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kelvingreen

Character creation, skills and talents

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I may be missing the obvious here, so I hope I can get pointed in the right direction. When selecting a career, the game seems to suggest that you get all the skills, talents and gear in the grey box at the top of the page, but then some of those skills and talents are repeated in the first tier of advances.

The way I read it, if during character generation, you choose to buy one of the skills you already have in the grey box, then you get that skill at the second level (ie, at +10). Similarly, if you double up on a talent, you get the equivalent of Talented in that area.

Is that correct? One of my players has asked if the grey box is merely a suggested list, because he finds it odd that starting characters would get skill bonuses from the get-go, but it seems right to me, particularly taking into account that Rogue Trader characters are already at "level five" in terms of experience.

(Admittedly it doesn't help that the text is odd and ambiguous in places, such as listing the Missionary's Faith talent as a special ability when everyone else gets a special ability separate from their talents.)

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All of the starting skills and talents for a class are also listed under the first rank for completeness. Starting characters get what is in the grey box at the top. Note that for a +10 skill rating you need to buy the 'Skill +10' entry. Eg 'Barter' would train you in the Barter skill, but if you already had it you would need the 'Barter +10' entry to improve it.

Listing all the things you get to start with allows for easier converting for DH characters, as well as an aid to GM who may wish to swap some things about.

Note that getting the same skill twice when doing the origin path gets you skill mastery, you need to find the progressing skill choices only when buying from your career.

 

 

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Right, so you can't buy any of the skills or talents that are already in the grey box? Is this in the text anywhere, so I can point it out to the players? I've had no luck finding anything of the sort, but it's possible I overlooked it.

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MILLANDSON said:

 

Well, the rules state that you can only increase a skill by purchasing the +10 or +20 version of the skill or the "Talented" talent, so that should cover it.

 

 

Well, that and doubling up via the Origin Path. Have you got a page number for the above rule please?

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Well, that and doubling up via the Origin Path. Have you got a page number for the above rule please?

The rules generally describe what you can do, not what you can't do. So the answer is: When you buy a skill, you get exactly what you pay for - the skill, nothing less, nothing more. The doubling rule from the Origin Path is an explicit exception and any other such treatment would need another equivalent and explicitly worded exception.

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One thing to remember is at some point they will put out another book with alternate starting skills and talents.  If they can't pickup the basic talents and skills they might not be able to gain move advanced skills, and talents.

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Seriously sick of this issue popping up time and time again. The skills and talents you start with are only listed for reference and for the purposes of multi-classing from a Dh character for example. The only way to gain a skill at +10 is to TAKE it at +10 and the only way to gain Talented is to gain it somewhere in Origin path or take it as a skill later.

 

Without taking into account origin paths there is no way a skill can be at +10 at first rank- you cannot spend XP to take a skill or Talent you already have.

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alexkilcoyne said:

Without taking into account origin paths there is no way a skill can be at +10 at first rank- you cannot spend XP to take a skill or Talent you already have.

Wrong. Page 15, bottom right, inset box.

Skill mastery is gained when the same skill is received twice in path. Skill mastery is defined elsewhere as skill at +10 or +20.

A deathworlder who is ship-lorn will have survival+10.

Several classes will double up a starting skill with those from other path steps.

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Seriously sick of this issue popping up time and time again. The skills and talents you start with are only listed for reference and for the purposes of multi-classing from a Dh character for example

 

A bit harsh, no? I would understand your anger if the book stated this somewhere, but as far as I can tell it only implies as such. I would suggest that if this question does indeed come up as often as you say, then the book could be clearer on the subject, so please forgive me for asking for clarification on an ambiguity in the text.

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kelvingreen said:

I may be missing the obvious here, so I hope I can get pointed in the right direction. When selecting a career, the game seems to suggest that you get all the skills, talents and gear in the grey box at the top of the page, but then some of those skills and talents are repeated in the first tier of advances.

The way I read it, if during character generation, you choose to buy one of the skills you already have in the grey box, then you get that skill at the second level (ie, at +10). Similarly, if you double up on a talent, you get the equivalent of Talented in that area.

Is that correct? One of my players has asked if the grey box is merely a suggested list, because he finds it odd that starting characters would get skill bonuses from the get-go, but it seems right to me, particularly taking into account that Rogue Trader characters are already at "level five" in terms of experience.

(Admittedly it doesn't help that the text is odd and ambiguous in places, such as listing the Missionary's Faith talent as a special ability when everyone else gets a special ability separate from their talents.)

The skills and talents listed that are also in the grey box have already been bought by default. They are only listed for career path tweaking purposes, so no you can't buy them "again" since they have already been bought.

However if you were to recieve a talent or skill in some other part of character creation (i.e the Origin Path) then you would get skill mastery or the "Talented" talent if your career path gives you the same skill or talent once again.

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RT pg 30 under the heading "Starting Experience" in which it is said "All characters begin play with 4,500 xp. This initial amount of xp is considered to have already been spent in preparing your character's abilities and Skills to the point where they are now." Right there, the starting skills, talents, and everything else has already been purchased by the character.

Seriously, though, there are 4-5 treads all asking this question and they've all been answered. Read some threads before asking and you may get your answer without a bit of harsh feelings directed at you. Though, I must give you props for being, I believe, the only one to actually ask it in the right subforum and to actually pose the question in an intelligent sounding manner. Thank you for that.

 

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Page thirty does indeed say that, but it doesn't say that the doubled-up skills and talents in the first rank can't be bought because they've already been bought with the first 4500xp. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say that the text can be ambiguous and unclear.

For the record, I did do a quick search, but found only one mention of "upgrading" Dark Heresy characters (a reference which has been much clarified in this thread, thanks). Next time, I will be more thorough. Thanks again.

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kelvingreen said:

Thank you all for the clarifications. It makes sense when explained, which does make me wonder why it's not clear in the text, but I have my answer now, so never mind. Thanks again!

Well to be fair and if I remember correctly, Dark Heresy did a better job of explaining this post errata. I think some of these claifications were omitted in Rogue Trader, which is understandable in a way. When you have been writing stuff for Dark Heresy for so long I guess you might take certain things for granted when writing a game like Rogue Trader, and might forget that you have to write it as a stand alone game.

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Well to be fair and if I remember correctly, Dark Heresy did a better job of explaining this post errata. I think some of these claifications were omitted in Rogue Trader, which is understandable in a way. When you have been writing stuff for Dark Heresy for so long I guess you might take certain things for granted when writing a game like Rogue Trader, and might forget that you have to write it as a stand alone game.

Alternatively, you might have cramped pages as-is...

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I had the same question, because it's not made explicit somewhere that you actually start with all the stuff in the grey box. It's not even explained on the page where the Career Path sections are explained.

I still have some questions remaining though:

- In the Ranks section it mentions something about sometimes being able to choose between Ranks, or there is some form of choice at certain points. However, Ranks are automatic and universal for all Careers. so what do they mean by that?

- On the Character sheet the Skill advance boxes column headers are 10% and 20%... But I believe it's actually +10 and +20 skill points, not a percentage... Is that an error?

- If a rolled Character is Rank 1 at 5,000 xp, how can a Character choose to spend the 500 xp on Rank 1 skills/talents (that are not part of the starting set)? As I understand it a Rank is gained when the necessary amount of xp is spent, not received.

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It says Starting Skills, Talents & Gear right on the box.  That's explicit.  There's some additional stuff at the end of the chapter, and the rules errata clears up a few more loose ends.

 

If you're going to ask for a rules clarification, you really need to give us a page number.  It's not reasonable to ask someone to read the whole chapter to find what you're talking about, then read it all again to find your answer.  If you want explicit you're going to have to give explicit.

 

Starting skills are listed on the Rank 1 table.  You're picking fine points.  Consider Rank 1 to be everything from 1 XP up to 6,999 XP and it doesn't hurt as much.  You'll need to do that anyway if you plan on using any of the books past the original.  Into the Storm has new Origin Path options that can cost you XP that don't count toward Rank acquisition, which RAW means you are Rank 0 and therefore can't buy anything at all... period...ever.  Since that's absurd you just have to reconcile yourself to the idea that some errors were made.  Don't let your players rules-lawyer the drawing up of characters or they'll be doing that the whole game.

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Seriously sick of this issue popping up time and time again. The skills and talents you start with are only listed for reference and for the purposes of multi-classing from a Dh character for example

 

A bit harsh, no? I would understand your anger if the book stated this somewhere, but as far as I can tell it only implies as such. I would suggest that if this question does indeed come up as often as you say, then the book could be clearer on the subject, so please forgive me for asking for clarification on an ambiguity in the text.

 

IF you're so sick of it then why are you responding?  Why are you bothering?  Good question, isn't it?  You aren't going to stop people from asking the question so quite trying.

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Seriously sick of this issue popping up time and time again. The skills and talents you start with are only listed for reference and for the purposes of multi-classing from a Dh character for example

 

A bit harsh, no? I would understand your anger if the book stated this somewhere, but as far as I can tell it only implies as such. I would suggest that if this question does indeed come up as often as you say, then the book could be clearer on the subject, so please forgive me for asking for clarification on an ambiguity in the text.

 

IF you're so sick of it then why are you responding?  Why are you bothering?  Good question, isn't it?  You aren't going to stop people from asking the question so quite trying.

 

that's a six year thread necromancy, good sir. And if I remember well, it was a very recurent question at that time, hence the angry tone.

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Wodan you seriously need to cool off, the last three posts I've seen you make are all some personal critique or blatant attack on other posts, and now here you are bringing up a six year old post just to lecture the guy that wrote it.

 

We all got disagreements, hell look at Errant and Egyptoid for that, but that doesn't stop us from actually making genuine discussions about the game. Stop fretting about the small stuff and don't get so riled, geez.

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