku might've had something like that.

It's mentioned at the tail end of the Build-an-Inquisitor portion of the Adversaries chapter.

 

Same rules are also mentioned as part of the EotE GM Kit and suggested for cases where a single Nemesis is facing off with a group of PCs, to help cut down on instances of the Nemesis getting dog-piled in combat.

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It's mentioned at the tail end of the Build-an-Inquisitor portion of the Adversaries chapter.

 

 

Same rules are also mentioned as part of the EotE GM Kit and suggested for cases where a single Nemesis is facing off with a group of PCs, to help cut down on instances of the Nemesis getting dog-piled in combat.

 

 

Thanks for the verification.  Outside PC vs. PC, I think Dooku works like that (they did have 3 characters with stacked XP go up against him).  Yoda vs. Dooku--because of their power levels , might just make sense to do NPC vs. NPC and therefore go full narrative like a cut-scene or something.

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I think there's a lot of good ideas here. Desslok, as always, does a great job of choreographing the fight. Personally, I'm a more by-the-book GM than Desslok, which has its good and bad points. 

 

I'd probably go with the idea that Dooku, as a Nemesis, has the option of attacking twice in a round.

 

So my version of the fight would start with Obi-wan, Anakin and Dooku confronting each other. Threats are exchanged and Anakin's player decides to get the party started with what looks like a Hawk Bat Swoop. However, Dooku has the initiative, and proceeds to blast Anakin into the far wall. Anakin is staggered and can't act, which allows Dooku to overpower Obi-wan. I'd say he takes down Obi-wan in two rounds, critting him with the Hamstrung result in the first round, and the second round scoring a Crippled result. Technically, he could have gotten two Crippled results, but let's be realistic. ;)

 

Then there's Anakin's turn, which I think goes about how Desslok thinks it would.

 

For the Yoda fight, most of it is between two really powerful NPCs. However, I would say that if a player was playing Yoda, I'd let them spend a Destiny Point to use the Move power to prevent the column from crushing Obi-wan and Anakin. However, that would be their next action. They could take a maneuver or two when their turn came up, but definitely no more than that. It fits in with Yoda not being able to stop Dooku as he escapes, and more importantly provides a nice framework to present a PC with a hard choice--sacrifice two friends to stop the bad guy, or burn a Destiny Point and let the bad guy escape?

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On the second page of force power "Move" (I think it was 2nd page) there is a darker box of text that talks about DM's allowing force users to save friends by activating "Move" out of turn... Like in situations where they would fall to their deaths.

So its kind of in the rulebook... the cosmic DM just allowed him to activate move and an out of turn action :)

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On the second page of force power "Move" (I think it was 2nd page) there is a darker box of text that talks about DM's allowing force users to save friends by activating "Move" out of turn... Like in situations where they would fall to their deaths.

So its kind of in the rulebook... the cosmic DM just allowed him to activate move and an out of turn action :)

 

Invoke an optional rule, I shall.

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Perhaps Count Dooku didn't actually use Move to attack; note that Dooku didn't hurl the big object, but rather simply broke it at the base and caused it to fall.

 

I would assume, in game language, that it was simply the GM using Dooku's action to give Yoda's player a choice: either save your friends and let Dooku get away, or chase him down and let your friends be crushed. Good roleplaying fodder, this is.

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The RAW does suggest using Discipline to resist in the case of a Force power targeting a Force user. Yoda is a master among masters, so perhaps he might be allowed to make that test on behalf of Obi-Wan and Anakin or aid them on the roll, using his high Willpower or high Discipline. Maybe by spending a Destiny Point.

 

Personally I like awayputurwpn's last suggestion.

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So I'm searching for an answer to this same question as in the OP. Was this ever accurately answered?

From what I gather in this thread using Suppress is the best way by RAW to do this that also fits with the scene from the movie. However that can lead to a problem where how you would explain that Yoda did not immediately run after Dooku after using Suppress as an out of turn incidental.

Move cannot be used as is because Dooku's attack already happened on his turn; only an out of turn incidental as allowed by RAW would allow Yoda to nullify the falling hunk of metal and nothing like that is allowed as per RAW for the Move power AFAIK.

On another note, how would you rule Dooku ripping out part of the cavern roof and throwing that down on Yoda? Move power with Str and Mag upgrades?

This is why I really like the d20 SAGA Edition of Star Wars RPG; just by using RAW you can mimic anything in the movies. Including the last two movies (such as Kylo freezing the blaster bolt)

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Posted (edited)

First it's explained by a nemisis getting an extra turn. It's also a talent in niman and a talent in seer. The allow a force move action for niman, and any force power from seer to be used as a manuever instead with limits.

You can also just describe it narratively. "For 3 advantages I throw a chunk of debris at him knocking his saber loose, and spend the others to give him a setback as he's having to defend against what I threw to avoid damage."

Edited by TheShard

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5 hours ago, TheShard said:

First it's explained by a nemisis getting an extra turn. It's also a talent in niman and a talent in seer. The allow a force move action for niman, and any force power from seer to be used as a manuever instead with limits.

Again, when Dooku uses his power to throw a hunk of metal at prone Anakin/Obiwan that action is resolved before Yoda's turn comes in the initiative order. Niman talents don't allow Move to be used as an out of turn incidental.

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It's a narrative resolution. Dooku's attempt to crush Ani and Ben fails or rolls very poorly. Descriptively, everyone decides Dooku moved a bunch of metal but Yoda countered it with his own power.

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On 1/13/2016 at 10:34 PM, Edsel62 said:

How does one resolve situations like this in a game mechanic that makes no allowance for character reacting, or interrupting, another character action?

1. The distance the object had to fall was more than could be done in a single action, and thus it was still falling when Yoda's turn in the initiative came up, giving him a chance to save the PC's from a squishy death.

2.  Somebody rolled a Triumph and used it to give the next in the queue an immediate maneuver, and Yoda (being an OP Master), had some talent or whatever that lets him use Move as a maneuver.

3. Somebody flipped a Destiny Point to give Yoda an immediate action, and he used Move.

4.  The GM wasn't being a ****, and decided to give his PC's the chance of an out, and gave them a single action (possibly by flipping a DP or maybe deciding that as the result of a Despair on Dooku's part), and Yoda saved the day.  

5. Yoda had some talent that lets him do something as an incidental (immediate action), and he used Move.

6. The GM wasn't being a ****, and decided to simply say "the bindings on the canister buckle and creak as they are ripped from their moorings on the cave wall.  They will fall in mere seconds! (translation: next enemy action in the initiative order) Giving Yoda a chance to use the PC slot right after that to use Move and save his allies.

I could probably name several other way I would solve this non-problem, but that's all I've got time for right now.  Also, I just watched the clip on youtube, and it was very slow to fall.  Dooku spent a second or 2 crushing the base of it, long enough for Obi-Wan to look over and see what was about to happen.  And as it started to topple over, it was indeed straining against the fastenings on the wall (the stuff designed for that very purpose, to slow down/prevent it from falling on people, giving them time to get out of the way.)   and THEN, Yoda grabs it.

So yeah, my ruling is the collapse of the object took long than a single action to happen, which is what Dooku wanted anyway.  Something to keep them busy for a few turns so he could move a few range bands away and get to his ship.

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One thing that people regularly forget about move object is this: Just because you move an object to a particular height doesn't mean that they instantly fall and take damage. The falling itself occurs at a an unspecified period that is largely up to the game masters disgression. So often minons might just instantly die, but a rival or greater might make other actions, either to catch themselves if flung up to the ceiling, to grapple hooks or even taking a final shot at the person who is throwing them before gravity takes over. 

Personally, Yoda and Dooku's battle happened in one of two ways. It was either two NPC's of very high experience fighting eachother, thus it was handwaved as this duel of epic preportions to eventurally set up the second battle where Ani and Obi-Wan will defeat the big bad's gatekeeper on their own terms.

The second was a force battle that neither really had an advantage in. There's rules for force battles in Unlimited Power (which is effectively a game of chicken involving strain) or just simply that their defences were so stacked that they just weren't getting anywhere, they were too evenly matched. After several exchanges of checks Yoda and Dooku agreed that this was taking too long and engaged in lightsaber combat, largely because Dooku thought he had an advantage only to get viciously cornered by the old master whom he thought was past his best days and despite his expertise Dooku was being bested fairly decisively, so he used move to wrench the object from the wall and forced Yoda to react, it would fall and crush the two at the end of the round unless he gave his action to stop it.

The game's principle is simple; the rules reflect the narrative and if the rule contrasts with the narrative then the rule will be changed.

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Posted (edited)

I think KungFuFerret's response is the key here.  The GM set this up as part of the scenario.  Dooku doesn't auto-crush the fallen Jedi (easily done just by having Dooku use Move to do damage by throwing something), instead he used Move (maybe even narratively) as a means of trying to escape.   Yoda get's to decide if he wants to end the war right then and there by pursuing Dooku or if he wants to save Anakin and Obi-wan.  It's all in the GM's encounter design (or the GM's on-the-spot encounter modification).

There are some cool Out-of-Turn Incidental (instant reaction) Talents but GMs shouldn't count on them for setting a scene unless you're certain a PC will use it and that it will pull off what you want for the scene.

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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