Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
cyclopeatron

Omega Leader takes full TLT damage? + 1?

Recommended Posts

If Omega Leader is hit by a TLT on a ship it has target locked, is it correct to interpret that the TLT is prevented from canceling its damage (canceling dice is formally a modification)...? Thus Omega Leader would receive the natural TLT damage along with the +1 damage?

 

Same for Ion Cannons and other similar secondary weapons?

 

(HLC crits may or may not be different because the modification happens earlier in order of operations. TLT and IC happen late.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Incorrect.

 

Canceling dice is formally part of the compare results step. Special exemption is made for Accuracy Corrector, not the other way around.

 

TLT cancels dice after a hit has been established. All possible modifications have already occurred. 

 

HLC as written, though, could go either way. I would argue that since, on the attack roll, normal order of operation is

1) defender modifies attack roll

2) attacker modifies attack roll

 

and that the HLC modification happens before the defender that its not quite the same thing as the attacker modifying the attack roll, but I'm happy to concede that it's also not what it written.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Canceling dice is formally part of the compare results step.

Well, it used to be any way. Since the part about canceling-abilities having to be resolved in the compare results step is no longer any where to be found in the current rules, it's back to a case by case ruling from FFG on any canceling ability that doesn't have a specific timing given in its text.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Adding dice results is, and always has been, modification (other than Bossk's pilot ability).

 

I don't see why Bossk's ability wouldn't be a modification. 

 

He happens in compare results, once he forces a Critical Damage through to the defender. At which point he cancels that dice, and deals 2 damage to the defender. That's far, far too late for Omega Leader to do anything about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TLT wouldn't be able to deal damage to Omega Leader if it was written like:

 

"When this attack hits, cancel all dice results and then add 1 hit result."

 

The way it is written, it isn't adding a dice result but directly dealing damage. That damage that is being added isn't a modification.

 

"Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results."

Edited by WWHSD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Adding dice results is, and always has been, modification (other than Bossk's pilot ability).

 

I don't see why Bossk's ability wouldn't be a modification. 

 

He happens in compare results, once he forces a Critical Damage through to the defender. At which point he cancels that dice, and deals 2 damage to the defender. That's far, far too late for Omega Leader to do anything about.

 

 

Why? Omega Leader's ability doesn't specify that it only works during certain steps. It just prohibits modification. Nothing states that modifications that happen outside of the modify dice steps are no longer modifications. The rules indicate when abilities that modify results should be applied, but ability cards can specify a different timing for their modification.

Edited by WWHSD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bossk's additional damage result is added outside of the "Modify Dice" step, making it right awkward to call it a modification.

I'll call it a quasi-modification until it's FAQ'd, but it certainly deserves an official ruling.

 

The interactions between Omega Leader with both Bossk and HLC will probably require a FAQ.  I've seen several people mention modifications that happen outside of the dice modification steps being out of bounds for Omega Leader solely by virtue of the timing of the modification. They may very well be correct; I just don't find anything in the rules that support that interpretation.  

 

For argument's sake, Palpatine crew isn't restricted to Imperial lists. Bossk uses Palpatine to change a blank to a crit. Do you believe that he could exchange that crit for two hits even though Palpatine stipulates that the result may not be modified again?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw this on another thread and thought it should also apply to Bossk.

 

Email from Frank on the thread on HLC vs. Omega Leader:

 

Got this today:

The effect of Heavy Laser Cannon of changing [crit] results to [hit] results is a dice modification and therefore is prevented by Omega Leader’s ability.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Omega Leader is able to stop an HLC crit=>hit modification, which happens before the modification steps. Therefore, he should be able to stop Bossk from adding results after the Compare Results step. The precedent that Frank has made is he stops modifications, even if they are outside the modification steps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The precedent that Frank has made is he stops modifications, even if they are outside the modification steps.

 

This feels like it is not within the intent of Omega Leader's ability. However, I can't argue against it - the wording is literal and backed up by Frank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The precedent that Frank has made is he stops modifications, even if they are outside the modification steps.

Well between this and the Juke vs C-3PO ruling from Frank... It seems clear that modifications are not limited to the Dice Modification step laid out in the rules in any way, but rather happen when the card says they do.

I guess to be safe, we will have to assume that dice modification happens when the card is processed rather than in the IMO more consistent window for all dice modifications to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems clear that modifications are not limited to the Dice Modification step laid out in the rules in any way, but rather happen when the card says they do.

I guess to be safe, we will have to assume that dice modification happens when the card is processed rather than in the IMO more consistent window for all dice modifications to happen.

 

I guess... specific trumps general? Dice modifications happen in the dice modification step, unless the card says otherwise...

 

Edit: ... but that doesn't stop them from counting as modifications? Does that block Bossk, too?

Edited by Rawling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It seems clear that modifications are not limited to the Dice Modification step laid out in the rules in any way, but rather happen when the card says they do.

I guess to be safe, we will have to assume that dice modification happens when the card is processed rather than in the IMO more consistent window for all dice modifications to happen.

 

I guess... specific trumps general? Dice modifications happen in the dice modification step, unless the card says otherwise...

 

Edit: ... but that doesn't stop them from counting as modifications? Does that block Bossk, too?

 

I think the bottom line is: changing or adding a result is a modification... period. It doesn't matter about 'when', it's still a modification. I would have to assume that it would negate Bossk from doing his thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that the TLT's cancellation doesn't happen during one of the Modify Dice steps isn't the reason why cancellation isn't a modification. It's just not listed as one of the kinds of modification. Rerolling, adding, and changing from one die face to another are all modifications, and cancelling isn't. TLT is unaffected by Omega Leader. Nor is Ion Cannon Turret.

 

But yeah, it looks like the "and then add two [boom] results" part of Bossk's ability probably doesn't work on Omega Leader. Unless the fact that the attack has already hit means that Omega Leader's timing window has closed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the thing that bugs me... Is Modifications should happen in the Modification step, not just willy nilly when ever.

But with X-Wing I think they decided to tighten that rule up after they had a number of cards that were written without that rule in place.

In Armada for example... As far as I know all dice modification happen in the dice modification step, there's even some rules that count on that, such as what color dice you can add and when.

But yes, clearly a modification is a modification and they are not limited to a single step of the game, but rather happen as part of processing the card.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the fact that the attack has already hit means that Omega Leader's timing window has closed.

And of course, if we ask for a clarification on that, we'll just get a yes/no ruling on Bossk rather than a general rule on after-it's-hit modifications, and then we'll be left to speculate even more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...