Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MajorJuggler

2016 Store Championship Results

Recommended Posts

I made it out to a 2nd Store Championship this last weekend.  :)

 

The Whiz Store

21 Players

Westborough, Massachusetts, United States

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1347

 

Winner: Daniel Quaroni (3-1, 3rd in Swiss)

2x Syndicate Thug + Twin Laser Turret + R4 Agromech

4x Binayre Pirate

 

2nd Place: Jonathan Desroches (3-1, 4th in Swiss)

Airen Cracken + Adv. Homing Missiles + Deadeye

Miranda Doni + Twin Laser Turret + Tactician

Poe Dameron + R2-D2 + Predator + Weapons Guidance 

 

Top 4: Andrew (4-0, 1st in Swiss)

Ello Asty + R2 Astromech + Integrated Astromech + Crack Shot

Red Ace + R2-D2 + Integrated Astromech + Comm Relay

Wedge Antilles + BB-8 + Integrated Astromech + Crack Shot

 

Top 4: Bob Randall (4-0, 2nd in Swiss)

2x Warden Squadron Pilot + Twin Laser Turret + Tactician

Gold Squadron Pilot + Twin Laser Turret + R3-A2 + BTL-A4 Y-Wing

Bandit Squadron Pilot

 

 

My round 1 match was... strange. We had 5 ships not execute their maneuvers through the course of the game due to a win-at-all-costs player and a strange TO ruling. Apparently "Stop-Wing" is a thing. I emailed Alex and Frank the particulars, and they said we should get some formal clarification in an upcoming FAQ / Tournament document on exactly what happens when there is an out-of-order dial reveal or simultaneous dial reveal of same PS ships.

 

My Top 4 opponent was an excellent gentleman, and did a fantastic job at converging his ships within millimeters of each other, while flying through rocks, for the initial engagement. I had gotten just a little bit eager and ended up closer then I wanted to on that first round. Then dice happened and I didn't kill any of his PS1 ships on that first turn, and he did 9 damage in return to me. :D  He flew quite well, and went on to win the Store Championship, my hat is off to him.

 

 

 

I think I'm retiring maximum Danger Zone now. Over the two Store Championships I played in, it went 8-0 in Swiss and lost a Top 4 match, so not too bad considering. I expect the list will get wrecked by Torpedo Scouts now, so it's onto the next thing. The Bandit Squadron Pilot went out in inept infamy, having taken 4 shots, half of which were at range 1 with a focus token, doing zero damage the entire game. He shall be remembered for all his other battles where he actually did something.

Apparently "Stop-Wing" is a thing.

 

... what on earth?

 

I take it this wasn't the usual Fortress shenanigans?

 

No, this was just me trying to make sense of how a win-at-all-costs player was attempting to deny me actions, and a resulting strange TO ruling that caused ships to completely skip their activation altogether. My email to Alex and Frank is quoted below.

 

Alex emailed me back and said that in the case of a simultaneously revealing multiple dials of same PS ships, the offending player actually CAN be forced to lose his actions (regardless of any verbal declaration), but the reasons for this are not formalized in the rulebook, FAQ, or tournament rules. I.e. they have an internal ruling on this, but John Q Public has no way of knowing about it, and it's technically not official until it is in the rules. This should be addressed in the future.

 

 

 

I came across a rather strange scenario this last weekend that I believe warrants an FAQ or tournament rule clarification. The fundamental issue: I do not believe that the rules state what to do when a dial is revealed out of order.

 

From the Core 2 Rulebook:

 

ACTIVATION PHASE

During the Activation phase, each ship is activated one at a time, starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill and continuing in ascending order. Each ship resolves the following steps in order: ...

 

It is technically unclear what happens when either of the following happens:

  • Multiple dials are revealed simultaneously with the same Pilot Skill
  • A higher Pilot Skill dial is revealed before a lower Pilot Skill dial
 

Here's the background and specific scenario. I was flying my PS2 ships in formation, and executing the same maneuver with all of them. I would verbally declare something like "They are all moving forward 1 and focusing", then flip all my dials and perform the movements. This could technically be construed as not per the above rules which state that each ship is activated one at a time. However for the first several rounds my opponent did not care.

 

Then, on the first round where we would have shots fired, after I executed the first maneuver he interrupted and said "You do not get any actions because it is a missed opportunity." His argument is that when you reveal a dial, you initiate activation for that ship. Therefore, since the previously activated ship did not yet perform an action, it has missed its timing window to perform the action. He quoted this section of the Tournament Rules v4.0.1:

 

Missed Opportunities

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent.

 

Note that under his interpretation of how activation is triggered, the verbal declaration of taking an action is irrelevant. Even if I verbally declare it before executing any maneuvers (i.e. I do not "forget"), the physical act of revealing the next dial allows him the right to deny all actions. I was later informed by another player that he does this every game he can at competitive events in order to gain an advantage in the first round of combat. I later asked him why he did not bring this up in the initial 3 rounds, and his response was "because it did not matter".

 

So here is the conundrum. He is correct in that ships must be activated in order, and therefore dials should be revealed one at a time. Therefore I was not playing by the strictest interpretation of the rules. The natural reaction is to assume that the offending player should be punished, and therefore be denied his actions. However this is purely an emotional response, and cannot be formed into a cohesive logical argument consistent with the rules, game-state, and timing windows (more on that below). The rules do not actually say one way or the other what happens when a dial is revealed out of order. Note that this situation is different than revealing a dial, executing a maneuver, and then revealing a new dial before performing an action on the first ship. That would indeed be a clear case of forgetting to take an action.

 

His initial argument was that the simultaneous dial reveals should be treated as separate sequential dial reveals, and each ship would still execute its maneuver on its dial, but not perform its action. This would result in the following timing of the game-state:

  • Dial for ship #1 is revealed, so ship #1 becomes the active ship.
  • Dial for ship #2 is revealed, so ship #2 becomes the active ship.
  • Dial for ship #3 is revealed, so ship #3 becomes the active ship. Ship #3 executes its maneuver and may perform its action as it is the last ship in the chain and its activation was not interrupted.
  • Ship #1 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
  • Ship #2 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
The problem is that per the Core2 Rulebook, each ship must be activated one at a time, and cannot be activated more than once. There is a timing window for each stage of activation: 1) reveal dial 2) execute maneuver 3) perform action. Therefore, if a ship has passed it's timing window to perform an action (3), then by definition it must ALSO have passed the timing window of executing its maneuver (2) and revealing its dial (1), because the steps MUST occur in order of 1, 2, 3, even if 3 is optional. The problem is that none of the ships had yet executed their maneuvers. Therefore, using his own interpretation of the rules (revealing a dial immediately activates that ship, short-circuiting any remaining activation steps on a previous ship), the offending ships would not only skip their actions, but they must also skip executing their maneuvers as well.

 

I was attempting this line of reasoning to the Tournament Organizer, to illustrate that the player's argument breaks the fundamental rule that ALL ships MUST execute a maneuver each round. The TO actually agreed with the argument that the ships would lose their opportunity to execute a maneuver, but he did not agree that all ships must execute a maneuver. The TO ruled that my remaining ships could not execute their maneuvers or take actions, so I had one ship execute a maneuver while the others stayed stationary for an entire round.

 

We had entered an alternate universe called "Stop-Wing".

 

As it happened, later in the game my opponent accidentally revealed a dial and executed a maneuver for a PS8 ship before his PS2 and PS4 ships that both still had unrevealed dials. I called the TO over, and the TO ruled that to be consistent with his previous ruling the PS2 and PS4 ships could not maneuver or take actions. "Stop-Wing" resulted again, so in total we had 5 ships during the course of the game that did not move.

I always activate that way in the first few rounds with 3-6 same-PS, but I ask first if they mind. I have never heard of anyone having a problem with it. It just makes the game faster and with swarms you kind of want to move as fast as possible. I even encourage my opponents to do it if they seem nervous about missed opportunities.

Was this a new player? 40k transfer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors. 

This is disturbing. I pity anyone who has to go to this length to feed their "competitive" personality.

 

You might as well pull down his pants while he's putting down his dials and throw a pie in his face after he loses while you're at it. I mean, its win at all costs! Why stop at tricking a player into believing you are fine with their slightly more casual play until it benefits you to no longer allow it, and go full on for mentally scarring them for life?

2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors. 

 

That's a tad underhanded and unsportsmanlike there. So you agree upon a rule in the beginning of the game and later on, after it was already agreed upon in the early rounds of the game, you pull a 180 and not allow it? At least be consistent about it.

I did not agree upon a rule at the start of the game. As he was moving his ships he did not say something like, "and they'll all focus" and just waited to put the focus tokens down until after he moved them all out of convenience or something. He just moved them and assumed he was allowed to focus with all of them.

One turn I consented to him performing a missed trigger, the next turn I did not. Nothing in the rules says that I have be consistent about allowing missed triggers to be performed, it's up to the opponent to decide.

When I do things that bend the rules out of convenience like moving different PS ships at the same time in a formation because they're not going to bump anyways, I ask my opponent for permission first. My opponent expected leniency at a Store Championship, nope haha.

Maybe you should add a "it's okay for now, but not later" to that comment. If your opponent ends the game feeling like they missed actions due to being deceived then that's bad sportsmanship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's one thing to not allow missed opportunities, but misleading someone into thinking something is ok, then 2-3 turns in tell them nope. Can't do that.

That kind of sucks the fun out of it on people, and a good way not to make friends

Why doesn't my opponent just git gud and stop missing opportunities?

Epitome of tryhard. You sound like a real ball to play with.

I cannot fathom how some of these claims aren't getting warned for unsportsmanlike conduct.

1.) First turn or two he moved his ships simultaneously and put focuses on them without saying anything. I didn't say anything either. Then when it was relevant I denied consent for that, because the rules allow me to.

2.) I am a ball to play with and there are a bunch of players I have a bunch of fun with, jokingly insulting each other and playing la cucaracha car horn sound effects from my phone whenever a good roll happens. But some random baby seal at a tournament? Clubbing time.

3.) Unsportsmanlike conduct for doing something in the game within my rights to do? K.

3.1) For the sake of argument, let's assume what I did was unsportsmanlike. Good luck ever getting this fly casual community to do anything about it, people will take 5 minutes for 1 dial and won't ever get the TO called over. So that's why -assuming for the sake of argument- an unsportsmanlike act would never get challenged and the TO brought over. In MajorJuggler's case the TO was just wrong, no clue why the FAQ wasn't looked at, Stopwing is clearly not how forgotten dials/moving out of PS order is handled.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paragoomba is technically correct.

 

If he wants to win by deception and not being a courteous opponent, that is well within his right.

 

I think it would be a shame if the "fly casual" attitude of the majority of players is replaced by the "win at all costs" attitude. There was a time at the championship of the North American Nationals when the Phantom player forgot to re-cloak whisper after her attack. His opponent allowed him to do it even though the window had passed, to his detriment. There's a lot of debate as to whether this was flying too casual but the fact that it was done speaks to the general attitude of the community.

 

All it would take to not be disingenuous would have been to say, when the opponent breaks a rule the first time, "you can't do that." That's all it would've taken to be considered a normal and courteous player who was flying casual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paragoomba is technically correct.

 

If he wants to win by deception and not being a courteous opponent, that is well within his right.

 

I think it would be a shame if the "fly casual" attitude of the majority of players is replaced by the "win at all costs" attitude. There was a time at the championship of the North American Nationals when the Phantom player forgot to re-cloak whisper after her attack. His opponent allowed him to do it even though the window had passed, to his detriment. There's a lot of debate as to whether this was flying too casual but the fact that it was done speaks to the general attitude of the community.

 

All it would take to not be disingenuous would have been to say, when the opponent breaks a rule the first time, "you can't do that." That's all it would've taken to be considered a normal and courteous player who was flying casual.

Ender wasn't obligated to tell Bonzo of his strategy to just distract him and win on a technicality by sending a small group towards the enemy gate and having them just trigger the end game ritual.

All you fly casual players are just Bonzos. You talk about how much honor you have, and then when someone plays to win you get more militant than the WAAC players. Ender flies the most casually. Losers fight with honor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's one thing to not allow missed opportunities, but misleading someone into thinking something is ok, then 2-3 turns in tell them nope. Can't do that.

That kind of sucks the fun out of it on people, and a good way not to make friends

 

Why doesn't my opponent just git gud and stop missing opportunities?

Epitome of tryhard. You sound like a real ball to play with.

I cannot fathom how some of these claims aren't getting warned for unsportsmanlike conduct.

1.) First turn or two he moved his ships simultaneously and put focuses on them without saying anything. I didn't say anything either. Then when it was relevant I denied consent for that, because the rules allow me to.

2.) I am a ball to play with and there are a bunch of players I have a bunch of fun with, jokingly insulting each other and playing la cucaracha car horn sound effects from my phone whenever a good roll happens. But some random baby seal at a tournament? Clubbing time.

3.) Unsportsmanlike conduct for doing something in the game within my rights to do? K.

3.1) For the sake of argument, let's assume what I did was unsportsmanlike. Good luck ever getting this fly casual community to do anything about it, people will take 5 minutes for 1 dial and won't ever get the TO called over. So that's why -assuming for the sake of argument- an unsportsmanlike act would never get challenged and the TO brought over. In MajorJuggler's case the TO was just wrong, no clue why the FAQ wasn't looked at, Stopwing is clearly not how forgotten dials/moving out of PS order is handled.

 

 

 

So what I'm hearing is...

 

-I take advantage of new players.

 

-I take advantage of small discrepancies which have no actual effect on the game which can be used to my advantage.

 

-I know the community wont do anything about my bully mentality because they are too scared to call me out on it, and they can't prove what I'm doing is actually illegal anyway.

 

-I allow players to fly casual until it benefits me to no longer allow them to.

 

-I do some fun things in some games! So I'm HARDLY the bad guy here.

 

 

No one may be able to say what you do is strictly against the rules, but this is exactly what turns a fun and enjoyable gaming community into a toxic one. If we devolve into this level of play, tournaments will become one of the last places I ever desire to be seen at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

gotta say, I'm a fan of sticking to the rules and all during a store champ and getting into the mindset that you give yourself to your opponent's mercy when you **** up

 

and

 

that the win at all costs, honor is basically bull mindset is actually pretty useful in the turbulent times of today's world, especially the cesspool that is the office enviroment

 

but

 

this is a game. we play this to get away from all that. We can afford to be a bit more relaxed about it :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that the win at all costs, honor is basically bull mindset is actually pretty useful in the turbulent times of today's world, especially the cesspool that is the office enviroment

 

And, to be fair, as long as people think it's de facto in the office, it'll stay that way. I don't like spending my days trying to screw others while I'm trying not to get screwed, so I'm going for "be the change you want to see" and choose to live with the "Fly Casual" motto. Life's too short to spend it all worrying about pissing contests.

 

ParaGoomba and his ilk are the sociopath-like mentality that is promoted as "win all," but if you look at the literature, there's a huge swing in attitude coming that'll really sideline the Type As. The really good ones will adapt before it bites them in the ass ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paragoomba is technically correct.

 

If he wants to win by deception and not being a courteous opponent, that is well within his right.

 

I think it would be a shame if the "fly casual" attitude of the majority of players is replaced by the "win at all costs" attitude. There was a time at the championship of the North American Nationals when the Phantom player forgot to re-cloak whisper after her attack. His opponent allowed him to do it even though the window had passed, to his detriment. There's a lot of debate as to whether this was flying too casual but the fact that it was done speaks to the general attitude of the community.

 

All it would take to not be disingenuous would have been to say, when the opponent breaks a rule the first time, "you can't do that." That's all it would've taken to be considered a normal and courteous player who was flying casual.

Ender wasn't obligated to tell Bonzo of his strategy to just distract him and win on a technicality by sending a small group towards the enemy gate and having them just trigger the end game ritual.

All you fly casual players are just Bonzos. You talk about how much honor you have, and then when someone plays to win you get more militant than the WAAC players. Ender flies the most casually. Losers fight with honor.

Oh I get it now. You think you're like one of the most brilliant generals in science fiction literature and the rest of the community are the poor schmucks who you get to ruthlessly overwhelm with sheer audacity and genius. Just try to remember that Ender HATED himself for the things he did, had to get beat within an inch of his life before he could forgive himself, and struggled with some serious suicidal ideation. And that was just to make him a likable, relatable character to the reader. Ender WANTED to be friends with his peers but couldn't. If you aren't worried about that, you may be closer to Achilles,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The odds are 1:3720.

 

too bad you can't stuff Han into one of those things :P

 

 

I'd bet we'll see one list take a SC and then we'll get a deluge of sky is falling threads

 

because their dial is bizarre and you won't know how to fly v them until a few games in

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that the win at all costs, honor is basically bull mindset is actually pretty useful in the turbulent times of today's world, especially the cesspool that is the office enviroment

 

And, to be fair, as long as people think it's de facto in the office, it'll stay that way. I don't like spending my days trying to screw others while I'm trying not to get screwed, so I'm going for "be the change you want to see" and choose to live with the "Fly Casual" motto. Life's too short to spend it all worrying about pissing contests.

 

ParaGoomba and his ilk are the sociopath-like mentality that is promoted as "win all," but if you look at the literature, there's a huge swing in attitude coming that'll really sideline the Type As. The really good ones will adapt before it bites them in the ass ;)

I'm not a type A. My militant casual opponents are the type A's, I'm the one flying casual as they get angry.

I may be a type A on the forums, but that's just the anonymity of the internet allowing me to be a tough guy. I do conceptually sort of idolize preying on slow easy to kill reconnaissance planes with wild eyes in order to put more silver trophies on my shelf, but just in the context of this game.

When I'm denied a missed opportunity I don't get angry, as it's my fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...