Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
WWHSD

Inquisitor and Autothrusters

Recommended Posts

I could have sworn that the when the Inquisitor was announced we discussed how his ability interacted with Autothrusters and the consensus was that he negated them. I'm not having a lot of luck finding that earlier (and possibly imagined) thread.

 

Vulf argued in another thread that The Inquisitor's ability doesn't negate Autothrusters. His argument makes a lot of sense. 

 

Vulf's argument is essentially that Autothrusters doesn't care what range attack it is defending against, just the range of the defender from the attacker. Is he correct? 

 

lpNeYHt.png

 

IOMB9gP.png

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Treat the range of the attack as 1" is pretty unambiguous.

 

If the defender still received Range 3 bonuses (or Autothruster) triggers, it would be "When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3, gain +1 die" or similar.

 

The way its written, while the Inquisitor is attacking, everything that would occur at Range 1 occurs, and nothing that doesn't does, as the attack is treated as Range 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

...based on the range of the attack.

This is not true.
c6quRYE.png
Autothrusters cannot be used on this Range 3 attack because the ships are at Range 2 from each other.
The card stipulates "if you are beyond Range 2", not "if the range of the attack is beyond Range 2". Whether this is a case of RAI or not doesn't matter (until it gets errata'd, if ever); RAW, the Inquisitor absolutely triggers Autothrusters if the defending ship is at Range 3.

 

 

You cut an important part of Autothruster:
 

When defending, if you are beyond Range 2[...].

 

You can only defend from an attack, which set the range at 1 here. So Autothruster doesn't work here.



EDIT: Autothruster use the same wording than the extra green dice from range 3 (but say beyond range 2 instead of at Range 3):


From from the Roll Defense Dice step of the Attack section of the Rules Reference:

• If defending at Range 3 against a primary weapon attack, the defender rolls one additional defense die.

 

So if Autotruster works, it makes the extra green dice works, which make The Inquisitor ability completly useless.

 


Then wrote:
 

Also, if you read Autothruster text:
 

When defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc,

 

It doesn't say beyond Range 2 of the attacker. The only information we have is that "When defending" which can only happens if you defend against an attack, so we should assume it is beyond Range 2 of the attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Autothrusters isn't an attack-based range bonus.

It's a ship-to-ship bonus that only triggers while defending.

The "When defending" wording doesn't incur treatment of the ships as being at the same Range as the attack. Attack range has always been treated separately from ship-to-ship range, and the wording of Autothrusters is the latter.

"When defending" is essential to make Autothrusters sensible, not to override the usual way of determining range of ships (closest point).

I agree that The Inquisitor denies the Range 3 die. I disagree that he precludes Autothrusters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then show me the "beyond Range 2" of Autothruster reference to what. Because it is nowhere said to be beyond Range 2 of the attacker.

It implies "of the attacker" because of the following statement about the attacker's firing arc.

Then show me where the rules say the range of an attack is used for all ship-to-ship measurements made during the attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Range 2' could be making reference specifically to the range ruler, given that it's the game component that determines range. If you're 'beyond range 2,' you're simply at or past the R2 boundary when distance is measured.

 

If you then read the Inquisitor's ability as effectively changing the range ruler to a giant '1', it seems like Autothrusters won't trigger.

 

However, if relative ship positions are the determining factor, then Autothrusters should trigger. But that also appears to be a reading based on assumption rather than explicit wording (i.e. what 'beyond range 2' actually means here. We don't have enough information to state that relative ship position is the determining factor).

 

The giant '1' is a quicker and more intuitive answer, so I think that's what's intended, but there's just enough information missing to require a clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll admit it's an interesting interaction between the cards but I would be highly surprised if a FAQ came saying anything other than autothrusters DONT trigger vs the Inquisitor.

You can only be considered the defender during an attack (pg 9, rules reference). The Inquisitors card text specifically states to treat the range of the attack as range 1. I understand the argument that autothrusters doesn't talk about the range of the attack but distance of the models, however as you must be defending for the ability to trigger (unlike carnor and the other pilots I seen used in the examples) and the attack is treated as range 1 I honestly can't see FFG ruling any other way other than to confirm the inquisitor negates autothrusters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Then show me the "beyond Range 2" of Autothruster reference to what. Because it is nowhere said to be beyond Range 2 of the attacker.

It implies "of the attacker" because of the following statement about the attacker's firing arc.

Then show me where the rules say the range of an attack is used for all ship-to-ship measurements made during the attack.

 

If you base it on the statement of the attacker's firing arc, then you should assume it is beyond range 2 of the attacker's attack (because you are defending, and defending only happens during an attack), not of the attacker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll admit it's an interesting interaction between the cards but I would be highly surprised if a FAQ came saying anything other than autothrusters DONT trigger vs the Inquisitor.

You can only be considered the defender during an attack (pg 9, rules reference). The Inquisitors card text specifically states to treat the range of the attack as range 1. I understand the argument that autothrusters doesn't talk about the range of the attack but distance of the models, however as you must be defending for the ability to trigger (unlike carnor and the other pilots I seen used in the examples) and the attack is treated as range 1 I honestly can't see FFG ruling any other way other than to confirm the inquisitor negates autothrusters

Nowhere on Autothruster cards there is a mention of the range between the ships. It just says "beyong Range 2", but doesn't say of what, so it has to be of the attack, since it is during defending.

Edited by Wildhorn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see what your saying and agree the wording is at best ambiguous however I'm stating that regardless of the needlessly complicated wording on autothrusters my opinion is that FFG intend the inquisitor to ignore ALL abilities which trigger outside of range 1.

Only a FAQ will really resolve this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Klutz posted this image awhile back in this thread. Using the HLC side of the diagram would seem to be the most applicable to the Inquisitor. Autothrusters is using the range of the attack, and not separate "closest point to closest points" range measurement in each example.

 

vqWDnnd.jpg

Proving that AT is using attack range, not ships to ships range. Thank you buddy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a nice diagram but it doesn't convince me. I might just be obstinate though. I don't think it is appropriate to insert words into the text on the card to meet the way you assume it works.

The wording for getting a bonus defense die at range 3 is different than the qualifiers for the Autothruster modify.

I could make the same bad assumptions with Zertik Strom when he and the Inquisitor are the only ones in play.

Just add "attacking" before "at range 1" and now Zertik is nerfing a range 3 Inquisitor.

It is the same mistake you get when adding words to Autothrusters. It changes the way it functions.

Edited by Vulf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could make the same bad assumptions with Zertik Strom when he and the Inquisitor are the only ones in play.

Just add "attacking" before "at range 1" and now Zertik is nerfing a range 3 Inquisitor.

Strom and Jax are a bad comparison here. Their abilities are measured from them and have nothing to do with the actual attack being made. A second measurement that is made independent of attack range measurement is made for their abilities.

What you are suggesting would require a second measurement to determine if Autothrusters would kick in if we aren't using the range of the attack that is being defended against.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I could make the same bad assumptions with Zertik Strom when he and the Inquisitor are the only ones in play.

Just add "attacking" before "at range 1" and now Zertik is nerfing a range 3 Inquisitor.

Strom and Jax are a bad comparison here. Their abilities are measured from them and have nothing to do with the actual attack being made. A second measurement that is made independent of attack range measurement is made for their abilities.

What you are suggesting would require a second measurement to determine if Autothrusters would kick in if we aren't using the range of the attack that is being defended against.

 

 

That's what I'm saying. The attacker measures for his attack range, and then when it gets time to modify defense dice, the defender measures to see if he is beyond range 2 to see if autothrusters works.

 

I'm saying for abilities with range qualifiers, you measure at the time they activate. Even if you just saw your opponent use the range tool when declaring the attack. You still have to measure to see if your abilities work. And this doesn't change just because the ability you are activating is on the same ship an attack was declared against.

 

When you have Serissu nearby, you measure from your defending ship over to him to see if that ability activates.

 

When you have Biggs out and someone is declaring an attack, you first check to if the defender is within range 1 of Biggs, then you check to see if Biggs is able to be attacked by the enemy before he has to change his target to Biggs.

 

When you've got Autothrusters, you measure to see if you are beyond range two when it is time to modify dice. Normally you only measure the part of the ship that is within firing arc and you would already know what range they are from measuring the attack.

This changes a little bit when using a turret, you first measure the closest point then see if any of the ship is sticking into the firing arcs at range 1-2.

 

I will change my opinion to the correct side of the argument and pretend I was never wrong if I see this in a faq somewhere though!

 

 

 

Consider Scum Boba Fett. He gets to reroll a die for each enemy at range 1. He could attack an enemy in arc at range 2 that was at an angle so that the closest point of the ship is actually range 1.

 

This works in reverse too. The tail end of Boba Fett can be in someone's firing arc at Range 2, but Boba Fett is at an angle, so the closest point of him is at range 1 from the attacker, so he gets a reroll.

 

You measure again when activating some abilities. I believe Autothrusters to be the same way, because it is worded differently than range 3 modifiers in the how to play instructions, that is all I am saying.

Edited by Vulf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I seem to be in the camp that Inquisitor negates autothrusters because why word his ability as "treat the range of the attack as range 1." It suggests he gets all range 1 advantages which  includes not activating autothrusters. I mean they might as well word Inquisitor's ability as just getting one additional attack die at range 2-3 if that is not the case. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

When you've got Autothrusters, you measure to see if you are beyond range two when it is time to modify dice.

 

 

There's only one measurement for range, when the attacker measures during the declare target step.

 

 

That is wrong.

 

You measure when taking the target lock action.

You measure to see if you are in range for support abilities such as Howlrunner's reroll.

Ships with turret weapons have to measure twice, per the faq, when firing at Autothruster ships.

You also have to measure multiple times when firing at your opponents ships if he has Biggs in play.

Edited by Vulf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But there's o lay one measurement for range when defending because you can o lay become a the defender when being attacked. That's why autotrusters does t need to state ...'beyond range 3 (of the attacker) because the only way you can be 'defending' is if you're being attacked. Are you beyond range 2, well it's easy to argue no because the Inquisitor tells you to treat the range of the attack as 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

When you've got Autothrusters, you measure to see if you are beyond range two when it is time to modify dice.

 

 

There's only one measurement for range, when the attacker measures during the declare target step.

 

 

That is wrong.

 

You measure when taking the target lock action.

You measure to see if you are in range for support abilities such as Howlrunner's reroll.

Ships with turret weapons have to measure twice, per the faq, when firing at Autothruster ships.

You also have to measure multiple times when firing at your opponents ships if he has Biggs in play.

 

 

OK cool so for my autothrusters to trigger I just have to be beyond range 2 of ...anything? So I will just measure from that asteroid, the board edge, the coffee machine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't act indignant.

When defending, you measure for every ability you have that can effect your defense roll or has some effect or triggers from the defense or being attacked or spending tokens to modify a roll.

 

Serissu, Scum Boba, Dengar, Prince Xizor,

Chaser, Carnor Jax, Captain Yorr (friend gets attacked by someone with Tactician, etc),

Kanan Jarus, Garvin Dreis, Biggs Darkleighter, Gemmer Sojan

 

All of these pilots may require you to measure distance when a ship is defending to see if any of their abilities is in range.

 

Shield Projector, Lone Wolf, Autothrusters also require measurements, Autothrusters is in the FAQ requiring two measurements when a turret is being used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For simplicity sake I want the Inquisitor to work at cancelling Autothrusters but the defender has the right to measure for his ability once he is declared as the defender. Because of this, Autothrusters should work against the Inquisitor.

 

But I wouldn't rule out a corner case FAQ.

 

"When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability. " Page 5, FAQ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Klutz posted this image awhile back in this thread. Using the HLC side of the diagram would seem to be the most applicable to the Inquisitor. Autothrusters is using the range of the attack, and not separate "closest point to closest points" range measurement in each example.

 

vqWDnnd.jpg

Proving that AT is using attack range, not ships to ships range. Thank you buddy.

 

 

It proves nothing. It's simply a good way of articulating one argument. I could make the same diagram with a different intepretation and it'd be no more proof.

 

 

 

It is Vulf that is correct.

 

The game has two range measurements: physical ship distance and attack range. Physical distance is used for things like Squad Leader, Autothrusters and most ship abilities such as Carnor Jax's ability. That is the range a ship is at.

 

Attack Range is the closest range band the defender is in in the firing arc of a ship and is used for determining bonus dice and the triggering of Range specific special abilities. Attacks and Mercenary Copilot use this.

Edited by Blue Five

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability. " Page 5, FAQ

 

 

This is something I wasnt aware of and does make the case reasonable tbf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...