Final Blast and being Defeated

[model359 0]

We hit an issue today while playing where an Elite Empiral Droid would be defeated by an attack. The Empire has Final Blast agenda card to interrupt to perform an attack. If the imperial Droid rolls an unblocked surge, can he use that surge to use recover and prevent him from being defeated?

 

We asked this question on BGG but I was hoping maybe someone from FFG would be able to give an official answer to this.

 

thanks

[ElJeffe313 228]

During an attack, figures suffer damage in step 7 of the attack sequence. Recovered damage isn't applied until after the attack resolves. As the Droid already suffered damage equal to its health, it would be removed from play (defeated) prior to recovering any damage.

Relevant RRG pages (emphasis mine):

 

- Page 5: Attacks

                "Step 7 - Calculate Damage: The total number of block results is subtracted from the total number of damage results, and then the target suffers all remaining damage."

- Page 10: Damage

                 "When a figure has suffered damage equal to or exceeding its Health, it is defeated."

- Page 10: Defeated

                 "When any other figure is defeated, it is removed from the map along with any of its condition and damage tokens."

- Page 22: Recover

                 "Some cards use Recover as a keyword. For example “Surge: Recover 1 Health” allows the figure to spend a surge during an attack to recover 1 Health after resolving the attack."

Edited January 15, 2016 by ElJeffe313

[Norgrath 382]

I'm a little doubtful of Eljeffe's explanation; I've sent a query to FFG (they don't answer questions on the forum, use this link: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/)

[DTDanix 845]

After you've been defeated, you can't become un-defeated by recovering damage.

This is why MHD's command card says "Instead of being defeated, ..."

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

This was already discussed over at boardgamegeek, and I have to say I have to disagree with your assumption. Final blast adds an addition step *before the immediate effect of "damage causes defeat". The attack resulting from the Final Blast card is totally resolved before the piece would be defeated. If the attack triggers a recover effect, then after the attack its damage no longer equals its health, and it would no longer be defeated. Its not "un defeating" the unit, because the bonus attack and resultant recover takes place before the defeat, the defeat never happens.

Note the wording of the Final Blast card. It does *not say "when one of your nonunigue figures is defeated" is says "damage equal to health". This means the card Hidden Detonators is *not comparable with Final Blast (as it defeats the unit but does not cause damage) but the card Failsafe should be (because it also references damage equal to health)

This isn't magic the gathering. The defeat doesn't go "on the stack". The defeat takes place after (hence the attack "before you are defeated") after the attack resolves. If the units damage does not equal its health, it is not defeated. Units with one health left are not defeated, because nothing in the rules say they are.

[ElJeffe313 228]

This was already discussed over at boardgamegeek, and I have to say I have to disagree with your assumption. Final blast adds an addition step *before the immediate effect of "damage causes defeat". The attack resulting from the Final Blast card is totally resolved before the piece would be defeated. If the attack triggers a recover effect, then after the attack its damage no longer equals its health, and it would no longer be defeated. Its not "un defeating" the unit, because the bonus attack and resultant recover takes place before the defeat, the defeat never happens.

 

You're correct in that "Final Blast" triggers an interrupt attack that must be completely resolved. In resolving the Attack, you would still check the total amount of damage the figure suffered in step 7. The same process applies in an interrupt-generated attack as it would a standard action-generated attack. As the figure still has damage equal to or exceeding its health, it is defeated before any recovered damage is applied.

Edited January 17, 2016 by ElJeffe313

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

Forgive me, but I dont follow your logic. Yes, we check if the damage is equal to health twice, once on the initial target, then once during the final blast attack against the second target. However, both attacks are resolved before the initial target is defeated. By the time it come to defeating the initial target, its damage no longer equals its health. It will have already recovered the damage.

Where in the rules does it say a unit who's damage does not equal its health is defeated? I'm having trouble finding that rule.

[ElJeffe313 228]

Forgive me, but I dont follow your logic. Yes, we check if the damage is equal to health twice, once on the initial target, then once during the final blast attack against the second target. However, both attacks are resolved before the initial target is defeated. By the time it come to defeating the initial target, its damage no longer equals its health. It will have already recovered the damage.

 

As recovered health is not applied until after an Attack is completely resolved and the initial figure meets the Defeated requirement after having completed its bonus (interrupt) Attack, it doesn't survive. It never has the opportunity to recover any damage.

Edited January 17, 2016 by ElJeffe313

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

Ah, I understand you now. Basically we have two "resolve after combat effects" One effect is the recover effect detailed as after combat in the rulebook. The other effect is the defeat effect you get from the final blast card.

The contention is, I say the recover happens first, because its attached to the bonus attack, you say the defeat happens first.

Am I understanding you? Am I correct in my summary?

[ElJeffe313 228]

For the most part, yes. I think we're reaching common ground here. I'm saying the recover never happens because:

 

1. The figure meets the Defeated requirement during step 7 of the (interrupt) Attack sequence. As such, it must be removed per the Defeated definition and therefore doesn't get an opportunity to recover any Damage after completing the (interrupt) Attack sequence.

 

2. The only part the "Final Blast" "...before being Defeated" clause plays is to kick off the (interrupt) Attack. Once the player opts to perform this Attack, we're in a new chain of events completely independent of the "Final Blast" card.

 

This would play out the same way in the case of a Hired Gun's "Parting Shot", provided the figure had a Recover surge effect available. I pause before quoting the release article because it is NOT a source for rulings, but consider the way "Parting Shot" is described.
 

 

When your opponent finally does defeat a Hired Gun, the figure can interrupt to perform an attack before it’s defeated, giving you one last chance to cause damage before your Hired Gun leaves the board.

 

I hope I've explained my position more clearly, and demonstrated how other abilities that have the same function here are related to this situation.

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

I interpret the Hired gun effect the same way, and use it with the agenda card "Failsafe" (again stacking simultaneous "before defeated" effects) to get an extra attack and keep the piece in the board.

[ElJeffe313 228]

I interpret the Hired gun effect the same way, and use it with the agenda card "Failsafe" (again stacking simultaneous "before defeated" effects) to get an extra attack and keep the piece in the board.

 

At the risk of coming across as pedantic, I'd like to point out that "Failsafe" and "Parting Shot" use different verbiage in how they interact with a figure's Defeated status. "Failsafe" includes the phrase "...instead of being Defeated" while "Parting Shot" includes "...before being Defeated". This means "Failsafe" completely nullifies a figure's Defeated status while "Parting Shot" does not.

 

It's a slight but significant difference.

[KalEl814 1,510]

I interpret the Hired gun effect the same way, and use it with the agenda card "Failsafe" (again stacking simultaneous "before defeated" effects) to get an extra attack and keep the piece in the board.

 

I'd interpret the text on the card as "before it is defeated" to mean that it being defeated is a given. You can't recover from being defeated, so the piece is always going to come off the board. That surge can't be spent to recover.

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

I interpret the Hired gun effect the same way, and use it with the agenda card "Failsafe" (again stacking simultaneous "before defeated" effects) to get an extra attack and keep the piece in the board.

 

I'd interpret the text on the card as "before it is defeated" to mean that it being defeated is a given. You can't recover from being defeated, so the piece is always going to come off the board. That surge can't be spent to recover.

Ah, but the phrase "before defeated" means not defeated yet, as all of these things are happening before. The defeat is not "on the stack" and after all the things that would happen before defeat change the conditions on the board, the defeat doesn't happen.

He is correct about the difference between failsafe and parting shot. Parting shot (and final blast) happen *before the unit is defeated. Failsafe says "instead" meaning the effect would take place at the time the defeat would happen, instead of removing it from the board. So all the effects that take place before, happen before Failsafe.

Remember "defeated" is not a status. We are talking about the condition of damage=health that would cause defeated to trigger. All of these things either happen before, or instead of, that trigger. You can't recover from "defeated" without an "instead" effect, but you can change things before "defeated" is triggered, by recovering damage "before defeated"

[KalEl814 1,510]

 

Ah, but the phrase "before defeated" means not defeated yet, as all of these things are happening before. The defeat is not "on the stack" and after all the things that would happen before defeat change the conditions on the board, the defeat doesn't happen.

He is correct about the difference between failsafe and parting shot. Parting shot (and final blast) happen *before the unit is defeated. Failsafe says "instead" meaning the effect would take place at the time the defeat would happen, instead of removing it from the board. So all the effects that take place before, happen before Failsafe.

Remember "defeated" is not a status. We are talking about the condition of damage=health that would cause defeated to trigger. All of these things either happen before, or instead of, that trigger. You can't recover from "defeated" without an "instead" effect, but you can change things before "defeated" is triggered, by recovering damage "before defeated"

 

 

I think the title of the card, Final Blast, and the flavor text, "The fervor of one martyr can be more powerful than an entire squad," (emphasis mine in both cases) makes it really clear that the figure that uses the card is supposed to come off the board after the attack. I'd be interested in clarification from FFG, but there's no way that card is intended to allow the figure to recover.

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

You can't argue rules with flavor text.

Here, read this.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1507918/invincible-rodians

[Norgrath 382]

Finally got a response:

 

Yes, if Final Blast is used on a figure that can recover, it can use the recover ability during that attack and not be defeated.

 

Paul Winchester

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

pwinchester@fantasyflightgames.com

[KalEl814 1,510]

Yup. Got the same email.

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

Thank you

[KalEl814 1,510]

I throw myself at the mercy of the court!