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WWHSD

Inquisitor and Autothrusters

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Autothrusters is clearly worded so it is you that must be beyond Range 2 of the attack.

If it was clear, no-one would be arguing in this thread, no-one would have asked Frank for a clarification, and Frank would not have written to say that as written it means beyond range 2 of the ship.

 

Let's try another exercise.

...

Not B = Not beyond Range 2 of attack = At Range 1-2 of attack

If we're going to have an exercise in formal logic, can we start from the premises as ruled by the games designer, rather than the premises as you'd like them to be?

 

So Not trigger = inside firing arc and at Range 1-2 of attack.

This is exactly what the FAQ for Autothrusters tells you.

As another exercise in formal logic, there is a difference between "if" and "if and only if". The FAQS says Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at range 1–2.

It does not say "if and only if". This means there can be other conditions where it does not trigger, such as "you are not beyond range 2".

 

Unfortunately we now have a mail from Frank where he is disputing his own ruling in the FAQ.

We have an email from Frank which does not explicitly contradict the FAQ, but clarifies it further.

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I really don't understand what is wrong with everybody when figuring this out. For Autothrusters it reads:

"When defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to a evade result.”

If your opponent was a Y-wing with a ion turret and you were parallel, side-by-side, to him at range 1; Autothrusters would kick in, because you are outside of the Y-wing's firing arc. The same result would occur with a ship using a secondary weapon (cannon/missile/torpedo) that could fire outside of it's firing arc. If any part of you is within range 2 of the attacker's (printed) firing arc, then Autothrusters would not kick in.

Inquisitor's pilot ability only allows him to treat HIS attacks as if they are at range one. It has no effect on Autothrusters because that occurs during the opponent's attack, not HIS.

Edited by Sentinal

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Inquisitor's pilot ability only allows him to treat HIS attacks as if they are at range one. It has no effect on Autothrusters because that occurs during the opponent's attack, not HIS.

 

I'm not sure, but I think we're discussing the case when the Inquisitor attacks someone with Auothrusters...

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Inquisitor's pilot ability only allows him to treat HIS attacks as if they are at range one. It has no effect on Autothrusters because that occurs during the opponent's attack, not HIS.

 

I'm not sure, but I think we're discussing the case when the Inquisitor attacks someone with Auothrusters...

 

 

That's exactly what we were discussing. Heres's the situation:

 

- Soontir Fel and The Inquisitor are at range three from each other.

- There are no obstacles intervening.

- Soontir is defending against The Inquistor's attack.

 

Q. How many red dice does The Inquisitor get?

A. 3

 

Q. How many green dice does Soontir get (no Stealth Device on Soontir)?

A. 3

 

Q. Does Soontir get the benefit of Autothrusters?

A. Yes, according to the email from FFG.

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Inquisitor's pilot ability only allows him to treat HIS attacks as if they are at range one. It has no effect on Autothrusters because that occurs during the opponent's attack, not HIS.

 

I'm not sure, but I think we're discussing the case when the Inquisitor attacks someone with Auothrusters...

 

That's exactly what we were discussing. Heres's the situation:

 

- Soontir Fel and The Inquisitor are at range three from each other.

- There are no obstacles intervening.

- Soontir is defending against The Inquistor's attack.

 

Q. How many red dice does The Inquisitor get?

A. 3

 

Q. How many green dice does Soontir get (no Stealth Device on Soontir)?

A. 3

 

Q. Does Soontir get the benefit of Autothrusters?

A. Yes, according to the email from FFG.

Oh, ok my bad. I misinterpreted the argument, but I agree that there is no interaction between the abilities.

Inquisitor gets his ability (red dice) and Autothrusters kicks in beyond range two (green dice). How come people thought otherwise?

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Because the Inquisitor treats the range of the attack as Range 1. One argument was: "How does this apply to a ship with Autothrusters? Is it the range of the attack or range ship-to-ship?"

 

If Autothrusters was deemed to be the range of the attack, then no matter where it was it would be treated as Range 1 due to the Inquisitor. As it stands, it's ship-to-ship, so the Inquisitor doesn't factor into Autothrusters.

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If Autothrusters was deemed to be the range of the attack, then no matter where it was it would be treated as Range 1 due to the Inquisitor.

 

 

Not exactly true. Inquisitor says that 'when attacking [...] treat the range of the attack as 1'. Autothrusters say 'when defending'. AFAIK there is nothing anywhere to imply that a bonus you gain 'when attacking' would also apply 'when defending'

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Yes common logic would imply that an effect when attacking would also affect the defender when defending during the same attack. And since Autothrusters rely on the Range of the attack it is affected by the Inquisitors effect. The attack can not be both Range 1 and Range 3 (or beyond Range 2)

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And since Autothrusters rely on the Range of the attack it is affected by the Inquisitors effect. 

 

Autothrusters has nothing to do with the range of the attack. It is only concerned with the distance between the Attacker and the Defender.

 

 

Here's what the card says:

"When defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to a [EVADE] result. You can equip this card only if you have the [bOOST] action icon.

 

 

Here's how you seem to be reading it:

"When defending against an attack that is beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to a [EVADE] result. You can equip this card only if you have the [bOOST] action icon."

 

 

I'm not sure why people are still arguing about this. Frank's response is on Page 3 of this thread.

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Because Franks response se is contradicting the current FAQ. It also implies that I can attack ships in Range 3 and inside my firing arc but actually beyond Range 3 measured in arc.

I state my arguments based on the card text and FAQ, which clearly states that Autothrusters does not work if you are being attacked in arc at Range 1-2 for non turreted attacks.

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Because Franks response se is contradicting the current FAQ. It also implies that I can attack ships in Range 3 and inside my firing arc but actually beyond Range 3 measured in arc.

It implies nothing of the sort.

What it does imply is that that ship does fulfill "in arc" and "Range 3" for all ship-to-ship measurements, that's absolutely correct.

In this case you've brought up, however, it cannot be targeted by an arc-restricted attack, because the attacking rules state that the range of the attack must be measured by the distance that is inside arc. Ship-to-ship distance and in-arc attack range can be and often are different. The bold text is indisputable, it is just a fact of the game.

So, going back to your example, this range example would be satisfactory to trigger Etahn A'baht's ability for his squadmates (even though Etahn himself would not be able to attack the ship in question).

And finally, bringing it home to Autothrusters, the question became, "Does Autothrusters measure ship distance based on attack range, or ship-to-ship distance?" Because, as above, they can be and often are different.

It is not worded unambiguously on the card.

So Frank got a rules question, and Frank's reply says that it uses ship-to-ship distance.

Therefore, and I'm going back to the indisputable fact that ship-to-ship distance and attack range can be and often are different here, it (currently) does not matter what the range of the attack is for Autothrusters to trigger.

It only matters what the ship-to-ship range is.

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I just caught up on this thread, and it's... entertaining, I guess, but more confusing than it needs to be.

There are two kinds of range measurements in the game: there's the distance between two ships, and there's the range of an attack. Everybody knows that already, although they tend to forget about it because the measurements are usually the same (and because the distance between two ships isn't used very often during the combat phase).

The right way to untangle the Autothrusters/Inquisitor interaction, then, is to decide which of those measurements each upgrade is referring to.

For the Inquisitor, it's fairly clear: he operates based on the "range of the attack". Basically, when he's measuring for his attacks, he has a range ruler that's labeled "1" all along its length. But for Autothrusters, it's much more ambiguous. They're triggered "if [the defender is] beyond Range 2". It doesn't specify whether that means the distance between the ships is > 2 or the range of the attack is > 2, and without going into further detail, a reasonable reader could interpret it either way.

Frank's e-mail strongly implies that Autothrusters depends on the distance between the ships, rather than on the range of the attack. And that's perfectly permissible in the rules! It simply means that when you measure for Autothrusters, you measure point-to-point rather than measuring in-arc.

(And, although someone upthread cautioned against bringing Carnor Jax in, it turns out that you can apply exactly the same process. Jax clearly refers to the distance between two ships, since it applies even during the activation phase, and even when Carnor isn't either the attacker or the defender in an attack. So if the Inquisitor is attacking Jax, he measures for his attack and finds--surprise!--that using his special range ruler where every increment is labeled 1, the range of the attack is 1. When it comes time for the Inquisitor to spend a focus token, Carnor Jax measures the distance between his ship and the Inquisitor's ship, and finds that it's... whatever distance it is. If it's greater than 1, the Inquisitor can spend the token; otherwise, he can't.)

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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We have a published FAQ and a mail response from Frank that contradict each other. Which one should we use?

The FAQ makes it quite clear that Autothrusters use the Range of the attack. Franks mail stated the opposite. The only think I can rely on it the published FAQ, so until that changes that is the official ruling from FFG.

 

From FAQ v4

 

 Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2.

This one is pretty clear. Autothrusters does not work if you are inside arc at Range 1-2. There is no question that this is measured in arc. So for a non turreted attack, you are using the Range of the attack.

 

If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine Range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

Now for turreted attacks use the Range closest point to closest point. Which happens to be the Range of the attack, Then check in arc.

 

So the FAQ tells you to always use the Range of the attack.

 

The wording id Autothrusters also makes it quite clear that the defendes has to be Beyond Range 2. That means the Range is measured from the Attacker, not the Defender, so there is no second Range measurement, because you already determined the distance.

 

This is where the Carnor Jax example differs. Jax is worded so there is a measurement from Jax to the attacker
 

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If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine Range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

Now for turreted attacks use the Range closest point to closest point. Which happens to be the Range of the attack, Then check in arc.

 

So the FAQ tells you to always use the Range of the attack.

 

That FAQ entry doesn't conflict, it just needlessly specifies "ships with turret weapons". No where in the Autothrusters FAQ entry does it specify that you are measuring for the range of an attack.  The FAQ entry on Autothrusters is referring to the the range and arc check for Autothrusters.

 

Range is a term that is defined in the RRG that is used for any measurement of distance between ships.

 

RRG, pg. 16:

 

"RANGE

Range is the distance between two ships as
measured by the range ruler, which is divided into
three range bands."
 
 
If that FAQ entry was dealing with establishing the range of the attack, a YT-2400 with an HLC (no Outrider title) would use a closest point to closest point measurement when using its HLC, but only when attacking ships with Autothrusters equipped.
Edited by WWHSD

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That FAQ entry doesn't conflict, it just needlessly specifies "ships with turret weapons". No where in the Autothrusters FAQ entry does it specify that you are measuring for the range of an attack.  The FAQ entry on Autothrusters is referring to the the range and arc check for Autothrusters.

 

Range is a term that is defined in the RRG that is used for any measurement of distance between ships.

 

RRG, pg. 16:

 

"RANGE

Range is the distance between two ships as
measured by the range ruler, which is divided into
three range bands."
 
 
If that FAQ entry was dealing with establishing the range of the attack, a YT-2400 with an HLC (no Outrider title) would use a closest point to closest point measurement when using its HLC, but only when attacking ships with Autothrusters equipped.

 

What do you mean needlessly. It is very clear that that paragraph lays out how to handle turreted atacks, as opposed the the previous paragraph dealing with regular attacks. The paragraps makes it very clear that you only measure closest point to closest point if it is a turreted attact. And closest point to closest point for turret attacks happen to be the attack range. And since it is spelled out clearly this is only for turret attacks that also means that this is not what you do for regular attacks. Otherwise they would not need to separate the 2 attack types in the FAQ.

 

Your example makes absolutely no sense. A YT-2400 with an HLC, and no Outrider title would clearly qualify as a Regular attack using the Firing Arc, and thus never measure closest point to closest point.

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It is very clear that that paragraph lays out how to handle turreted atacks, as opposed the the previous paragraph dealing with regular attacks. 

 

The first paragraph doesn't deal with just regular attacks. It deals with all attacks. It is just restating the conditions for Autothrusters in a different manner than what is on the card. It clarifies many questions having to do with needing to meet both the range and arc requirements that pop up. The card describes when Autothrusters trigger, the FAQ describes when it doesn't. 

 

 

 The paragraps makes it very clear that you only measure closest point to closest point if it is a turreted attact. And closest point to closest point for turret attacks happen to be the attack range. And since it is spelled out clearly this is only for turret attacks that also means that this is not what you do for regular attacks. Otherwise they would not need to separate the 2 attack types in the FAQ.

 

 The second paragraph is establishing that arc and range are determined separately. At the time that the FAQ was written they only covered Turreted Ships as that was probably what most of the questions along these lines were. It doesn't state that this is only the case for Turreted Ships. It seems that you are saying that Frank's ruling contradicts something that isn't actually in the FAQ but rather it contradicts the shadow of something that is in the FAQ. The FAQ says to use closest point to closest point for ships with Turret Weapons. Frank's ruling says to do the same thing for everything else.

 

 

 

Your example makes absolutely no sense. A YT-2400 with an HLC, and no Outrider title would clearly qualify as a Regular attack using the Firing Arc, and thus never measure closest point to closest point.

 

 

Read the passage from the FAQ again. It says nothing about using the turret weapon to attack. It only deals with having a turret on the ship. A YT-2400 attacking with a canon or missile meets the requirement of being a "ship with a turret weapon". A BTL-A4 Y-wing with an Ion turret would meet that requirement as well even though it can't attack out of arc. 

 

Not once is "range of attack" or "attack range" mentioned in the Autothrusters FAQ entry. It only uses the more general term "range" which is referring to the range measurement used for the Autothrusters ability.

Edited by WWHSD

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I think we just need a ruling on the intent of the ability. Then the rules craziness is irrelevant. Until then, I think we are just screwed.

 

It doesn't matter what the intent of the ability is, FFG shouldn't be ruling on intent if the intent is contrary to the rules. The ruling we have is consistent with the rules. Rulings should do their best to be consistent with the rules. If the rules don't match the intent of the ability then we need an errata or an update to the rules.

 

If there is an errata or rules tweak that make Autothrusters use the range of the attack instead of the range between ships, then I would expect the ruling that we have on Autothrusters to change as well. 

Edited by WWHSD

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We have a published FAQ and a mail response from Frank that contradict each other. Which one should we use?

The FAQ makes it quite clear that Autothrusters use the Range of the attack. Franks mail stated the opposite. The only think I can rely on it the published FAQ, so until that changes that is the official ruling from FFG.

 

From FAQ v4

Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2.

This one is pretty clear. Autothrusters does not work if you are inside arc at Range 1-2. There is no question that this is measured in arc. So for a non turreted attack, you are using the Range of the attack.

That's not what it's saying at all. We know for certain that whether or not a ship is in your firing arc has nothing to do with the distance between ships (that is, to the range measurement from closest point to closest point). It's often, but not necessarily, related to the range of the attack.

As WWHSD says, all your quote from the FAQ does is pose the contrapositive of the trigger condition for Autothrusters: if you are inside a ship's firing arc and at Range 1-2, the upgrade doesn't work. It doesn't specify whether that range measurement is the range of the attack or the distance between the two ships.

If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine Range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

Now for turreted attacks use the Range closest point to closest point. Which happens to be the Range of the attack, Then check in arc.

 

So the FAQ tells you to always use the Range of the attack.

But it doesn't tell you to do that here, either. When you're attacking with a turret, you use the same method to determine the range of the attack and the distance between ships, but that's irrelevant: there are still technically two measurements, they're just constrained to be the same.

The wording id Autothrusters also makes it quite clear that the defendes has to be Beyond Range 2.

Sure, but it doesn't tell you whether that's the range of the attack or the distance between the ships, which means it's not helpful for determining how Inquisitor and Autothrusters interact.

That means the Range is measured from the Attacker, not the Defender, so there is no second Range measurement, because you already determined the distance.

There are two kinds of range measurements, and you're simply asserting that Autothrusters triggers off the range of the attack. As I said above, that's a perfectly reasonable reading! Frank reads it the other way, which is equally reasonable, and since he's the authority...

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if you are inside a ship's firing arc and at Range 1-2, the upgrade doesn't work

There is no 'and' in the FAQ, and that makes quite a difference.

The way you write it, the Range measurement is separate from the fire arc.

The way the FAQ writes it, the Range is the Range of the attack, just like in the quotes I posted regarding the primary attack Range bonus dice.

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if you are inside a ship's firing arc and at Range 1-2, the upgrade doesn't work

There is no 'and' in the FAQ, and that makes quite a difference.

The way you write it, the Range measurement is separate from the fire arc.

The way the FAQ writes it, the Range is the Range of the attack, just like in the quotes I posted regarding the primary attack Range bonus dice.

 

 

The Faq entry is not regarding range of attack, that's probably why you are confused.

 

The entry is only explaining how to measure range when you declare you are using Autothrusters to modify a defense roll.

Like every other defensive ability in the game, you measure when you use it. It is consistent.

Edited by Vulf

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if you are inside a ship's firing arc and at Range 1-2, the upgrade doesn't work

There is no 'and' in the FAQ, and that makes quite a difference.

The way you write it, the Range measurement is separate from the fire arc.

The way the FAQ writes it, the Range is the Range of the attack, just like in the quotes I posted regarding the primary attack Range bonus dice.

 

 

 

If you are measuring range inside of the attackers arc and it is either a one or a two, there is no way you'll end up with a situation where the range outside of arc being longer will make a difference. It is easier to define when Autothrusters doesn't trigger than when it does. 

 

The "and" that Vorpal uses when he paraphrases the FAQ has to be assumed in the original text. Arc and range are two  separate conditions. It's grammatically possible to write it without using the word "and" but that doesn't make them a single condition. 

Edited by WWHSD

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while it might be grammatically possible to write it with or without the and, FFG consistently used 'in arc at Range' when discussing attack range, So they most definetly have different meanings in this discussion.

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