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jack_px

Questions about Irradiated

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I just wanted to ask, do you think that traits like daemonic, undying, the stuff of nightmares or machine, protect against irradiate??, or this type of damage, remove toughness to any creature??

Thanks in advance

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The Irradiated weapons remove the base Toughness of any creature not the Bonus granted from Daemonic or Machine Trait. Machine grant Armour points Daemonic grant extra Toughness bonus they are unaffected. Undying and Stuff of Nightmares are another case. I think undying protects from toxins and poisoning interpreted in a more traditional meaning.  The stuff of Nightmares as it contains " most environmental hazards"  actually could protect against radiation. But I'm not that kind of a Gm... :D

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Radiation damage should really be something that only affects living tissue. That's what makes such weapons effective (see Fallout etc) and that rad poisoning doesn't really have any impact on machines or those with unnatural or evolved physiology to cope with it. Lethal versus humans but ineffective against machine or critter. Unfortunately the weapon quality doesn't specify this and this might be where you need to consider some discussion with players/GM about their thoughts.

 

Going on the above then and specifically since it's radiation poisoning:

  • Daemonic as a trait states that it grants immunity to poison or disease. I'd give it to the daemon on that one and say that they are in the clear. Radiation should do sod all against something whos flesh and body are made from the stuff of the warp.
  • The same applies for "Stuff of nightmares" as again, it states immunity to poisons and disease as well as environmental. Impossible to comprehend alien anatomy at work.
  • Undying, same again, I'd give it to the critter on that one since it's a resistance to poisons.
  • The Machine trait doesn't grant immunity to poisons so I would be suggesting to rule it in part. A character partially augmented by machine still has a squishy bit to irradiate however a Necron warrior has no organic component left and so should be immune to it as too should vehicles.

All in all, a rather interesting weapon effect to consider but would be one for you to review and come to your own conclusions on.

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Yea i think the fallout idea of radiation is what im looking for, actually we got this problem because the heretic were in combat with the avatar khaine of the eldar and they had a weapon with rad, at that moment we agreed in some way that the avatar shouldnt be affected by it. And i had the same thought about the necrons.

Edited by jack_px

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Yea i think the fallout idea of radiation is what im looking for, actually we got this problem because the heretic were in combat with the avatar khaine of the eldar and they had a weapon with rad, at that moment we agreed in some way that the avatar shouldnt be affected by it. And i had the same thought about the necrons.

In that case, hell no. The avatar is a fragment of a god so using rad on that is pointless. It's physiology is beyond comprehension.

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Yea i think the fallout idea of radiation is what im looking for, actually we got this problem because the heretic were in combat with the avatar khaine of the eldar and they had a weapon with rad, at that moment we agreed in some way that the avatar shouldnt be affected by it. And i had the same thought about the necrons.

In that case, hell no. The avatar is a fragment of a god so using rad on that is pointless. It's physiology is beyond comprehension.

 

Definitely. It might just make it last longer - who the hell knows how it works? It certainly isn't going to hurt it, assuming it notices the radiation exists (it probably doesn't, actually).

Much the same with Necrons - their ships can and regularly do eat stars raw - rads just might be absorbed and turned into power.

Actually ... about the only thing that using Rad on could/would definitely be worse idea would probably be a C'than (shard/fragment/otherwise). That's dumber than pulling the pin on a plasma grenade and swallowing it. Because then you're not making yourself an enemy, you're declaring yourself to be its lunch. Or maybe just a snack.

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Radiation damage should really be something that only affects living tissue. 

I think you are wrong on that one.

 

 

From wiki:

Effects on materials and devices[edit]

Radiation may affect materials and devices in deleterious ways:

  • By causing the materials to become radioactive (mainly by neutron activation, or in presence of high-energy gamma radiation by photodisintegration).
  • By nuclear transmutation of the elements within the material including, for example, the production of Hydrogen and Helium which can in turn alter the mechanical properties of the materials and cause swelling and embrittlement.
  • By radiolysis (breaking chemical bonds) within the material, which can weaken it, cause it to swell, polymerize, promote corrosion, cause belittlements, promote cracking or otherwise change its desirable mechanical, optical, or electronic properties.
  • By formation of reactive compounds, affecting other materials (e.g. ozone cracking by ozone formed by ionization of air).
  • By ionization, causing electrical breakdown, particularly in semiconductors employed in electronic equipment, with subsequent currents introducing operation errors or even permanently damaging the devices. Devices intended for high radiation environments such as the nuclear industry and extra atmospheric (space) applications may be made radiation hard to resist such effects through design, material selection, and fabrication methods.

Many of the radiation effects on materials are produced by collision cascades and covered by radiation chemistry.

 

 

Also Radiation is more like an environmental hazard rather than a kind of poison....(like fire, acid.....)

Edited by Athanatosz

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Valid point old chap, however I've considered that despite it's dwindling technology from its glory days, ive assumed that basic human machinery and technology would be resistant to the effects of irradiation especially materials such as ceramite, armaplas, plasteel and adamantium. Especially since much of this is used in the construction of vessels or items that endure the background solar radiation of space. Unfortunately GW have never released the technical specs of these substances to be sure so you may indeed be right and that rad is a big issue. For all intent and purpose though for radiation to affect machines to such a level I believe the exposure would have to be substantial to the point that rad weapons would likely irradiate their operator at the same time due to the high concentration. So yes I will grant you it could work but the damage would be so minor it isn't worth considering. Mobs can't lose 0.000...hp

Additionally necrons are living metal currently of an unknown type and composition but given some can stand being obliterated by the likes of a D weapon and still be able to self repair it is also assumed that rad is negligible.

I also take your point on it being environmental and based the initial purely on the wording of poisoning. It's a nice open to debate argument depending how you consider radiation. For the purposes of simplicity I'd go with the Fallout logic of how to apply it.

Edited by Calgor Grim

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You shuffle things like spaceship technology and cybernetics. It does not make your statement valid. One was purpose built to withstand environmental hazards other to replicate or enchant human physiology.  In Black Crusade  irradiated weapons are commonly Daemon engines which give a slaanesh about the self damage as Stuff of nightmares or common sense to holding a some what stable weapon or they are grenades and missles which unleash radiation after they explode. More i think about the topic stuff of nightmares  will protect in my games but undying and machine will not. (Of course power armour and other environmentally sealed and sealed against space suit will help as always. From the gaming Fallout side I will go with the Desolators from Red Alert 2-3. 

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You shuffle things like spaceship technology and cybernetics. It does not make your statement valid. One was purpose built to withstand environmental hazards other to replicate or enchant human physiology.  In Black Crusade  irradiated weapons are commonly Daemon engines which give a slaanesh about the self damage as Stuff of nightmares or common sense to holding a some what stable weapon or they are grenades and missles which unleash radiation after they explode. More i think about the topic stuff of nightmares  will protect in my games but undying and machine will not. (Of course power armour and other environmentally sealed and sealed against space suit will help as always. From the gaming Fallout side I will go with the Desolators from Red Alert 2-3. 

 

I was more referencing that the same materials seem commonplace all across the Imperium. I think the periodic table of 40k building materials has probably got only five substances and everything is a combination of those and that if they survive rad exposure in space then it stands to reason that when used in other contexts, like machines etc, should be fine and that the substance itself will hold up albeit less dense...I'll agree to disagree though, I'd house rule it to be a no personally but I can see your argument.

 

Also IIRC, desolators, while working against light vehicles and infantry, didn't work against machine units like terror drones or robot tanks :)

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i want to make things simple because if not we will lose time arguing a lot about if some tipes of machines are vulnerable to radiation or not, so i honestly preffer the fallout idea and think that  things like robots should not lose toughness by radiation xD, because then people with more information about it will argue meaby about the different kinds of radiation and things like that and i dont want to become that specific xD

Edited by jack_px

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In real life radiation wrecks havoc on machines.  The Japan nuclear reactor destroyed drones left and right that were sent in.  The unhealthy radiation types are ionizing which mess with machines just as much as biology.

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Frankly if you say that demons are immune to radiation you're in the position of questioning why, for example, laser weapons work on them? Assuming rad weapons use gamma radiation it's all energetic photons anyway. OTOH rad weapons in 40k don't work like anything plausible IRL so it's fantasy tech to begin with. The scary thing about Rad weapons is that any given dude can carry and throw a Rad grenade, so things like a Squiggoth or Bloodthirster could be killed by several dozen rad grenades being lobbed assuming you could find a Commissar bad enough to keep the guardsmen organized. 

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So wrapping things to gather:

Daemons (Daemonic trait) and machines (Machine trait) should not be immune to the effects of irradiated weapons.

Undying and Stuff of Nightmares could work. Also Stuff of Nightmares protects against environmental hazards which is a wider area so the likeness is increased.... 

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Frankly if you say that demons are immune to radiation you're in the position of questioning why, for example, laser weapons work on them? Assuming rad weapons use gamma radiation it's all energetic photons anyway. OTOH rad weapons in 40k don't work like anything plausible IRL so it's fantasy tech to begin with. The scary thing about Rad weapons is that any given dude can carry and throw a Rad grenade, so things like a Squiggoth or Bloodthirster could be killed by several dozen rad grenades being lobbed assuming you could find a Commissar bad enough to keep the guardsmen organized. 

Wait, there are las weapons that can actually damage something?! Who knew... ;)

 

The logic here is that a daemon usually exists in a far more dangerous and perilous domain than any galactic terror. You could have a planet constantly bombarded by meteors, full of the most virulent plagues, ice ages, radiation, disease and cataclysmic events and it would seem like a rose garden compared to various regions of the warp which has terrors and conditions that some of us could probably not even fathom. If a daemon survives in a maelstrom of energy, essence, emotion and all manner of whatsits, the idea of it being affected by environmental problems like radiation on our plane of existence seems a bit of a questionable one. Hence a suggestion that such things as rad should be trivial to a daemon.

 

And then Necrons, well they should just shrug it off as well. Their anatomy is far beyond mortal comprehension, their very construction is unknown and of a substance that the Ordo Xenos have not fully understood.

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Wait, there are las weapons that can actually damage something?! Who knew... ;)

Than say hello to my little friend the las-cannon. One shot marine-maimer...

 

You seems to think pretty much about daemons. They are just change coins in the eye of they gods. Countless of them die every moment in the Daemon worlds and birth as many if not more in the instant moment....  These are the lesser Daemons. Of course the have stuff of nightmares which can protect against radiation. 

 

For Necron toaster arms see haywire which cause microwave or electromagnetic radiation, which in a lower frequency then laser or radiation.

Well yeah seems Necron warriors and any other Machine trait bearer can me toasted with a microwave-oven (a really big one, I look at you warp-smiths)

 

So: Can a las-cannon kill a Necron or a Daemon?

Or Possible to harm a Machine trait owner whit a haywire weapon?

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honestly im not question the idea of the damage, what i do question is the lose of thoughness, honestly i cant see how a daemon could lose toughness trough radiation. Yeah you can damage them, but the lose of toughness, and even dying because of radiation, its like dying because of a disease to me.

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It's worth noting

 

honestly im not question the idea of the damage, what i do question is the lose of thoughness, honestly i cant see how a daemon could lose toughness trough radiation. Yeah you can damage them, but the lose of toughness, and even dying because of radiation, its like dying because of a disease to me.

 

Very, very different. A 'disease' (by this I assume you mean a viral or bacterial infection) is caused by foreign biological organisms or molecules - radiation 'poisoning' is caused by electromagnetic radiation or small subatomic particles bombarding the unfortunate victim, not at all dissimilar from the photons from a las weapon. You might as well call a bullet wound 'kinetic energy poisoning' and reason that demons should be immune to that, too. It's worth noting that the damage is caused by literal energy transfer due to interior parts of the victim's body being impacted by said ionizing radiation, not unlike sticking something in a microwave (or, as us 40k fans would describe it, a melta-gun). 

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