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Grand Vizier

Ship components, weapons, retainers and orbital bombardment.

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As far I understand (as a youngster) few squads of Space Marine can be provided to a Rogue Trader to perform a specific mission for the benefit of the imperial autorithies in outer fringes (the said mission can of course last decades...). I'd rather see this as a Rogue Trader - Space Marine joint operation under Rogue Trader leadership.

I can't imagine (under normal circumstances) Space Marines (not to say a chapter) to be permanently attached to a RT. I mean there is no Chapter based in Calixis Sector, just few marines for ceremonial purposes (plus I guess few squads of deathwatch but there are out of range of a RT).

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Count Xanthis said:

 

As far I understand (as a youngster) few squads of Space Marine can be provided to a Rogue Trader to perform a specific mission for the benefit of the imperial autorithies in outer fringes (the said mission can of course last decades...). I'd rather see this as a Rogue Trader - Space Marine joint operation under Rogue Trader leadership.

I can't imagine (under normal circumstances) Space Marines (not to say a chapter) to be permanently attached to a RT. I mean there is no Chapter based in Calixis Sector, just few marines for ceremonial purposes (plus I guess few squads of deathwatch but there are out of range of a RT).

 

 

The point is more that, at this point, you'd have to go and petition a Space Marine chapter to loan you some of their Battle-Brothers. That's the kind of thing I'd require RPing for, personally, but if you insisted on it being a requisition, then I'd be inclined to count a fully-equipped Space Marine to be Near-Unique (there are only approximately a million of them in the entire Imperium... planets are more common than Space Marines), with quality depending on their skill and prowess (if you want a veteran of the First Company, that's a Best-Quality Space Marine there). A squad of standard Tactical Marines from one of the reserve companies (Common-Quality, Near Unique, Trivial Scale) is a Profit Factor check at -30. And the difficulty only increases if you want more or better warriors...

At the very least, it's the kind of thing you save up for. It's also the kind of thing I'd require upkeep for as standard - the Chapter won't necessarily tolerate you keeping their men long-term.

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I'd go as well for a lot of good RPing to get some Space Marines. I think as a GM I would make my players to emphase on why a Chapter master could be interrested in helping them, why the PCs need some marines beyond the fact spaces marines are the best warriors of the Mankind and which services the PCs can provide to the Chapter. For example I would be positively sensitive if the PCs proposed the Dark Angels (and their scions) to transport few them whenever, wherever without any question. 

If we want to go by acquisition-check I'd brand space marine as 'Unique' since the example for this availability is an archeotech power amour and what you want is an archeotech power armour with a guy in it. So we start with a -50 acquisition check.gran_risa.gif

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Eh, I could see a Rogue Trader gaining the use of a squard or 3 of Marines (makes an awesome bodyguard) with maybe a frigate to go with them, but an entire COMPANY!?? It would take something extraordinary for that to happen. But anyway, here's my contribution to new ships and components:

The Ironmonger class Mechanicus Fleet-Tender.
Speed: 5
Power Generation: 60
Detection: +15
Armour: 16 (+1 for Armour Plating)
Manoeuverability: +5 (-2 for Armour Plating)
Hull Integrity: 50
Turret Rating: 1
Void Shields: 1
Space:60
Ship Points:35
Weapons: 1 Dorsal

 

Components
Modified Jovian Pattern Class 3 Plasma Drive 0 8 3
Strelov 1 Warp Engine 10 10 0
Gellar Field 1 0 0
Single Void Shield 5 1 0
Command Bridge 3 2 +1
M-1.r Life Sustainer 4 2 0
Pressed Crew Quarters 2 3 0
Main Cargo Hold 2 4 1
Armour Plating 0 2 2
Mk-201.b Augur Array 5 0 0
Murder Servitors-Praetorian Upgrade 1 1 3
Servitor Crew 1 1 1
Mechanicus Technicians 0 0 3
Mechanicus Auto-Fabricator Deck 4 5 3
Deep Holds 1 4 2
Tractor Beam 5 3 3
Servitor Reclaimator Facility 1 1 1
Techshrine of the Machine God 2 1 1

Power: 47 (13 left over)
Space: 48 (12 left over)
Ship Points: 24 (11 left over)

Special: Reliquary of Mars.

This is the Mechanicus Ironmonger class Fleet tender, ususally found only amongst the Mechanicus fleet and Sector-level Battlefleets. This ship could be a very valuable addition to a Rogue Trader's flotilla. Gaining one for the dynasty would require a major Eandevour involving the Mechanicus.

New components:
Servitor Crew. The Servitor crew reduces morale losses but comes at the price of a reduction to all skill rolls involving the crew.
Tractor Beam: This archeotech component allows you to either tow another ship or hold it in place.
Mechanicus Technicians: Major bonuses to repair and craft rolls.
Fabricator Deck: major bonuses to extended repairs, for itself and other ships.
Techshrine: major bonuses to morale (for Mechanicum ships only) or Aid the Machine Spirit Tests.
Praetorian Upgraded Murder Servitors: May conduct hit and run actions or add bonuses to Prepare to Repel Boarders actions.

Any thoughts or comments would be greatly welcome.

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New components:
Servitor Crew. The Servitor crew reduces morale losses but comes at the price of a reduction to all skill rolls involving the crew.

Determine what "skill rolls involving the crew" are - apart from possibly Hail The Enemy, there's no roll in starship combat which doesn't involve the crew. The traditional weakness of Mechanicus fleets is boarding, so I'd suggest the following stats:

Brainscrubbed: Servitors are not creatures of emotions. Damage to Morale is lowered by 1 (to a minimum of 1). The Put Your Backs Into It! action is resolved with a Logic Test instead of Charm or Intimidate. Most morale damage comes from programming breaking down in the face of unexpected environmental conditions.
Purposebuilt: Any action that is not one of the few a servitor would reasonably be programmed to perform and be considered "unorthodox" result in a -10 difficulty adjustment to the roll. Examples of unorthodox actions would be riding Gravity Tides, ramming enemy ships or any action that could conceivably described with the words "It's a million to one chance - but it might just work!". Boarding and Hit And Run actions against ships crewed by servitors are considered Routine (+20) for the enemy commander.

 

Tractor Beam: This archeotech component allows you to either tow another ship or hold it in place.
Towing another friendly ship can be considered mostly automatic. For a ship of equivalent size, the speed of the towing ship is halved. Depending on the ships' size differences on the scale (raider/transport/frigate/cruiser and light cruiser/battle cruiser/battleship), the speed loss (bigger tower) or the remaining speed (bigger towee) are divided by 2^(difference) - a cruiser towing a frigate would only lose 1/4 of its speed while only retaining 1/8 of it while towing a battleship.
Holding an enemy ship in place works similarly to a normal shooting action that can (and should) be part of a volley. If the tractor beam hits and the enemy ship's plasma drives aren't shut down, the uncontrolled movements of both ships will likely tear both to pieces. Resolve this effect as two lance strikes targeting both ships with a BS of 50, a crit rating of 3 and a damage of 1D5 against which void shields are no protection. Any critical effects against the tractoring ship that target components will hit the tractor beam.

 

Mechanicus Technicians: Major bonuses to repair and craft rolls.
Better rename that bonus - every technician worth his salary comes from the AdMech unless the captain is into hiring Logicians and other Hereteks.

 

Fabricator Deck: major bonuses to extended repairs, for itself and other ships.
Extended Repair actions take 5 days instead of 7.

 

Techshrine: major bonuses to morale (for Mechanicum ships only) or Aid the Machine Spirit Tests.
Omnissiah's Glory: Increase Morale permanently by 3 for Mechanicum ships. Aid the Machine Spirit is an Ordinary (+10) Test.

 

Praetorian Upgraded Murder Servitors: May conduct hit and run actions or add bonuses to Prepare to Repel Boarders actions.
Deathdealers&Precise: See Murder Servitors
You Cannot Pass!: When using the Repel Boarders action, covertly note a number of components (thrusters are considered a component for this purpose) equal to the DoS of the Command check minus one. If one of these components would be affected by the actions of enemy boarders or Hit&Runners, it isn't if the command check for the action wouldn't have succeeded at an additional penalty of -40.

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Cifer said:

The Put Your Backs Into It! action is resolved with a Logic Test instead of Charm or Intimidate.

Perhaps it would be worth considering to use either Logic or Tech-Use to resolve that action for a servitor crew, since you can use two different skills for the action with a normal crew?

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Cifer said:


New components:
Servitor Crew. The Servitor crew reduces morale losses but comes at the price of a reduction to all skill rolls involving the crew.
Determine what "skill rolls involving the crew" are - apart from possibly Hail The Enemy, there's no roll in starship combat which doesn't involve the crew. The traditional weakness of Mechanicus fleets is boarding, so I'd suggest the following stats:

 

Brainscrubbed: Servitors are not creatures of emotions. Damage to Morale is lowered by 1 (to a minimum of 1). The Put Your Backs Into It! action is resolved with a Logic Test instead of Charm or Intimidate. Most morale damage comes from programming breaking down in the face of unexpected environmental conditions.
Purposebuilt: Any action that is not one of the few a servitor would reasonably be programmed to perform and be considered "unorthodox" result in a -10 difficulty adjustment to the roll. Examples of unorthodox actions would be riding Gravity Tides, ramming enemy ships or any action that could conceivably described with the words "It's a million to one chance - but it might just work!". Boarding and Hit And Run actions against ships crewed by servitors are considered Routine (+20) for the enemy commander.

Tractor Beam: This archeotech component allows you to either tow another ship or hold it in place.
Towing another friendly ship can be considered mostly automatic. For a ship of equivalent size, the speed of the towing ship is halved. Depending on the ships' size differences on the scale (raider/transport/frigate/cruiser and light cruiser/battle cruiser/battleship), the speed loss (bigger tower) or the remaining speed (bigger towee) are divided by 2^(difference) - a cruiser towing a frigate would only lose 1/4 of its speed while only retaining 1/8 of it while towing a battleship.
Holding an enemy ship in place works similarly to a normal shooting action that can (and should) be part of a volley. If the tractor beam hits and the enemy ship's plasma drives aren't shut down, the uncontrolled movements of both ships will likely tear both to pieces. Resolve this effect as two lance strikes targeting both ships with a BS of 50, a crit rating of 3 and a damage of 1D5 against which void shields are no protection. Any critical effects against the tractoring ship that target components will hit the tractor beam.

Mechanicus Technicians: Major bonuses to repair and craft rolls.
Better rename that bonus - every technician worth his salary comes from the AdMech unless the captain is into hiring Logicians and other Hereteks.

Fabricator Deck: major bonuses to extended repairs, for itself and other ships.
Extended Repair actions take 5 days instead of 7.

Techshrine: major bonuses to morale (for Mechanicum ships only) or Aid the Machine Spirit Tests.
Omnissiah's Glory: Increase Morale permanently by 3 for Mechanicum ships. Aid the Machine Spirit is an Ordinary (+10) Test.

Praetorian Upgraded Murder Servitors: May conduct hit and run actions or add bonuses to Prepare to Repel Boarders actions.
Deathdealers&Precise: See Murder Servitors
You Cannot Pass!: When using the Repel Boarders action, covertly note a number of components (thrusters are considered a component for this purpose) equal to the DoS of the Command check minus one. If one of these components would be affected by the actions of enemy boarders or Hit&Runners, it isn't if the command check for the action wouldn't have succeeded at an additional penalty of -40.

 

Well, I actually hadn't gotten around to making rules for the new components yet so those sound find to me. About the Mechanicus Technicians, well there are technicians and then there are Mechanicus technicians, which are an order of magnitude above regular ones. But to avoid confusion, they can be renamed Mechanicus Shipwrights. Fabricator Deck should have something more than lowering the repair time (and don't forget this bonus is aplied to all ships of the flotilla), maybe a bonus to craft rolls or something. The rest of it looks good. I'm thinking about doing a new ship a week for awhile and I really appreciate any comments and feedback. Thanks Cifer!

Oh, about Servitor Crew? The Mechanicus fleet has no traditions, since to my knowledge, nobodies ever made a ship specifically in Rogue Trader for them either in cannon or fandom (I know they have been done in BFG, but I was never happy with them). We could say it's manned by Mechanicus Secutor war-priests. My intent was that the Servitor Crew would be Competent level, but not very good at new situations or skills outside their speciality. In the end, I wanted something that made the Mechanicus vessels stand out from the herd as being different than other ships.

Justinian Phillipii
 

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Perhaps it would be worth considering to use either Logic or Tech-Use to resolve that action for a servitor crew, since you can use two different skills for the action with a normal crew?

I didn't want to make Tech-Use the be-all end-all skill for techpriests, since it's already used in a few other actions. And I envision Logic to be more useful when streamlining the commands for the servitors.

 

Oh, about Servitor Crew? The Mechanicus fleet has no traditions, since to my knowledge, nobodies ever made a ship specifically in Rogue Trader for them either in cannon or fandom (I know they have been done in BFG, but I was never happy with them).

Er... so the primary source for all things space-ship-y has done them, but there's no canon?

 

We could say it's manned by Mechanicus Secutor war-priests. My intent was that the Servitor Crew would be Competent level, but not very good at new situations or skills outside their speciality. In the end, I wanted something that made the Mechanicus vessels stand out from the herd as being different than other ships.

And that's what they do right now. By the way, I daresay that the You Cannot Pass! rule of the Praetorians pretty much negates the close combat weakness.

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Cifer said:


Perhaps it would be worth considering to use either Logic or Tech-Use to resolve that action for a servitor crew, since you can use two different skills for the action with a normal crew?
I didn't want to make Tech-Use the be-all end-all skill for techpriests, since it's already used in a few other actions. And I envision Logic to be more useful when streamlining the commands for the servitors.
 


I agree totally with you there.
 

Cifer said:


Oh, about Servitor Crew? The Mechanicus fleet has no traditions, since to my knowledge, nobodies ever made a ship specifically in Rogue Trader for them either in cannon or fandom (I know they have been done in BFG, but I was never happy with them).
Er... so the primary source for all things space-ship-y has done them, but there's no canon?
 


A poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that the Mechanicus ships in BFG behave exactly like Imperial Navy ships do with the exception of 1 refit and some minor benefits.
Not very different at all.
 

Cifer said:


We could say it's manned by Mechanicus Secutor war-priests. My intent was that the Servitor Crew would be Competent level, but not very good at new situations or skills outside their speciality. In the end, I wanted something that made the Mechanicus vessels stand out from the herd as being different than other ships.
And that's what they do right now. By the way, I daresay that the You Cannot Pass! rule of the Praetorians pretty much negates the close combat weakness.
 


The Praetorian component is an upgrade of the Murder servitor component (at a higher price) and is availible only to the Mechanicus, helping them to be more unique. The Praetorians could also serve as ground troops.
 

Good job with rules there.
 

You know, I came up with the ideas for these, but you came up with the rules. If you want to, go ahead and post them in the new components thread too.
 

This weekend I'm going to post two new ships, the Relief-class Navy tender (just to show how different they are from the Mechanicus ones) and the Amorphae (the name for Roman wine jugs)-class sprint trader, a high speed transport carrying VIP's and high end low volume luxury goods like gemstones, luxury wines, furs, and the like.

 

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Cifer said:

I didn't want to make Tech-Use the be-all end-all skill for techpriests, since it's already used in a few other actions. And I envision Logic to be more useful when streamlining the commands for the servitors.

Hmm.

Uhm, which skill is it that the talent "Binary Chatter" boosts again? If it's the Logic skill then I guess theres no need for changes, but if it is Tech-use, then in order to stay consistent it might simply have to be included. I mean what would be the point of buying a talent so narrow that it only helps when programming servitors if you can't even benefit from it when you have a servitorized crew?

Just think it was worth mentioning.

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Uhm, which skill is it that the talent "Binary Chatter" boosts again? If it's the Logic skill then I guess theres no need for changes, but if it is Tech-use, then in order to stay consistent it might simply have to be included.

Oh, that's the beauty of the talent. "He receives a +10 bonus to any attempt to communicate with servitors." How do you make such attempts? Er... yeah...

Neither skill mentions that it's used for reprogramming servitors. Could be Tech-Use since it's using all things tech-y, could be Logic since that's "problem-solving, puzzle-deciphering and other situations involving demonstration and inference. A logic test might infer the missing symbol in a series or solve a particularly troublesome mathematical equation. [...]" - that has at least some programming overtones to it when you consider that an algorithm is essentially just an instruction on how to solve a given problem.

 

I mean what would be the point of buying a talent so narrow that it only helps when programming servitors if you can't even benefit from it when you have a servitorized crew?

You do gain a +1 bonus to morale due to increased servitor efficiency for normal crews. Might upgrade that to +2 for a crew consisting wholly of servitors...

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Justinian said:

A poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that the Mechanicus ships in BFG behave exactly like Imperial Navy ships do with the exception of 1 refit and some minor benefits.

Not very different at all.

Would it need to be? All technology in the Imperium, especially high technology, is of the Mechanicus anyway. Whatever happens, the designs come from their STCs, the technology is overseen and consecrated by their priests, and the engines blaze only at their discretion. Technically, all ships in the Imperium would be of Mechanicus origin as a matter of course...

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Cifer said:

Oh, that's the beauty of the talent. "He receives a +10 bonus to any attempt to communicate with servitors." How do you make such attempts? Er... yeah...

Neither skill mentions that it's used for reprogramming servitors. Could be Tech-Use since it's using all things tech-y, could be Logic since that's "problem-solving, puzzle-deciphering and other situations involving demonstration and inference. A logic test might infer the missing symbol in a series or solve a particularly troublesome mathematical equation. [...]" - that has at least some programming overtones to it when you consider that an algorithm is essentially just an instruction on how to solve a given problem.

Alright then.

Also, I agree that Logic would be used for programming. Although according to the Inquisitors Handbook in the Expanded Skills section, it does imply that Logic seems to be a bit intertwined with tech-use when it is used with cogitators and such.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

Would it need to be? All technology in the Imperium, especially high technology, is of the Mechanicus anyway. Whatever happens, the designs come from their STCs, the technology is overseen and consecrated by their priests, and the engines blaze only at their discretion. Technically, all ships in the Imperium would be of Mechanicus origin as a matter of course...

The difference is that the Mechanicus reserve the very best vessels for themselves. Also their vessels look very different from the vessels used by the Imperial Navy.

Pages 193 and 228 has illustrations of mechanicus vessels. They seem to be built differently than lets say the vessels depicted on the illustrations of page 196.

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Varnias Tybalt said:

The difference is that the Mechanicus reserve the very best vessels for themselves. Also their vessels look very different from the vessels used by the Imperial Navy.

Not that different, IMO, particularly as what we think of as the standard appearance of Imperial Navy vessels is actually only the configuration most common to Segmentum Obscuras (look at the Voss-pattern armoured prows used by the vessels of Battlefleet Armageddon for another example of this kind of variation).

When dealing with starships, is the best vessel a superior hull, or is it superior components? Or something between the two? Especially given how STC designs are so commonly possessed of regional variations and occasional reinterpretations (often in light of newly-discovered information), as demonstrated by the revision of the Rhino and Land Raider designs over the millennia, it stands to reason that there are a great many different hull configurations all collectively referred to as a "Lunar-class Cruiser Hull", for example. The part that matters, really, is the components: more efficient and better-maintained plasma drives, more powerful lances, more sophisticated cogitator arrays, etc, etc. The kind of thing that almost never matters in regards to Battlefleet Gothic...

Remember, we're talking about miles-long warships... the only thing even remotely as sacred to the Mechanicus as the God-Machines of the Adeptus Titanicus (because, like a Titan, every starship contains many marvels of rare and powerful technology). They aren't going to go "ah, that frigate design is worthless; let's sell them at overinflated prices to the Imperial Navy", because we're talking about the sacred designs for powerful examples of ancient technology, not a used car.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

Not that different, IMO, particularly as what we think of as the standard appearance of Imperial Navy vessels is actually only the configuration most common to Segmentum Obscuras (look at the Voss-pattern armoured prows used by the vessels of Battlefleet Armageddon for another example of this kind of variation).

When dealing with starships, is the best vessel a superior hull, or is it superior components? Or something between the two? Especially given how STC designs are so commonly possessed of regional variations and occasional reinterpretations (often in light of newly-discovered information), as demonstrated by the revision of the Rhino and Land Raider designs over the millennia, it stands to reason that there are a great many different hull configurations all collectively referred to as a "Lunar-class Cruiser Hull", for example. The part that matters, really, is the components: more efficient and better-maintained plasma drives, more powerful lances, more sophisticated cogitator arrays, etc, etc. The kind of thing that almost never matters in regards to Battlefleet Gothic...

Remember, we're talking about miles-long warships... the only thing even remotely as sacred to the Mechanicus as the God-Machines of the Adeptus Titanicus (because, like a Titan, every starship contains many marvels of rare and powerful technology). They aren't going to go "ah, that frigate design is worthless; let's sell them at overinflated prices to the Imperial Navy", because we're talking about the sacred designs for powerful examples of ancient technology, not a used car.

Be sure to check out the the "Ships of Gothic" and "Ships of Mars" pdf files for Battlefleet Gothic they should illustrate some of the major differences between Mechanicus vessels and standard imperial navy vessels, and also confirm my statements of the inherent superior nature of Mechanicus vessels. The latter file even explains that:

it goes without saying that those responsible for all starship construction reserve for themselves among the most powerful and best-equipped warships encountered anywhere in the Imperium.

And taking the game mechanics of not only the listed "Gifts of the Omnissiah" in the "Ships of Mars" file, but also the described stats for the Mechanicus Ark (a vessel usually so old and often having been wrested from a space hulk) it goes to show that Mechanicus vessels do possess a bit more "oomph!" than their naval counterparts, and that said "oomph!" is a lot more than just "more clean and well maintained plasma engines".

For instance, the Mechanicus Ark it the only Imperial Battleship that comes equipped with the powerful Nova Cannon, aside from the Naval Apocalypse Battleship. But the Mechanicus Ark is faster than the Apocalypse, has a higher turret rating than the Apocalypse, and has weapon batteries with a staggering strength/firepower of 10 (which is one of few highmarks in the entire game), while the Apocalypse Class Battleship's strongest weapon batteries only have a strength/firepower of a mere 6 (which is nothing to be scoffed at of course, but 10 beats 6 any day of the week).

So their battleship is as fast as the fastest battleships in the entire Imperial Navy, sports a Nova Cannon and is superior to the naval counterpart class that also comes equipped with same Nova Cannon. Also all mechanicus vessels (even those built using the hulls that the Imperial navy use) have a higher turret rating, and all of them come with some sort of Gift from the Omnissiah (which can be manifested in several different ways depending on what you roll on that table, and pretty much all of the described effects represent dramatic changes to the ships preformance in the game).

So, I disagree when you say that they are basically the same as the naval vessels sporting only novelty upgrades at best. They are inherently better than the naval ships, the drawback is that the explorator fleets of the Adeptus Mechanicus are heavily outnumbered in comparison to all the vessels that make up the Imperial Navy (which is represented by a higher point cost in BFG).

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Varnias Tybalt said:

Be sure to check out the the "Ships of Gothic" and "Ships of Mars" pdf files for Battlefleet Gothic they should illustrate some of the major differences between Mechanicus vessels and standard imperial navy vessels, and also confirm my statements of the inherent superior nature of Mechanicus vessels. The latter file even explains that:

 

it goes without saying that those responsible for all starship construction reserve for themselves among the most powerful and best-equipped warships encountered anywhere in the Imperium.

 

Your willful misinterpretation of my post aside, I never actually disputed that. I'm familiar with the BFG rules for both the Imperial Navy and the Adeptus Mechanicus...

Varnias Tybalt said:

And taking the game mechanics of not only the listed "Gifts of the Omnissiah" in the "Ships of Mars" file, but also the described stats for the Mechanicus Ark (a vessel usually so old and often having been wrested from a space hulk) it goes to show that Mechanicus vessels do possess a bit more "oomph!" than their naval counterparts, and that said "oomph!" is a lot more than just "more clean and well maintained plasma engines".

 

Did you actually read my post, or did you just glance over it to refute what you thought I said?

Component quality, maintenance, greater knowledge of function and design... all of that will contribute to superior vessels. You don't need - nor do the Mechanicus-in-BFG rules suggest - brand new classes or vastly different rules to represent them. Just better-quality components and a crew with sufficiently abundant access to high ratings in Tech-Use to ensure that the ship remains working at its best.

Varnias Tybalt said:

For instance, the Mechanicus Ark it the only Imperial Battleship that comes equipped with the powerful Nova Cannon, aside from the Naval Apocalypse Battleship. But the Mechanicus Ark is faster than the Apocalypse, has a higher turret rating than the Apocalypse, and has weapon batteries with a staggering strength/firepower of 10 (which is one of few highmarks in the entire game), while the Apocalypse Class Battleship's strongest weapon batteries only have a strength/firepower of a mere 6 (which is nothing to be scoffed at of course, but 10 beats 6 any day of the week).

 

The particular ship to which you're referring is a specific vessel, the Omnissiah's Victory, rather than a particular class (it fits within the broad category of "Ark Mechanicus", which are themselves said to be "almost mythical". Hardly an example of a standard capital ship class, really.

Varnias Tybalt said:

So their battleship is as fast as the fastest battleships in the entire Imperial Navy, sports a Nova Cannon and is superior to the naval counterpart class that also comes equipped with same Nova Cannon.

 

And is an Archaeotech vessel from which other Battleship designs are believed to have originated.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Also all mechanicus vessels (even those built using the hulls that the Imperial navy use) have a higher turret rating, and all of them come with some sort of Gift from the Omnissiah (which can be manifested in several different ways depending on what you roll on that table, and pretty much all of the described effects represent dramatic changes to the ships preformance in the game).

 

All covered by my "better components" comment, which, contrary to your belief of what I posted, does not mean the addition of clown shoes on every servitor.

A quick-and-dirty rule for component quality, for the sake of argument, reduces Power and Space cost by 1 each for Good-Quality components, and by 2 for Best-quality components (poor quality components use 1 more Power and take up 1 more Space), with a minimum of 1 in all cases. Assuming a standard-configuration Lunar-class Cruiser (lacking Torpedoes, due to the presence absence of any rules for them), swapping out essential components for their finest Archaeotech equivalents and replacing all other components (save for Crew Quarters) with Best-quality examples using the rule above or simply better equivalents, and you end up with the following:

Highly-Upgraded Lunar Class Cruiser

Lunar Cruiser Hull (Speed 6, Man +15, Detection +15, Hull 70, Armour 20, Turret 2, Space 44/75, SP 60)

Essential (Space 26, Power Used 27)
Modified Jovian Class 4 Drive (54/75 power, S10)
Strelov 2 Warp Engine (10P, 10S)
Warpsbane Hull (1P)
Multiple Void Shield Array (Shields 2, 5P, 1S)
Bridge of Antiquity (P2, S1)
Ancient Life Sustainer (2P, 1S)
Pressed Crew Quarters (2P, 3S)
Auto-stabilised Logis Targeter (5P)

Supplemental (27 Power Used, 18 Space)
Mars Pattern Macrocannon Broadside x2 (4P, 6S)
Titanforge Lance Battery x2 (22P, 8S)
Armoured Prow (2S)
Munitorium (1P, 2S)
Teleportarium (1p, 1S)

Remaining resource: 31 space, 21 power.

That's from a vessel that previously had 1 less speed, 5 less Manoeuvrability, and 5 less detection, and only 7 space and 3 power remaining.

All that extra space can then be loaded out as desired with various additional components (Barracks, Augmented Retro-Thrusters, Reinforced Interior Bulkheads, Crew Reclaimation Facility, Librarium Vault, Murder-Servitors... and that's just using the rulebook, before considering any other hypothetical components - one each of those components only takes up another 10 space and 10 power as well, so there's yet more room for improvements)

I'd say that such a ship counts as significantly better than its less sophisticated Imperial Navy counterpart.

Varnias Tybalt said:

So, I disagree when you say that they are basically the same as the naval vessels sporting only novelty upgrades at best.

 

And I disagree with your interpretation of my previous post.

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One thing it seems most people are missing is the rogue traders missions. They commonly face down xenos, daemons, cults, and other baddies every day (a slight exaggeration but you get the idea). If they are constantly meeting/fighting xenos it is very likely they would get a squad or two of marines (most likely deathwatch but some other chapters also). It is also very possible the trader or his ancestor saved the marines or helped them in some way, this would mean they could get a squad or two of marines attached to them because the chapter's honor dictates it. The same could happen for daemons and cults (although I doubt they would get some grey knights). This is also very true of inquisitors, who could have a marine or two helping them.

 

Also, the statement about rogue traders not being a military force is wrong also. Rogue traders colonize worlds, trade with xenos, fight off cult attacks, and other such feats of grandeur. While it is unlikely they would have a full force of marines on call the rogue trader could be represented by options form either the IG (they could have a good sized military force) or by the inquisitor codex, with the trader taking the place of an inquisitor, leading a small army of power armored warriors into battle (with sisters rules). The only problem with the second option would be explaining the faith points, but if you put your mind to it it shouldnt be that hard.

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steck said:

One thing it seems most people are missing is the rogue traders missions. They commonly face down xenos, daemons, cults, and other baddies every day (a slight exaggeration but you get the idea). If they are constantly meeting/fighting xenos it is very likely they would get a squad or two of marines (most likely deathwatch but some other chapters also). It is also very possible the trader or his ancestor saved the marines or helped them in some way, this would mean they could get a squad or two of marines attached to them because the chapter's honor dictates it. The same could happen for daemons and cults (although I doubt they would get some grey knights). This is also very true of inquisitors, who could have a marine or two helping them.

Bear in mind that the Deathwatch aren't just random bands of adventurer-Marines. They're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos, and consequently under Inquisitorial control, just like the Grey Knights (the Adepta Sororitas are different, being the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Heretics in addition to their other duties). The only way you get assigned Deathwatch is if you're an Inquisitor.

The matter of a Rogue Trader being owed some debt by a Space Marine chapter is not something that should be assumed; it's an individual, and IMO rare factor to consider, and one that should be roleplayed. Similarly, just because someone commonly fights Xenos, daemons, cults, etc doesn't entitle them to Space Marines. The Adeptus Astartes are rare and exceptional individuals (approximately a million in the galaxy in total; planets are more common than they are), their leaders (who are the ones you'd need to negotiate with) even rarer.

Inquisitors call on the services of Marines frequently because there are long-standing organisational ties in place; the Chambers Militant first and foremost (In two out of three cases, they're Astartes forces that exist solely to fight at the behest of the Inquisition), but other chapters as well (the Red Hunters chapter is suggested to have strong ties with the Inquisition, and bear the sigil of the Inquisition amongst their chapter heraldry). Rogue Traders, being individuals, must cultivate and maintain such ties personally, while Inquisitors can benefit from the collective strength of their organisation in this regard - .

 steck said:

Also, the statement about rogue traders not being a military force is wrong also. Rogue traders colonize worlds, trade with xenos, fight off cult attacks, and other such feats of grandeur. While it is unlikely they would have a full force of marines on call the rogue trader could be represented by options form either the IG (they could have a good sized military force) or by the inquisitor codex, with the trader taking the place of an inquisitor, leading a small army of power armored warriors into battle (with sisters rules). The only problem with the second option would be explaining the faith points, but if you put your mind to it it shouldnt be that hard.

Defining 'military forces' in 40k is difficult; fundamentally, the Imperium was built in war and its infrastructure exists to maintain its war machine first and foremost. There are few organisations in the Imperium who aren't given cause or remit to administer lethal force at some point...

Rogue Traders, however, like Inquisitors, exist outside of the structure of the Imperium. They're beholden to it, but not bound by it. That they are often called upon to direct armies of men and machines and fleets of warships is a statement of their authority, not necessarily an indication of them being bound to a military organisation like the Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy.

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I just use Battle Sisters to side step the whole issue.  It's a lot easier for the party to convince some Cardinal someplace to loan them a few squads of battle sisters then it would be to acquire the might of the adeptus astartes. 

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steck said:

One thing it seems most people are missing is the rogue traders missions. They commonly face down xenos, daemons, cults, and other baddies every day (a slight exaggeration but you get the idea). If they are constantly meeting/fighting xenos it is very likely they would get a squad or two of marines (most likely deathwatch but some other chapters also). It is also very possible the trader or his ancestor saved the marines or helped them in some way, this would mean they could get a squad or two of marines attached to them because the chapter's honor dictates it. The same could happen for daemons and cults (although I doubt they would get some grey knights). This is also very true of inquisitors, who could have a marine or two helping them.

 

That's like saying the IG should have SMs every time they face xenos.  Which is simply not true they face orks, eldar and the like all the time on their own.  The only SMs confirmed to be operating in the area are Deathwatch working for the Inquisition.  FFG has stated that there are no chapters based in the Calixis sector.  Nor is there much of any mention of them in the expanse.  The FFG RT book indicates that it's very rare that a RT has SM troops, and when they do the SM aren't under the RT's command.

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BaronIveagh said:

I just use Battle Sisters to side step the whole issue.  It's a lot easier for the party to convince some Cardinal someplace to loan them a few squads of battle sisters then it would be to acquire the might of the adeptus astartes. 

Technically, you'd need to convince a Canoness or other leader of the Adepta Sororitas to obtain the services of a group of Sisters Militant; the Adepta Sororitas exist alongside the Ecclesiarchy as much to regulate it and quell unacceptable deviance as anything else (they're as much about shooting heretics within the Church as they are about shooting heretics elsewhere), and possess a distinct organisational structure that even has its supreme commander (the Abbess Sanctorum) as one of the lesser High Lords of Terra. Speaking with a Cardinal might well put you on the right path - he would invariably have political connections with the Sororitas as a natural consequence of his station - but it wouldn't be the only thing required.

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It's not that hard, the ecclesiarchy is forbidden from maintaining it's own fleet, and are entirely reliant on other organisations for inter-planetary travel.

This is why Adepta Sororitas are often found alongside the Inquisition or Imperial Guard, but an independent order might agree to lend the Rogue Trader some warriors in exchange for transporting a lot more somewhere else.

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Cifer said:

Fabricator Deck: major bonuses to extended repairs, for itself and other ships.
Extended Repair actions take 5 days instead of 7.

Fabricator Deck: consisting of advanced machine shops and stockpiles of high-quality spare parts and raw materials, a Fabricator Deck allows a ship to perform superior repairs by producing tailor-made replacement parts.  The Fabricator Deck provides a +10 bonus to Tech Use checks made to perform Extended Repairs on the ship.  Also, when Extended Repairs are successful, the ship regains an additional 2 Hull Points, up to its normal maximum.

A Fabricator Deck can sometimes be used to repair destroyed components.  With GM approval, you may attempt to repair a destroyed component by making a Difficult (-20) Tech Use check, and taking a penalty of -10 for each Ship Point of the component.  The Fabricator Deck does not provide a bonus to this check.  Archaeotech and Xenos components may not be repaired in this way.  This check takes two weeks, during which time you may continue to perform Extended Repairs as normal, but you do not receive the +2 bonus to regained Hull Points.

A damaged Fabricator Deck cannot produce replacement parts, and therefore can no longer repair destroyed components or provide the bonus to regained Hull Points, but the stockpiles of raw materials continue to provide the Tech Use bonus during Extended Repairs.

Fabricator Deck: Transports, Raiders, Frigates: Power 3, Space 2, SP 2.  Light Cruisers, Cruisers: Power 4, Space 3, SP 2.

 

Whew.  Sorry for the convoluted language, but I play with a slippery bunch of rules-lawyers.  I based the requirements on the Munitorium, but I wouldn't disagree with bumping the Space and Power up by one each.

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St. Jimmy said:

It's not that hard, the ecclesiarchy is forbidden from maintaining it's own fleet, and are entirely reliant on other organisations for inter-planetary travel.

This is why Adepta Sororitas are often found alongside the Inquisition or Imperial Guard, but an independent order might agree to lend the Rogue Trader some warriors in exchange for transporting a lot more somewhere else.

The thing is, why would you ever want a bunch of Adepta Sororitas aboard your vessel unless you're an ultra puritan even for a Rogue Trader?

As soon as you start dealing with xenos goods or some other "borderline heretical" business practices, the Sororitas will either just abandon you or even might try to kill you for your crimes.

Of course, you might want to try waving a writ of trade in their faces and claim all manner of "rights" and "priviligies" but remember, we're talking about zealots here who are used to using violence to solve debates regarding faith.

Also, Imperial Guard commanders tend to dislike having to work alongside the Adepta Sororitas for these reasons, because they never follow orders from any other hierarchy than their own, and they don't have any sense of "strategy" either due to their zealous fanaticism.

If I was a Rogue Trader, I'd take a bunch of stone cold killers for hire or other kinds of sellswords over a bunch of fanatic warrior nuns any day of the week, because the latter will eventually cause you more headache than they could possibly solve martially for you.

Just sayin'

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