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zlynn22

Guidance Chips - Losing Faith in FFG

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Well I like their products! I run an Edge of destiny campaign for my group of friends, it was a hard sell for the ones that weren't huge Star Wars fans.

 

Back in the days of Wave 1, when I only owned 3 TIE Fighters, 2 Advanceds, and a Firespray, it was pretty hard to play 100 point lists, because I Always wanted to use tons of upgrades.

 

My random scum lists were using 3 Scyks with 3 different cannons and a Starviper!

 

I am aware of how great Y-wings are, but I don't own any. Waiting for Most Wanted restocks. There's a bunch of YV-666 builds I've been waiting to try, this weeks feels like the time.

Edited by Vulf

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I find 120 and 150 only enjoyable in escalation style. The game is well built for 100 points and it just feels unwieldy when it goes into the 100-200 point region. That said, maybe your brother enjoys the lists? Just because he doesn't have the same style as you doesn't mean he's trying to prove anything. Much like most of this thread.

the game is best played at 120

at this point aces stop being OP with their stacks of tokens and firepower concentration allows downing a ship at a time even for non-howlie-swarm lists.

 

 

My random scum lists were using 3 Scyks with 3 different cannons and a Starviper!

 

 

My random Scum don't stand much chance at 100.

weeeeelll..... that seems to be the problem. 

scyks are sick and scyks mostly suck

and starviper is counterproductive in current ace-filled meta

Edited by Warpman

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Maybe because Most Wanted is kick-starter for THE GLORIOUS SPACE PIRATE MERCENARY FACTION?

With expansion-only you'll hardly build an interesting, and I'm not even saying "competitive" list >_>
IGs maybe, yes

 

but hardly much more.

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Okay, I disagreed with the OP's opinion entirely, his view that ordnance need be fixed, and that ships must be 100% OT which I feel is a narrow-minded viewpoint within the context of a game. I did not insult him, I disagreed with him.

 

FFG are far from perfect, but they also playtest stuff within the context of the current meta. They may not always get it right, ala the Phantom, but it is playtested. The TIE Advance was once viable and then it became obsolete until it was patched. Nothing can always be fixed, with so many moving parts in the game, things will occasionally fall from favor.

 

Ordnance, FFG most likely playtested this in various ways too, and in the context of Wave 1, Proton Torps were not bad, 4 attack dice at range 2-3, with a focus to crit conversion. It meant you didn't need to be in range 1 to get 4 attack dice, and there was a high probability of a crit, which in turn could one shot a TIE Advanced assuming that crit was a direct hit.

 

FFG don't see a big problem with ordnance, they see small complaints that are addressed individually, such as having an extra reload, unable to target lock until you are in attack range, and now a lack of quality on dice.

 

Target lock is a very powerful and potent ability, I also play Attack Wing, and dice levels can get ridiculous in that with the most dice I've seen rolled is 10 Attack dice, along with a target lock and a battlestations (that games focus) that was successful in one shotting my Enterprise E. It was not a very fun game for me. If you make ordnance not discard, you have issues of ships easily reusing ordnance such as proton rockets, to do massive damage. Being able to use the target lock means there is a higher chance of getting a full hit roll which for your opponent, once you are rolling a lot more than they can evade it becomes a futile effort for them and even could negatively impact their enjoyment of the game.

 

If FFG thought it was a problem, they would have changed it in the Force Awakens core set. The fact they didn't seems to suggest to me they know how potent ordnance can be and make them more worth it through card balancing. Yes Guidance Chip is free....but it takes a modslot. Would I want it to go there in place of other useful mods, like Engine Upgrade, Shield Upgrade, Autothrusters etc? I don't know, depends on the situation.

Edited by Ebak

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I aim for 100pts with my friends but if they want to beef their list up (they are always borrowing from my collection) then we just set the point limit as whatever it is.

People on this forum need to remember that the vast majority of play is casual and doesn't give a **** about 'the meta'. If you go on a mountain biking forum, I'm sure it's full of people discussing the most aerodynamic mudguards and which aftermarket handlebars give slightly better performance; this doesn't change the fact that most mountain bike owners are kids who play out with their friends.

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I find 120 and 150 only enjoyable in escalation style. The game is well built for 100 points and it just feels unwieldy when it goes into the 100-200 point region. That said, maybe your brother enjoys the lists? Just because he doesn't have the same style as you doesn't mean he's trying to prove anything. Much like most of this thread.

the game is best played at 120

at this point aces stop being OP with their stacks of tokens and firepower concentration allows downing a ship at a time even for non-howlie-swarm lists.

After going to so many tournaments, playing this game for 3 years, this is the defeatist attitude I hate. Aces are fine, its the mentality here that has given them some weird super suit of armor that baffles me. Aces fall just fine under tactics. I remember when people only complained about generics and that named pilots never saw their due. Or that EU was over priced and useless on big ships. Funny how this game has ebbed and flowed as such.

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If you're a casual player, just proxy it. No problem.

 

GET 'EM!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

ZOING!!!

:D :D :D

 

Is it so wrong to like to have stuff?  I like to have the stuff.  The real stuff.

 

I can understand this really well actually. I also would rather not play than to proxy. But that's probably just me.

 

And i know a player who just prints out a list from Voidstate every time, with all the rules and puts counters on that while playing. He does also only play in (small) tournaments if we accept that fact. I am okay with this, for casual gaming and these small 6-8 player tournaments. Also because i know he buys so much stuff that he probably has all the required cards, he just won't search them every time he plays.

 

But in this case i have no Problem i think. I will get 2 TAP's and a Punishing One, so i will have 4 copies if understood that correctly. Could someone confirm that tehre are two of these in the Punishing One? I can't find the place where this is spoiled!

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Why force me to buy multiple copies of some goofy-looking pretend TIE Fighter from a show geared towards kids, invented when I was an adult... Even if you love the show, I still stand by my point. I have to buy copies of this ridiculous ship to "fix" ordnance that has been broken for SEVEN WAVES NOW? Trust me, I have too many proton torpedoes to count.

How are you "forced" exactly? Does someone from fantasy flight hold a gun to your head and say "buy or die"? Are you ignorant of secondary marketplaces where you can buy single cards?

The real issue i have is this: you dont like Rebels, fine. Thats on you. But to complain about the design being goofy and designed when you are an adult is full of over-inflated self worth. So only the goody looking TIEs when you were a kid are allowed? Because the original is goofy. I still like it though.

Also; you realise that there is no such thing as a real TIE fighter right? They are all make believe.

Again, I don't want to lose all faith, but this is taking me many steps towards the dark side. I have spent a lot of money on these plastic space ships, but if FFG keeps doing stuff like this, that money may dry up. Just my two cents / thousand dollars.

What say the people?

Worried about falling to the dark side? Keep walking till you hit a bottomless pit, and then fall. Edited by That Blasted Samophlange

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Disclaimer, stopped reading at page 2.

Engine upgrade. Hull upgrade. Long range Sensors, Munitions failsafe. TIE MKII. Guidance chimps, Autothrusters.

 

 

Which of these are Autoinclude?

 

Pick one son.

 

Sure, maybe originally the ships should have had all these features. I'm actually kinda glad they don't , means they need to be kitted out for certain roles.

Edited by DariusAPB

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Hello community.

I am a casual player who owns a lot of stuff.

Why force me to buy multiple copies of some goofy-looking pretend TIE Fighter from a show geared towards kids, invented when I was an adult... Even if you love the show, I still stand by my point.

I trimmed out the rest of your post OP since the other stuff didn't matter in the context of your complaints.

First, proxy cards if you are a casual player. If the players you play against in a casual setting get their panties in a bunch about using proxy cards in a casual setting it isn't worth your time to play against them anyway.

Second, you don't have to buy any TAP's to get a copy of Guidance Chimps. Dengar and his Punishing One/Jumpmaster 5000 comes with 2 copies.

Now can we please put this silly thread to rest?

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I think this issue is coming up more often and I do see a couple of sides to it.  Often these sides get confused into the same thing and they are not!
 
Side 1 - Upgrades for diversity:  Many if not most like upgrades and diversity.  This adds a level of depth to the game and tons of variety.  Many say 'keep'em com'in'.  Others are asking when will it be enough?  Good question and I don't know if there is an answer to this one.  Maybe never or until another bright and shiny game comes along and replaces it.  Side Note:  I like variety too and love many of these neat options.  I do wonder sometimes if it will ever stop.  I wanted to be a Star Wars ship collector not an upgrade card collector.  Now I'm both with far more cards than ships.  As long as neat stuff is coming out I guess I'm in for now.
 
So I'll just move on to the other side of this issue.
 
Side 2 - Upgrades that are actually for balance, fixes and buffs:  Many look at their personal favorite ships and say 'if only...'.  The TIE Adv. was terrible; the A-Wing definitely over priced;  TIE Defender is over costed; TIE Phantom is game breaking.  We could go on.  So what do we do?  If we do nothing some ships rarely or never get used.  To me that's okay if they are situational (a bad word on this forum I know).  But some like the TIE Adv. and A-Wing are just not worth taking without fixes.  Others, like the X-Wing, need just a little love or a slight buff and there are ships in between.
 
Side 2 - continued.  So the model that Fantasy Flight has adopted to fix these ships is primarily in the release upgrade cards.  There are a few buffs and nerfs in the FAQ but far more cards.  The problem arises when there are so many fixes, buffs and nudges it simply becomes overwhelming and honestly costly to play what you already own.  There are so many fixes out there many casual players just don't know what normally goes with what.  New players now need to be told that the A-Wing requires the Refit and TIE Interceptors are rarely flown without a Title, Stealth and AutoThrusters.  This simply isn't obvious and from many people's perspective isn't adding variety but bloated complication.
 
I have found myself hoping for an X-Wing 2.0 that have all of these "auto-includes" as part of the standard game.  I would rather see three times as many TIE Defender pilot cards, 1/3 with one title, 1/3 half with the other and 1/3 with no title than searching though tons of upgrade cards and trying to remember all of the different things I'm suppose to add.  Was that a title or a mod?  What that a missile upgrade or a torpedo that made it work better.  Why wouldn't you take a negative upgrade on an A-Wing unless you're planning on being a missile carrier.  Okay then give me two different A-Wing cards.  One interceptor and one ordnance carrier.  Then you'd get even more diversity in ships but fewer fixes in the form or 'upgrades'.  
 
I'm partly like ForceM.  I HATE proxy cards for my own use; I don't mind them for others and I do print out squads whenever possible (Note:  I have at least 2 of every small and 1 of every large/huge so I do have all of the cards).  I want to own the proper components and play the game.  But I've gotten to the begrudged point where I just am tired of spending money on StarVipers to play my TIE Interceptors.  Also I tend to supply for both sides, even 400 point epic games, so with all of my purchases I still don't have enough cards and am forced to proxy or buy ships I will never use.  I have one each of the Huge ships but I now can either buy two Gonzanti to get enough Generators and Protocols or proxy them.  Any please stop suggesting I go to the after market.  You're missing the point.  I will proxy but it takes part of the fun out of the game for me.  Yuck.
 

Summary:

  • Diversity is fun and mostly we like it, me too.
  • Fixes are getting overwhelming and a bit complicated to remember.  Also paying for unrelated or semi-related expansions to fix ships is a bit painful.
  • Proxies work but for many that takes part of the fun out of the game.  So some won't do it or allow it and others do but it is not the same as actually owning the game.
  • It does appear that we are getting closer to a 2.0 but will this add to the upgrade fixes or combine them on the ships.
  • This is a forum with a lot of people talking about X-Wing and their thoughts, opinions, question and suggestions.  If you're only contribution to people's sincere concerns are insults you're probably on the wrong board.  This is a big world and I'm sure there is a forum out there for rude and nasty people.  And that is just another thought.

Just my two cents.  Hope it's okay.

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@Ken at Sunrise: I get not wanting to proxy cards even in casual play but if you or anyone else has consciously made that decision then you (or they) waive any rights to complain about what you have to purchase to get the cards you refuse to purchase. You can complain all you want but you've already invalidated anything you have to say on the topic.

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@Ken at Sunrise: I get not wanting to proxy cards even in casual play but if you or anyone else has consciously made that decision then you (or they) waive any rights to complain about what you have to purchase to get the cards you refuse to purchase. You can complain all you want but you've already invalidated anything you have to say on the topic.

 

You're saying by having proxys I no longer care or I should simply keep my mouth shut?

 

I don't think you understand my concerns.  But that's okay too.

 

[Edit] P.S. maybe because I do own so much and still need to proxy I am concerned.  Sorry you feel simply because I have proxies my opinions are invalid.

Edited by Ken at Sunrise

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I think this issue is coming up more often and I do see a couple of sides to it. Often these sides get confused into the same thing and they are not!

Side 1 - Upgrades for diversity: Many if not most like upgrades and diversity. This adds a level of depth to the game and tons of variety. Many say 'keep'em com'in'. Others are asking when will it be enough? Good question and I don't know if there is an answer to this one. Maybe never or until another bright and shiny game comes along and replaces it. Side Note: I like variety too and love many of these neat options. I do wonder sometimes if it will ever stop. I wanted to be a Star Wars ship collector not an upgrade card collector. Now I'm both with far more cards than ships. As long as neat stuff is coming out I guess I'm in for now.

So I'll just move on to the other side of this issue.

Side 2 - Upgrades that are actually for balance, fixes and buffs: Many look at their personal favorite ships and say 'if only...'. The TIE Adv. was terrible; the A-Wing definitely over priced; TIE Defender is over costed; TIE Phantom is game breaking. We could go on. So what do we do? If we do nothing some ships rarely or never get used. To me that's okay if they are situational (a bad word on this forum I know). But some like the TIE Adv. and A-Wing are just not worth taking without fixes. Others, like the X-Wing, need just a little love or a slight buff and there are ships in between.

Side 2 - continued. So the model that Fantasy Flight has adopted to fix these ships is primarily in the release upgrade cards. There are a few buffs and nerfs in the FAQ but far more cards. The problem arises when there are so many fixes, buffs and nudges it simply becomes overwhelming and honestly costly to play what you already own. There are so many fixes out there many casual players just don't know what normally goes with what. New players now need to be told that the A-Wing requires the Refit and TIE Interceptors are rarely flown without a Title, Stealth and AutoThrusters. This simply isn't obvious and from many people's perspective isn't adding variety but bloated complication.

I have found myself hoping for an X-Wing 2.0 that have all of these "auto-includes" as part of the standard game. I would rather see three times as many TIE Defender pilot cards, 1/3 with one title, 1/3 half with the other and 1/3 with no title than searching though tons of upgrade cards and trying to remember all of the different things I'm suppose to add. Was that a title or a mod? What that a missile upgrade or a torpedo that made it work better. Why wouldn't you take a negative upgrade on an A-Wing unless you're planning on being a missile carrier. Okay then give me two different A-Wing cards. One interceptor and one ordnance carrier. Then you'd get even more diversity in ships but fewer fixes in the form or 'upgrades'.

I'm partly like ForceM. I HATE proxy cards for my own use; I don't mind them for others and I do print out squads whenever possible (Note: I have at least 2 of every small and 1 of every large/huge so I do have all of the cards). I want to own the proper components and play the game. But I've gotten to the begrudged point where I just am tired of spending money on StarVipers to play my TIE Interceptors. Also I tend to supply for both sides, even 400 point epic games, so with all of my purchases I still don't have enough cards and am forced to proxy or buy ships I will never use. I have one each of the Huge ships but I now can either buy two Gonzanti to get enough Generators and Protocols or proxy them. Any please stop suggesting I go to the after market. You're missing the point. I will proxy but it takes part of the fun out of the game for me. Yuck.

Summary:

  • Diversity is fun and mostly we like it, me too.
  • Fixes are getting overwhelming and a bit complicated to remember. Also paying for unrelated or semi-related expansions to fix ships is a bit painful.
  • Proxies work but for many that takes part of the fun out of the game. So some won't do it or allow it and others do but it is not the same as actually owning the game.
  • It does appear that we are getting closer to a 2.0 but will this add to the upgrade fixes or combine them on the ships.
  • This is a forum with a lot of people talking about X-Wing and their thoughts, opinions, question and suggestions. If you're only contribution to people's sincere concerns are insults you're probably on the wrong board. This is a big world and I'm sure there is a forum out there for rude and nasty people. And that is just another thought.
Just my two cents. Hope it's okay.
This is an eloquent and well written response, perhaps the thing the OP should have received on the first couple of pages instead of " go quit whiner" and "don't let the door hit you on the way out"

I agree 100% with what you have said, extra cards and mods for ships that have fallen out of favour, will help the diversity but putting random cards in various waves to help fix a core mechanic I don't think is helping.

I recall when I joined this crazy ride just after wave 3, back then people theorising an upcoming ordanance fix and what it would come with( Bomber Aces I think was mentioned) well we have had various band aids since then but I believe its too late for the ordnance corpse, it bled out several waves ago.

I am a fanboy by the way and spend far too much on this fab game but I beleive this is an issue that can only be properly corrected by X wing 2.0 or some major errata( phantom and Big ship barrel roll fashion)

Edited by Ashley

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Big ship was never erratad, it never had a ruling till Dash. The phantom thing was because of the amount of QQing on the board. Not really a nerf either, but that's what the boards have decided to call it... When it really isn't and was just a change of play style. Bloody buggers are amazing once you get the hang of them.

EDIT: I hope to god there is never a 2.0 because all that will happen is killing of the community, just because the vocal minority here thinks it will help, just look at the vast complaining and the redaction of the damage deck ruling with the new core set.

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

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@Ken at Sunrise: I get not wanting to proxy cards even in casual play but if you or anyone else has consciously made that decision then you (or they) waive any rights to complain about what you have to purchase to get the cards you refuse to purchase. You can complain all you want but you've already invalidated anything you have to say on the topic.

 

You're saying by having proxys I no longer care or I should simply keep my mouth shut?

 

I don't think you understand my concerns.  But that's okay too.

 

[Edit] P.S. maybe because I do own so much and still need to proxy I am concerned.  Sorry you feel simply because I have proxies my opinions are invalid.

You said you hate using proxy cards. I understand that. I don't have a problem with it. I don't do it often, but from time to time, mostly when something new comes out, I will print off a full squad sheet from one of the builders and use that for a game. I find it's helpful to figure out how good something is or how you like it before purchasing multiple copies.

But again, I understand people not wanting to use proxys.

However, if you are one of those people that are averse to doing so I believe you waive your rights to come into the forum and complain about how FFG does things. If you take a look at things objectively FFG has been extremely fair with how they distribute upgrades. They are a business and need to make a profit on this game, especially when you consider how much they need to pay for licensing. C3PO crew distriibution has probably been the biggest complaint of any upgrade and now copies are coming out with the winter tournament kit. There are a few others that have rankled players but nothing that has been an egregious money grab. You've been around this game long enough to know that you will generally get more copies of specific upgrades as new ships are released (AS, Predator, etc).

My problem is specifically with this notion of entitlement that people have about the ships or upgrades they want. If you want it, purchase it. If you don't want to purchase it, proxy it or go without. Refusing to proxy and then complaining about it is silly. The statement that all of these complaints make are all the same: "I want all this cool stuff and I want it all for free!!!".

I don't have a problem with you personally Ken. You've always been a decent guy around here. I just don't accept the complaints because when you get right down to the core issue its very black and white.

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I understand the OP's post, but I'm not really one to want X-wing 2.0.  I think it's the only way to really continue.  The worst part of it is if I want to do official events and need upgrades from a bunch of ships that I don't really want. 

 

I like the fact that they are doing incremental upgrades for ordnance to make it better.  It's a more balanced way to approach it.  There is less danger of one thing breaking it. 

 

I feel that if you are a casual player, you should look at it as simple economics.  You either proxy or pay the price.  Yes, it sucks that you have to buy a lot of ships you don't want.  You can always buy the singles later. 

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