Force Adept and Rerolls

[neosmagus 600]

I've been going over the rules again, and this time I noticed that under Attacks, Rerolls, there's a statement that each die can only be rerolled once.

 

Diala has Force Adept which allows rerolls on attacks and attribute tests for the cost of a strain.   In my campaign, the players have used her ability to reroll the same die multiple times.  I think usually the attribute tests...

 

So can she only use the ability once per attack die?  Or does this override the rule of once only, because the card does not get exhausted?

What about for attribute tests, is there a limit to rerolls?

[Norgrath 382]

As the Re-roll section in the RRG just points to the attack section I think it's safe to say that the re-roll once applies to attribute tests as well. If force adept let you re-roll a dice that had been re-rolled it would say something like "even if it has already been re-rolled."

[Fizz 984]

Agreed. Though we may want to get official clarification on this for clarity.

[neosmagus 600]

I have sent an official query as well - the rules seem clear on attack roles, but not so much on attribute checks.

[MikeNYHC 217]

Multiple rerolls aren't possible through Force Adept any way I thought because Abilities can only be used once per timing instance.

[neosmagus 600]

You're right!  Force Adept says "Use while you or a friendly figure is performing an attack or attribute test"

 

So it can be used multiple times a round, as long as Diala can take strain.  But according the the rules on abilities, the use keyword says the limit is once per timing instance.

 

Thank you!

[Hatting 118]

Force adept makes sure that Diala never has any strain, making it a good combo with Battle Mediatation 

[neosmagus 600]

Confirmed by official response:

There actually is a limit on how often Diala can use “Force Adept.” All abilities can be used only once per timing window. So, because the card doesn’t exhaust she could alter multiple tests during a round, but could not alter the same test multiple times.

Thanks!

Paul Winchester

[starrius 122]

Hi there I have a question about force adept. Our group just started using this power.

But due to the fact all the dice are rolled together they have been using this against the defence dice. Is this right and where can I find it to show it's wrong?

[a1bert 3,991]

What do you mean by against the defense die?

 

Read the text of Force Adept. It does only mention performing an attack or an attribute test. The defender rolls the defense die, so they can't use Force Adept to reroll a defense die some other figure rolled.  They also can't reroll their own defense die, because they are not attacking.

 

Ah, I see the argument now. Force Adept doesn't say to roll an attack die. I have never thought of that. I wonder if it is intentional.

Edited February 29, 2016 by a1bert

[MikeNYHC 217]

Hi there I have a question about force adept. Our group just started using this power.

But due to the fact all the dice are rolled together they have been using this against the defence dice. Is this right and where can I find it to show it's wrong?

 

Force Adept says "that figure may reroll 1 die."

 

Compare this to the HK Assassin Droid which says "While attacking, you may force the defender to reroll 1 defense die."

 

Based on this wording, it seems extremely clear to me that Force Adept is only meant to be used on the dice rolled by the attacking figure. If you read the steps of an attack in the RRG it says the attacker (attacking figure) rolls its dice and the defender rolls their own dice. When it says that figure may reroll 1 die it is specifically referring to the die rolled by that figure. It cannot reroll a die that it didn't initially roll.

 

If your group requires further clarification, send a rules question to FFG but it seems to me that the logic and intent are both there.

[taleden 55]

I disagree -- I think the wording on Force Adept is intentional and clear. Other abilities such as Targeting Computer specifically say "reroll 1 attack die" or "reroll 1 defense die", but Force Adept specifically says "reroll 1 die". To me, that means the attacker may reroll a defense die, since the ability is not restricted to attack dice.

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

I'll throw in my two cents.

In order for the attacker to *REroll something, he had to *roll it to begin with. That cuts out defense dice.

[taleden 55]

In that case, why are Targeting Computer and Strike Force worded differently? "While attacking, you may reroll 1 attack die." If attackers can only ever reroll attack dice, then "attack" is redundant. And if they're going to put in redundant words just for clarity, why didn't they do it for Force Adept?

[Fizz 984]

My two cents:

 

"Steps of an Attack", RRG, Page 5:

 

2. Roll Dice: The attacker rolls his attack dice at the same time as the defender rolls defense dice.

 

"Force Adept":

 

1(S) Use while you or a friendly figure is performing an attack or attribute test. That figure may re-roll 1 die.

 

Force Adept cannot re-roll defenders defense dice. Wording is on that card so that can affect attribute tests or attacks. If Force Adept said "attack" dice, then you would call into question the ability to use it during attribute tests. The words "that figure" and "you" denote ownership, attackers don't roll defense dice. Force adept is also a core set card for campaign only. Some of the newer cards have better, more specific wording, especially the ones with a heavier skirmish leaning.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Fizz

[taleden 55]

I can certainly see arguments either way, so I submitted it to FFG for clarification. I'll post the result when I hear back.

[MikeNYHC 217]

While we wait for a response...

Have any of you used Luke in a skirmish tournament and attempted to argue that his Inspiring ability allows a figure to reroll a die that the person defending against them just rolled?

I think you'd get incredulous reactions and that this semi-unclear wording is an issue of a game early in it's development cycle.

If Luke wasn't powerful enough already he would be pretty bonkers if he could pick-up someone else's die and reroll it. (Which from what I know isn't permitted in any FFG miniatures game. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[taleden 55]

Well it's still only rerolling 1 die. Against a black defense it's probably not any more potent on average than rerolling an attack die; rerolling a white dodge is amazing of course, but on that card you can't even make the argument of brevity. There's plenty of space for it to have said "reroll 1 attack die" just like Targeting Computer, Reinforced Helmet, etc all specify their restrictions. Luke and Diala both just say "reroll 1 die", which could even be taken to be thematic since they're both presumably using the Force for that effect, while more mundane reroll effects are restricted to certain die types.

[a1bert 3,991]

There's plenty of space for it to have said "reroll 1 attack die"

This was already addressed above by someone. Force adept can be used for attribute tests as well, so it won't be quite that short. Is there enough space to have said "reroll 1 of your attack die or 1 of your attribute test die depending on which one you're performing".

[taleden 55]

It would have been fine to just say "attack die" even for attribute tests. The rules offer a pretty clear definition:

Red, blue, yellow and green dice are referred to as ATTACK DICE. Black and white dice are referred to as DEFENSE DICE.

(RRG, p6)

 

Anyway, I'll grant that there is a possible brevity argument for the wording on Diala's card, but in the post you quoted I was referring to Luke. On his card there is absolutely plenty of space to add the word "attack" if the ability was meant to be limited to attack dice.

 

There's also this tidbit:

3. Rerolls: If players have any effects that reroll dice, they are resolved now.

- Each die may be rerolled only once per attack regardless of who is rerolling the die.

(RRG, p5)

 

If the argument is that only the original roller is ever allowed to reroll a die (although they may be forced to, as is the wording on HK and Reinforced Helmet), then "regardless of who is rerolling" has absolutely no meaning. The only way that rule even makes sense is if it is possible for an attacker to reroll a defense die and vice versa.

Edited March 1, 2016 by taleden

[MikeNYHC 217]

It would have been fine to just say "attack die" even for attribute tests. The rules offer a pretty clear definition:

Red, blue, yellow and green dice are referred to as ATTACK DICE. Black and white dice are referred to as DEFENSE DICE.

(RRG, p6)

 

Anyway, I'll grant that there is a possible brevity argument for the wording on Diala's card, but in the post you quoted I was referring to Luke. On his card there is absolutely plenty of space to add the word "attack" if the ability was meant to be limited to attack dice.

 

There's also this tidbit:

3. Rerolls: If players have any effects that reroll dice, they are resolved now.

- Each die may be rerolled only once per attack regardless of who is rerolling the die.

(RRG, p5)

 

If the argument is that only the original roller is ever allowed to reroll a die (although they may be forced to, as is the wording on HK and Reinforced Helmet), then "regardless of who is rerolling" has absolutely no meaning. The only way that rule even makes sense is if it is possible for an attacker to reroll a defense die and vice versa.

That doesn't mean that there are any abilities that currently allow you to do this. There is often wording put in place to take care of possible future disputes or abilities.

Edited March 1, 2016 by MikeNYHC

[taleden 55]

Maybe, but since Luke and Diala's cards do not explicitly say either "attack die" or "attack or defense die", we're already in the realm of subjective interpretation of the intent of the wording. In that context, the fact that the core rules do explicitly anticipate the possibility of an attacker rerolling a defense die is -- to me -- a significant hint that maybe those abilities really are intended to allow exactly that. At the very least it proves that the designers had considered that possibility enough to call it out in the rulebook, which makes it harder to argue that they would intend "reroll 1 die" to implicitly mean only your own type of die. In my mind it's exactly like saying "an adjacent figure" vs "an adjacent friendly figure" -- if the word "friendly" is missing then that restriction does not apply.

[Sam Tomahawk 262]

In that case, why are Targeting Computer and Strike Force worded differently? "While attacking, you may reroll 1 attack die." If attackers can only ever reroll attack dice, then "attack" is redundant. And if they're going to put in redundant words just for clarity, why didn't they do it for Force Adept?

Because Force Adept is a core, first release, wording. Targeting computer came later. If my MtG taught me anything, is that wording always becomes more precise over the course of a game's lifecycle.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Sam Tomahawk

[taleden 55]

Targeting Computer also appears (worded this same way) on the elite probe droid, which is a core box unit.

[KalEl814 1,208]

If the argument is that only the original roller is ever allowed to reroll a die (although they may be forced to, as is the wording on HK and Reinforced Helmet), then "regardless of who is rerolling" has absolutely no meaning. The only way that rule even makes sense is if it is possible for an attacker to reroll a defense die and vice versa.

 

You're thinking about this the wrong way. The reroll instructions you posted follow the instructions for rolling generally.

 

 

2. Roll Dice: The attacker rolls his attack dice at the same time as the defender rolls defense dice (listed under “Defense” on the target figure’s Hero sheet or Deployment card).

3. Rerolls: If players have any effects that reroll dice, they are

resolved now.

- Each die may be rerolled only once per attack regardless of who is rerolling the die. 

 

This just means that the restriction of each die being rerolled once per attack applies both to the attacker and the defender who are rolling. So if Artoo was near Luke, and Diala had Force Adept available... Luke OR Diala could have Artoo reroll his one, yellow attack die. The reroll rule doesn't imply that Luke or Diala could force a reroll of an opponent's defense die.

 

Diala's wording is clear, I think.

 

 

Use while you or a friendly figure is performing an attack or attribute test. That figure may reroll one die.

 

"That figure" clearly indicates that it's one of the dice associated with that figure's attack or test. If we're going to get so pedantic as to assume that the omission implies that a defensive die could be rerolled, I think you'd also have to support the idea that the player controlling Diala or the figure Diala is ordering needs to go through the motions of literally making it look like the Diala figure / the other actual plastic figure is rolling the die.

Edited March 2, 2016 by KalEl814