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MalanTai

Juke vs C3-PO

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What does C3-PO actually counts? Is it counting the number of evades results in the "defender modifies defense dice" step, or right after the rolling dice step? I'm asking this to know if, when playing Fat Han (which I don't, just good to know for store championships), you should always bet 0 when facing a juking ennemy?

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C3P0 :

Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of "evade" results. If you roll that many "evade" results (before modifying dice), add 1  "evade" result.

 

So, you add (or not) 1 evade before juke kicks in.

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Juke would be rather effective against 3PO... If you do the standard guess of zero he'll change to a focus which means you have to save your focus for defense. If you face more than one ship with Juke, because say they're running Youngster in the pack... You're really in trouble.

But there's only a 3/8th chance of rolling an evade in the first place.

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Juke would be rather effective against 3PO... If you do the standard guess of zero he'll change to a focus which means you have to save your focus for defense. If you face more than one ship with Juke, because say they're running Youngster in the pack... You're really in trouble.

But there's only a 3/8th chance of rolling an evade in the first place.

Except that Juke is not an action so Youngster would not let others use his Juke.

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Except that Juke is not an action so Youngster would not let others use his Juke.

And that's what I get for posting before I have enough coffee after trying and failing to get my car to start in -8 deg weather...

To be honest the whole thing did seem a bit too good to be true...

Edited by VanorDM

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What does C3-PO actually counts? Is it counting the number of evades results in the "defender modifies defense dice" step, or right after the rolling dice step? I'm asking this to know if, when playing Fat Han (which I don't, just good to know for store championships), you should always bet 0 when facing a juking ennemy?

It's a bit complicated, actually. C-3PO definitely counts the number of evade results immediately after rolling the dice.

However, it's not clear when Threepio's added result should happen. It would make sense for it to happen right away, of course. But adding results is also a kind of dice modification, so maybe Threepio's result comes when the defender modifies dice.

The problem is that Juke, like any other modification by the attacker to the defender's dice, occurs between rolling the green dice and the defender's opportunity to modify them. If Threepio's result is added right away, then it can be changed to an eyeball by Juke. If Threepio's added result is held up until the dice modification step, then it doesn't "exist" when Juke is triggered.

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It's a bit complicated, actually.

I'll admit I didn't consider when the result is actually added to the pool that much, and you bring up some good points as always. Juke as you point out would happen in the Attacker modifies defense dice step, which comes before the Defender modifies defense dice step.

Per the TFA Rules Reference....

MODIFYING DICE

Players can modify dice by spending focus, evade, and target lock tokens and by resolving card abilities. Dice can be modified in the following ways:

Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all purposes and can be modified and canceled.

Since adding a dice is considered a modification and the Defender modifies the defense dice after the attacker does, I'm inclined to say that Juke doesn't work on the evade result C-3PO adds to the results pool. Because that result isn't added until after the attacker triggers Juke.

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If I understand right :

1)Bet.

2)Roll green dice.

3)CHECK FOR 3PO.

4)Juke.

5)ADD ONE EVADE if the bet was good.

Right?

 

Yes. It would seem to me that it is rather clear that 3PO modifies the defender's dice by adding a die, this - by the rules - must occur after the attacker has modified the defense dice. So, if step three returns a true result step five, after juke, adds the evade result.

 

I will note this to be a sad, however true, interpretation. I rather enjoyed the thought of shutting down 3PO on a fat Falcon...

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Ok so what happens if you guess 0, but an evade comes up that Juke modifies? Does that count as a 0 and C3PO kicks in or is it a 1 and no C3PO?

The idea here is that C3PO is based off the initial roll. So if they guessed 0 and rolled 1 then you could shut it down and they get nothing. 

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Ok so what happens if you guess 0, but an evade comes up that Juke modifies? Does that count as a 0 and C3PO kicks in or is it a 1 and no C3PO?

The idea here is that C3PO is based off the initial roll. So if they guessed 0 and rolled 1 then you could shut it down and they get nothing. 

 

So then you have to guess 1 in this scenario to net any evades. You guess 1, get's turned to a focus by juke, but CPO triggers because you accurately guessed 1 adding 1 evade.

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So then you have to guess 1 in this scenario to net any evades.

No... If you guess zero and roll zero evades, you get an evade in the Defender modifies defense dice step. Which means you have one evade in the compare dice step.

If you guess one and roll one, Juke can convert the focus you rolled into a focus, at which point in the Defender modifies defense dice step, you now have one evade and one focus, which you can convert to an evade with a focus token if you have one.

So Juke vs C-3PO doesn't really change anything, guessing zero seems to still be the best bet.

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So then you have to guess 1 in this scenario to net any evades.

No... If you guess zero and roll zero evades, you get an evade in the Defender modifies defense dice step. Which means you have one evade in the compare dice step.

If you guess one and roll one, Juke can convert the focus you rolled into a focus, at which point in the Defender modifies defense dice step, you now have one evade and one focus, which you can convert to an evade with a focus token if you have one.

So Juke vs C-3PO doesn't really change anything, guessing zero seems to still be the best bet.

 

Now Crackshot on the other hand...

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This was something I asked about recently, among a few others:

 

 
Omega Leader does prevent a ship from using Juke against him. Additionally, C-3PO and evade tokens cannot be used against it since adding dice results is a dice modification.
 
As for Juke in general, it is an ability the attacker uses to modify defense dice. These dice modifies occur during step 5 (“Modify Defense Dice”). The attacker has to modify defense dice first, then the defender modifies defense dice second. So, evade tokens add evade results too late for the attacker to modify them. C-3PO on the other hand occurs immediately after the defender rolls defense dice and before the Modify Defense Dice step. Therefore the evade result added by C-3PO occurs before the defender has the opportunity to use Juke.
 
Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer

 

 
Fantasy Flight Games
 

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C-3PO on the other hand occurs immediately after the defender rolls defense dice and before the Modify Defense Dice step. Therefore the evade result added by C-3PO occurs before the defender has the opportunity to use Juke.

So... Apparently when a dice is added to the pool isn't actually based on the rules, just based on when Frank or Alex thinks it should be added.

Apparently this means the dice is added in whatever step of the process it happens in, rather than in the step laid out in the rules that dice modification is supposed to happen.

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Sorry but I can't let this one go. The good thing is, there's always the very real possibility that this will get reversed when it makes into an actual FAQ.

But I sometimes wonder if they actually understand the rule system they wrote or not, or just wing it with what they think should happen.

I mean RAW, there's no gray area here, but clearly RAI the RAW mean jack.

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Something we all missed.

 

C-3PO: "Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of {squigly} results. If you roll that many {squigly} results (before modifying dice), add 1 {squigly} result."

 

Yeah. I completely missed that too.

Edited by ZealuxMyr

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C-3PO on the other hand occurs immediately after the defender rolls defense dice and before the Modify Defense Dice step. Therefore the evade result added by C-3PO occurs before the defender has the opportunity to use Juke.

So... Apparently when a dice is added to the pool isn't actually based on the rules, just based on when Frank or Alex thinks it should be added.

Apparently this means the dice is added in whatever step of the process it happens in, rather than in the step laid out in the rules that dice modification is supposed to happen.

 

It was either let C-3PO override the general rule or leave his effect hanging out of sequence, which would have been a new thing. Neither option is super satisfying to me.

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Yeah. I completely missed that too.

I see your point and it's a good one...

 

It was either let C-3PO override the general rule or leave his effect hanging out of sequence, which would have been a new thing. Neither option is super satisfying to me.

So C-3PO never followed the rules in the first place. I guess I can accept that.

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