Multiple Orc Taskmasters in play

[Seastan 1,324]

 

If there are 2 Orc Taskmasters in play, and I deal damage to a Goblin enemy with 2 resources on it, can I remove both resources?

 

One argument would be that when the damage is dealt both Forced effects trigger simultaneously. Then I resolve each of them. Since the effect uses the word "and", it does not matter that I cannot fully resolve the effect the second time, I just resolve it as much as possible by removing a second resource token.

 

Another argument would be that after the effect resolves the first time, the damage is cancelled and there is no longer a trigger for the second effect. 

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

I think you can remove 2 resources for the reasoning you gave.  Once the damage is dealt, both Forced effects are triggered.  You resolve them in the order you choose.  For the second, there is no damage left to be cancelled, but as you say, the wording of the card is "remove a resource and cancel damage," so you can still remove that resource (would be different if it said "cancel damage, then remove a resource").

[Seastan 1,324]

I love finding counters to the unwritten rule "whatever is harder for the player"  .

[NathanH 350]

Oh great, a question where multiple Forced effects are in play and there is cancellation involved...

 

I have no idea what the designers intend to happen in such circumstances. My inclination would be that the two effects don't occur simultaneously, with the system being

X occurs
  X is the current trigger
  Choose a Forced effect for this trigger that has not been resolved
    Resolve this forced effect and any consequences
    Return to previous level
  X is the current trigger
  Choose a Forced effect for this trigger that has not been resolved
    Etc
  X is the current trigger
  Activate a Response effect for this trigger that has not been resolved
    etc
  X is the current trigger
  No further responses
  Return to the previous level
Play continues

In this setup, after the damage is cancelled, we don't return to the "Enemy has been dealt damage" trigger but skip straight back to "Play continues".

 

No idea whether this is what the designers intend, but it seems a concrete system.

Edited January 4, 2016 by NathanH

[cmabr002 292]

 

If there are 2 Orc Taskmasters in play, and I deal damage to a Goblin enemy with 2 resources on it, can I remove both resources?

 

One argument would be that when the damage is dealt both Forced effects trigger simultaneously. Then I resolve each of them. Since the effect uses the word "and", it does not matter that I cannot fully resolve the effect the second time, I just resolve it as much as possible by removing a second resource token.

 

Another argument would be that after the effect resolves the first time, the damage is cancelled and there is no longer a trigger for the second effect. 

 

I think both arguments make sense and I'm having trouble finding a prior ruling that clarifies it for me...

 

Didn't they previously rule that if you "cancel" something, you would have to go back and change everything else that triggered off that (even though we didn't like the time-traveling paradox it created)?  Wasn't the example with Wingfoot and Quick Ears or something?

Edited January 4, 2016 by cmabr002

[PocketWraith 553]

I think you would only remove one resource, by your second argument. Once you resolve one Forced effect the trigger for the second is no longer a thing.

[JanB 85]

tricky .. without the cancel effect i would say 2 resources. But as cmabr002 says .. it feels like quick ears and wingfoot. 

[Seastan 1,324]

From Caleb:

 

You can only remove 1 resource from the Goblin in question. Both Forced effects trigger at the same time, but you must fully resolve one before attempting to resolve the other. After the first one resolves, the enemy can no longer take damage, so you cannot remove 1 resource to cancel damage since it is no longer taking damage.

 

Still doesn't sit well with me but there it is.

[Slothgodfather 270]

imagine if, instead of 2 taskmasters, you had the usual one and then another enemy with the text "When a Goblin enemy with at least 1 resource on it is dealt any amount of damage, remove 1 resource from that enemy and add that resource to a hero of your choice."

 

In this case, you have two Forced reactions that happen at the same time.  You get to determine the order of resolution when Forced triggers would have conflicting or simultaneous results.  If you resolve the taskmaster first, the damage is cancelled and therefore the new forced ability does not resolve since it's condition of "is dealt any amount of damage" no longer applies at the time you are trying to resolve it.  If you resolve the new trigger first, 1 resource is removed - and given to a hero and in this case the enemy is still going to take damage, so the second Forced trigger will continue to activate and cancel the damage.  

 

Basically, while Forced effects would typically go off simultaneously, they occasionally still have to resolve in a particular order due to conflicts.  So they aren't actually simultaneous, but more triggered in the order decided by the players.

[Seastan 1,324]

imagine if, instead of 2 taskmasters, you had the usual one and then another enemy with the text "When a Goblin enemy with at least 1 resource on it is dealt any amount of damage, remove 1 resource from that enemy and add that resource to a hero of your choice."

 

In this case, you have two Forced reactions that happen at the same time.  You get to determine the order of resolution when Forced triggers would have conflicting or simultaneous results.  If you resolve the taskmaster first, the damage is cancelled and therefore the new forced ability does not resolve since it's condition of "is dealt any amount of damage" no longer applies at the time you are trying to resolve it.  If you resolve the new trigger first, 1 resource is removed - and given to a hero and in this case the enemy is still going to take damage, so the second Forced trigger will continue to activate and cancel the damage.  

 

Basically, while Forced effects would typically go off simultaneously, they occasionally still have to resolve in a particular order due to conflicts.  So they aren't actually simultaneous, but more triggered in the order decided by the players.

 

But even in the second case, you cancelled the damage, so you have to go back and undo the resource swap from the first effect. At least, that's what the Wingfoot/Quick Ears ruling would seem to imply.

[Seastan 1,324]

For example, Gloin and Close Call are both responses with the same trigger. After Gloin takes damage, you aren't allowed to take the resources then play Close Call to cancel the damage are you?

 

Hmm, that leads me to a new question that I will post in a separate topic.

[JanB 85]

From Caleb:

 

You can only remove 1 resource from the Goblin in question. Both Forced effects trigger at the same time, but you must fully resolve one before attempting to resolve the other. After the first one resolves, the enemy can no longer take damage, so you cannot remove 1 resource to cancel damage since it is no longer taking damage.

 

Still doesn't sit well with me but there it is.

 

I'm with you, because wording is not "remove 1 resource from that enemy to cancel all damage just dealt to it."

But the intention of the taskmasters ability is that the resources should work as a shield so in your interpretation two taskmasters would weaken the Goblins instead of giving them a good shield.

[Slothgodfather 270]

I'm not familiar with the quick ears/wingfoot ruling.  what was that?

[cmabr002 292]

I'm not familiar with the quick ears/wingfoot ruling.  what was that?

 

1. Exhaust wingfoot (say enemy)

2. Reveal enemy

3. Passive ability from Wingfoot readies hero with Wingfoot

4. Play response from Quick Ears to cancel the enemy just revealed

5. Go back in time and unready your hero that you readied with Wingfoot

 

At least, I think that was the ruling... lol.  Hard to remember everything at this point.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

He didn't specifically say that you have to unready the hero, he said something to the effect of "Wingfoot won't work with Quick Ears."  Probably he was thinking that Wingfoot would trigger after your opportunity to play Quick Ears, but the consensus seems to be the opposite... and as a result that ruling created a big time travel discussion.

[Slothgodfather 270]

Any time there is a "cancel" type effect, I tend to treat that as an interrupt instead of just a response, so that it is interrupting the enemy being revealed - as is the case with Quick Ears.  So you'd play that card before Wingfoot's effect would kick in.  Mainly it's from playing Game of Thrones, but I always play cancels first, then responses to whatever did actually happen when eligible.  

 

I can see where Wingfoot/Quickears creates a paradox though, since I'd argue the timing of Wingfoot happens immediately after an enemy is revealed, due to it being a passive effect at that point. Then you use the response of Quick Ears to cancel the card.   I understand that isn't how it's been ruled, but it makes more sense to be able to do it that way - to me.

[NathanH 350]

Quick Ears should probably read "Cancel an enemy card as it is revealed from the encounter deck", matching Thalin's wording. Another possibility would be "If an enemy would be revealed from the encounter deck, cancel it"; this would jump ahead even of Thalin.