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GreenLantern1138

T-65 Fix?

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In all seriousness, I do like the idea of a title giving X-Wings a discount on astromechs.  IA is great and all but I feel like losing that mod slot kinda sucks.  Especially since you have to throw away your potentially expensive astro.  Now if that bot was a bit cheaper?  Sure.

Edited by Darkcloak
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It would be cool to have several T-65 specific cards.

 

Possibilities:

Something to give them boost perhaps?

Something that makes 2 speed banks green?

Something that adds 1 speed turns.

Something that adds boost?

Something that compiles acquiring a Target lock and a Focus token into one action (Perhaps as a discard function).

Something that adds a shield or two?

 

Any of the above might take up a slot or be a title, add positive or negative costs as appropriate.

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It would be cool to have several T-65 specific cards.

 

Possibilities:

Something to give them boost perhaps?  GIMME BOOST! BOOST ON EVERY SHIP! And autothruster.

Something that makes 2 speed banks green?  And suddenly it has better dial, cheaper... poor E-wing.

Something that adds 1 speed turns. Aha, and then add R2 astro. Inquisitor, Fel, look at that, YOU SUCK BANTA HORNS! Basic 22 point DERPsson can do it betteeer!

Something that adds boost? Jesus.... again?

Something that compiles acquiring a Target lock and a Focus token into one action (Perhaps as a discard function). We already can have 3-action Wedges. Want a 4-action Wedge?

Something that adds a shield or two? Hey, B-wing? See that? I'm now officially better than you! in EEEVERYTHIING

 

Any of the above might take up a slot or be a title, add positive or negative costs as appropriate.

 

twdtFntFvek.jpg 

 

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S-Foil Control (Modification) X-Wing, B-wing only 0 points

Take a weapons disabled token and evade token to make all moves white.

Rogue Squadron (Title) T-65 X-Wing only.

S-Foil Control has a negative 1 point cost.

I open the floor for discussion.

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1 evade can be a huge difference, the difference of firing again and not, doing damage or not. and it gets more and more important the more times you roll that die.

and TLTs say you roll it a lot. 6 times you roll for 3\8 chance, what in average (not considering focus) gives you the 2,25 damage negated. Mathematically 65 is more durable.

Can't argue with numbers. Numbers are jousting in a sense.

 

Yup and the numbers say that the X is still less effective than the B at raw jousting, which kinda sucks because thats the only thing it can do.  It has no repositional movement, so it isnt really a viable arc dodger, it has very few actions to select from and it has very limited scope for upgrade, which limits its versatility in a tactical sense.  The B and Y on the other hand have huge scope.  The Z and TIE are all super efficient for jousting.  The X is not, its barely an efficient jouster, which means the B is still the first choice for jousting as well as for a bunch of other stuff.

 

 

If you consider that a ship can be a jack of all trades and overshadow dedicated niche ships in the process is good for game design you know nothing of game design then.

 

IA is worth a shitton of points. it's BETTER than a shield. and plus to that you get to use the astromech itself, something you want to ignore.

I care little for the elaborate tries of sounding smart you perform. 

Facts and opinions on the facts is the only thing that matters here.

 

I'm saying it again, hopefully you'll be able to read the post this far this time.

65 is a ship that can do anything, but cannot and SHOULD NOT be super-effective in any of them.

Either a ship does something really good and sucks in other situations, in other words is a hard counter to some lists but is a hard counter to others

Or a ship is medicore in most situations, but has no "autolose" situations.

it must never outjoust dedicated jousters, outdodge dedicated dodgers. 

 

Please enlighten all of us on this thread how the X overshadows either the B or Y.   Tell us what ELSE the T-65 can capably do at the moment other than joust, compared to the Y and B.  Because if it as you claim, a jack of all trades, what other jobs it can do well enough to justify that title.

 

 

in the lore forward speed and tailing the enemy is the essential part of the dogfight. anyone trying to pull a K-turn in the middle of the fight gets his arse blown to bits.

Doesn't happen here. attack vectors also mean nothing here.

Shields don't regen on every ship, fire lanes are completely ignored.

What I'm saying here is that the game isn't the accurate representation of lore dogfights. at all.

Lorewise almost anything was a better fighter than a B. Mostly because B was a capital ship attack craft.

But we all know that SW isn't a place where classes of ships or fighters matter. 90% of rebels are assault fighters, Frigates are called Corvettes, Destroyers are called Frigates, Heavy cruisers and battleships are called destroyers etc

 

So whats your point?  The B should be an arc-dodger?  It SHOULD have more green dice than a TIE because there shouldnt be any rules?  That the TIE should be a heavily shielded and armored tank as the designers should ignore the canon which tells them what each fighter does? 

 

The B was - as you say - a capital ship hunter, but at the moment it out jousts the X wing and can do a lot of other stuff that the X Wing cant.  Most of that it should do - as it could carry cannons, torps etc, but it shouldn't be a better fighter than the X.  Rather than nerf the B, the X needs to be made into what it should represent from the canon.  The mainline fighter of the rebel squadrons. 

 

Balance is a situation when ships have their niches, so that their different costs and stats make them all viable.

Outbuff one thing and others don't see table time. 

Trying to put generic and non-generic 65's onto top tournament level isn't the case.

it isn't a knave squadron pilot, defender or some other scyk that suck so hard that taking them in most cases spelled utter doom of the list.

X was below the medium, now it's above the medium.

Buffing it further? Where to? To the point of auto-include? Buff it so hard it can outjoust a howl-swarm? Chew through YYYY faster than they can? Out-K-turn CrabBots?

There is nowhere left to buff without breaking the balance further.

It's good as it is. 

 

Time to stop whining about 65 not being a champion-list ship and look at the poor bastards that NEVER SAW ANY TABLE TIME at all.

There are such ships.

X is no longer one of them.

Trying to see the X Wing on the tables again at OP events was EXACTLY the point of trying to fix it.  The lack of X Wings, Defenders, TIE advanced etc was the very reason for trying to make them more viable.  Much as I agree that there are other ships that need love.  The X has needed love since wave 1 and it hasn't yet (according to the most reliable analysis model we have on the forums - mathwing) achieved a point where it can reasonably compete with what is the most effective fighter for the rebels - the B wing, to the point where there is a really good reason to take an X instead of a B.  As has been said - dropping the points of the T-65 by 1 somehow might be the most mathematically reliable way to do it.  It would raise jousting efficiency high enough that it would compete well with the B as a jouster, but still wouldnt be able to do anything else that the B and Y can do now. 

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Agreed, the X-Wing serves one purpose, get the enemy in front of you and blast it, which it does pretty well. It just needs a little more points efficiency. I firmly believe that -1pt to the Astromech title would do that. It allows more flexible 4 ship lists, and gives a little space and initiative bid to 3 Ace lists.

 

Luke + R5P9 + Predator + IA is in my list as well now, along with Wedge + BB8 + PTL + IA, and Wes Janson + R3A2 + VI + IA. Wes may not be a stresshog but the ability to stress, and remove tokens is amazing for interrupting actions. Lowering the cost of Astromechs wouldn't help my list a lot, but it would really help any 4 X build.

If you like stresswes, have you tried Hobbie with stressbot? TL, stress target, shoot, spend TL to clear stress. As with Wes throw a set of stresspedoes in there too for a double stress dump. It will cripple an action dependent ace or phantom for a couple of turns. I like StressWes for the token ability but he doesnt shed the stress as easily. Hes also a bit more expensive, though the PS is nice to have.

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Zero point astromech that...does something.

If genius can set up bombs that potentially catch the bomber, maybe a zero astro can...make a 3 straight green, I guess. I dunno, maybe it just takes up space until IA kicks it into the void.

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Tl;dr

I'd like to see X-wings get a title that reads something like: Enemy ships in arc at range 2-3 cannot perform boost or barrel roll actions.

It would probably have to cost something, no idea how much.

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I would like to second Phocion's question,"if the x-wing is the jack of all trades, what other roles does/can it fill in the game besides jouster?"

This is why I propse things that add other actions to its choices. It would be an interesting arcdodger if you let it take upgrades that do that. Maybe upgrades that make its 1 torpedo slot more of a big deal. Or if you simply make it more jousting efficient it can be a awesome jouster which is fine. Make all of these upgrades mutually exclusive of course.

Edited by Ayleron

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Yup and the numbers say that the X is still less effective than the B at raw jousting, which kinda sucks because thats the only thing it can do.  It has no repositional movement, so it isnt really a viable arc dodger, it has very few actions to select from and it has very limited scope for upgrade, which limits its versatility in a tactical sense.  The B and Y on the other hand have huge scope.  The Z and TIE are all super efficient for jousting.  The X is not, its barely an efficient jouster, which means the B is still the first choice for jousting as well as for a bunch of other stuff.

 

 

Please enlighten all of us on this thread how the X overshadows either the B or Y.   Tell us what ELSE the T-65 can capably do at the moment other than joust, compared to the Y and B.  Because if it as you claim, a jack of all trades, what other jobs it can do well enough to justify that title.

 

 

So whats your point?  The B should be an arc-dodger?  It SHOULD have more green dice than a TIE because there shouldnt be any rules?  That the TIE should be a heavily shielded and armored tank as the designers should ignore the canon which tells them what each fighter does? 

 

The B was - as you say - a capital ship hunter, but at the moment it out jousts the X wing and can do a lot of other stuff that the X Wing cant.  Most of that it should do - as it could carry cannons, torps etc, but it shouldn't be a better fighter than the X.  Rather than nerf the B, the X needs to be made into what it should represent from the canon.  The mainline fighter of the rebel squadrons. 

 

 

Trying to see the X Wing on the tables again at OP events was EXACTLY the point of trying to fix it.  The lack of X Wings, Defenders, TIE advanced etc was the very reason for trying to make them more viable.  Much as I agree that there are other ships that need love.  The X has needed love since wave 1 and it hasn't yet (according to the most reliable analysis model we have on the forums - mathwing) achieved a point where it can reasonably compete with what is the most effective fighter for the rebels - the B wing, to the point where there is a really good reason to take an X instead of a B.  As has been said - dropping the points of the T-65 by 1 somehow might be the most mathematically reliable way to do it.  It would raise jousting efficiency high enough that it would compete well with the B as a jouster, but still wouldnt be able to do anything else that the B and Y can do now. 

 

 

Oh yeah, enlighten us what can B or Z do outside jousting? Arcdodges? Or maybe it's a flying turret on a brick?

I won't wait too long and answer myself. Nothing.

Jousters joust and can do nothing else. Like X B and Z can't do ANYTHING else. Nor should they. Different flavours with different features.

B and Z have their own problems.

Z has 2 attack dice and can't reliably push damage through 

B has 1 evade token, dies to  TLTs in moments and is too goddamn slow to even have a chance against some PWT. it can't even try to block some lane. It's K-turn range is too small to gain some distance and deny a squint his tailing. X can do it. yeah, no focus this time, but it's something. B can't shake it at all.

Specific pilot configurations, like Farlander on target or Batwedge can react to enemy movement but aren't arcdodgers themselves, they get their shot almost every time, but don't dodge arcs.

 

X does not and should not overshadow them. it has none of their problems. so why should it get some bonus? They pay for their efficiency with drawbacks X lacks.

While you densely insist it should have plain jousting value over everything out there. 

Just because. Fanboys.

 

 

My point is "Don't try to bring lore and ship roles there into the game. game isn't exacly following it, and it shall not"

Want to see ships filling their roles to the end? Play Armada. (and even there Tie-Adv and  A-wings are better at cap ship attacking than Y wings, Jesus!)

because if you want it that way there will be nothing except for X-wings and A-wings here. Why bring assault craft to a dogfight?

Game design trumps everything. 

 

 

trying to see them on the tables?

Tournament level? Seen many jousters around the world championship? 

Not that many? See the problem?

Nope?

It's not T-65 problem, it's overall downfall of jousters.

the last "jousters" that made the cut at worlds are Whisper (post-nerf she's a jouster,yeah), brobots with their measly 6 PS and Howl-obsidian swarm.

I didn't put "filler" ships like Pheaver's Z or single Blockers that don't joust at all in the list.

 

HOW much do you need to overpower a generic jouster so that his raw power can break the statistics?

It should break Brobots faces? Outshoot Howlswarm? (I dare remind you that Howlswarm is one of the most hard lists to fly, and it sometimes wins not by jousting, but instead by suddenly blocking something precicely)

 

 

MajorJuggler did a heap of work, and there's a neat thing to see

 
Named vs Generic usage by points
                                2013      2014      2015
Named Pilots           33.31%    53.19%    53.75%
Generic Pilots         66.69%    46.81%    46.25%
"Vanilla" generics*  66.69%    46.81%    12.72%
 
* generics without wave 7 or Palpatine Crew

see the trend? it's not the 65 problem.

 

 

See the trend yet?

And now I dare you say it's all because Xwing isn't a powerhouse. 

Yep, surely, maxing it's efficiency WILL UNDO IT ALL and fill the top lists with jousters, pushing aces out of the throne room.

 

 

 

Brobots, Dodge-Aces, TLTs - everything of that break BBBB list to pieces much more reliably than a XXXX list, full generic or part-generic.

Although the XX-YY sounds more reasonable to my mind. Pure joust lists are going extinct. and FFG is happy with that. They deliberately started the PS race and unleashed old Whisper upon the world.

 

General problem isn't solved by overpowering something.

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Yup and the numbers say that the X is still less effective than the B at raw jousting, which kinda sucks because thats the only thing it can do.  It has no repositional movement, so it isnt really a viable arc dodger, it has very few actions to select from and it has very limited scope for upgrade, which limits its versatility in a tactical sense.  The B and Y on the other hand have huge scope.  The Z and TIE are all super efficient for jousting.  The X is not, its barely an efficient jouster, which means the B is still the first choice for jousting as well as for a bunch of other stuff.

 

 

Please enlighten all of us on this thread how the X overshadows either the B or Y.   Tell us what ELSE the T-65 can capably do at the moment other than joust, compared to the Y and B.  Because if it as you claim, a jack of all trades, what other jobs it can do well enough to justify that title.

 

 

So whats your point?  The B should be an arc-dodger?  It SHOULD have more green dice than a TIE because there shouldnt be any rules?  That the TIE should be a heavily shielded and armored tank as the designers should ignore the canon which tells them what each fighter does? 

 

The B was - as you say - a capital ship hunter, but at the moment it out jousts the X wing and can do a lot of other stuff that the X Wing cant.  Most of that it should do - as it could carry cannons, torps etc, but it shouldn't be a better fighter than the X.  Rather than nerf the B, the X needs to be made into what it should represent from the canon.  The mainline fighter of the rebel squadrons. 

 

 

Trying to see the X Wing on the tables again at OP events was EXACTLY the point of trying to fix it.  The lack of X Wings, Defenders, TIE advanced etc was the very reason for trying to make them more viable.  Much as I agree that there are other ships that need love.  The X has needed love since wave 1 and it hasn't yet (according to the most reliable analysis model we have on the forums - mathwing) achieved a point where it can reasonably compete with what is the most effective fighter for the rebels - the B wing, to the point where there is a really good reason to take an X instead of a B.  As has been said - dropping the points of the T-65 by 1 somehow might be the most mathematically reliable way to do it.  It would raise jousting efficiency high enough that it would compete well with the B as a jouster, but still wouldnt be able to do anything else that the B and Y can do now.

 

Oh yeah, enlighten us what can B or Z do outside jousting? Arcdodges? Or maybe it's a flying turret on a brick?

I won't wait too long and answer myself. Nothing.

Jousters joust and can do nothing else. Like X B and Z can't do ANYTHING else. Nor should they. Different flavours with different features.

B and Z have their own problems.

Z has 2 attack dice and can't reliably push damage through 

B has 1 evade token, dies to  TLTs in moments and is too goddamn slow to even have a chance against some PWT. it can't even try to block some lane. It's K-turn range is too small to gain some distance and deny a squint his tailing. X can do it. yeah, no focus this time, but it's something. B can't shake it at all.

Specific pilot configurations, like Farlander on target or Batwedge can react to enemy movement but aren't arcdodgers themselves, they get their shot almost every time, but don't dodge arcs.

 

X does not and should not overshadow them. it has none of their problems. so why should it get some bonus? They pay for their efficiency with drawbacks X lacks.

While you densely insist it should have plain jousting value over everything out there. 

Just because. Fanboys.

 

 

My point is "Don't try to bring lore and ship roles there into the game. game isn't exacly following it, and it shall not"

Want to see ships filling their roles to the end? Play Armada. (and even there Tie-Adv and  A-wings are better at cap ship attacking than Y wings, Jesus!)

because if you want it that way there will be nothing except for X-wings and A-wings here. Why bring assault craft to a dogfight?

Game design trumps everything. 

 

 

trying to see them on the tables?

Tournament level? Seen many jousters around the world championship? 

Not that many? See the problem?

Nope?

It's not T-65 problem, it's overall downfall of jousters.

the last "jousters" that made the cut at worlds are Whisper (post-nerf she's a jouster,yeah), brobots with their measly 6 PS and Howl-obsidian swarm.

I didn't put "filler" ships like Pheaver's Z or single Blockers that don't joust at all in the list.

 

HOW much do you need to overpower a generic jouster so that his raw power can break the statistics?

It should break Brobots faces? Outshoot Howlswarm? (I dare remind you that Howlswarm is one of the most hard lists to fly, and it sometimes wins not by jousting, but instead by suddenly blocking something precicely)

 

 

MajorJuggler did a heap of work, and there's a neat thing to see

 

Named vs Generic usage by points

                                2013      2014      2015

Named Pilots           33.31%    53.19%    53.75%

Generic Pilots         66.69%    46.81%    46.25%

"Vanilla" generics*  66.69%    46.81%    12.72%

 

* generics without wave 7 or Palpatine Crew

see the trend? it's not the 65 problem.

 

See the trend yet?

And now I dare you say it's all because Xwing isn't a powerhouse. 

Yep, surely, maxing it's efficiency WILL UNDO IT ALL and fill the top lists with jousters, pushing aces out of the throne room.

 

 

 

Brobots, Dodge-Aces, TLTs - everything of that break BBBB list to pieces much more reliably than a XXXX list, full generic or part-generic.

Although the XX-YY sounds more reasonable to my mind. Pure joust lists are going extinct. and FFG is happy with that. They deliberately started the PS race and unleashed old Whisper upon the world.

 

General problem isn't solved by overpowering something.

So what would be a good aolution in your eyes? Is there one?

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Yup and the numbers say that the X is still less effective than the B at raw jousting, which kinda sucks because thats the only thing it can do.  It has no repositional movement, so it isnt really a viable arc dodger, it has very few actions to select from and it has very limited scope for upgrade, which limits its versatility in a tactical sense.  The B and Y on the other hand have huge scope.  The Z and TIE are all super efficient for jousting.  The X is not, its barely an efficient jouster, which means the B is still the first choice for jousting as well as for a bunch of other stuff.

 

 

Please enlighten all of us on this thread how the X overshadows either the B or Y.   Tell us what ELSE the T-65 can capably do at the moment other than joust, compared to the Y and B.  Because if it as you claim, a jack of all trades, what other jobs it can do well enough to justify that title.

 

 

So whats your point?  The B should be an arc-dodger?  It SHOULD have more green dice than a TIE because there shouldnt be any rules?  That the TIE should be a heavily shielded and armored tank as the designers should ignore the canon which tells them what each fighter does? 

 

The B was - as you say - a capital ship hunter, but at the moment it out jousts the X wing and can do a lot of other stuff that the X Wing cant.  Most of that it should do - as it could carry cannons, torps etc, but it shouldn't be a better fighter than the X.  Rather than nerf the B, the X needs to be made into what it should represent from the canon.  The mainline fighter of the rebel squadrons. 

 

 

Trying to see the X Wing on the tables again at OP events was EXACTLY the point of trying to fix it.  The lack of X Wings, Defenders, TIE advanced etc was the very reason for trying to make them more viable.  Much as I agree that there are other ships that need love.  The X has needed love since wave 1 and it hasn't yet (according to the most reliable analysis model we have on the forums - mathwing) achieved a point where it can reasonably compete with what is the most effective fighter for the rebels - the B wing, to the point where there is a really good reason to take an X instead of a B.  As has been said - dropping the points of the T-65 by 1 somehow might be the most mathematically reliable way to do it.  It would raise jousting efficiency high enough that it would compete well with the B as a jouster, but still wouldnt be able to do anything else that the B and Y can do now.

 

Oh yeah, enlighten us what can B or Z do outside jousting? Arcdodges? Or maybe it's a flying turret on a brick?

I won't wait too long and answer myself. Nothing.

Jousters joust and can do nothing else. Like X B and Z can't do ANYTHING else. Nor should they. Different flavours with different features.

B and Z have their own problems.

Z has 2 attack dice and can't reliably push damage through 

B has 1 evade token, dies to  TLTs in moments and is too goddamn slow to even have a chance against some PWT. it can't even try to block some lane. It's K-turn range is too small to gain some distance and deny a squint his tailing. X can do it. yeah, no focus this time, but it's something. B can't shake it at all.

Specific pilot configurations, like Farlander on target or Batwedge can react to enemy movement but aren't arcdodgers themselves, they get their shot almost every time, but don't dodge arcs.

 

X does not and should not overshadow them. it has none of their problems. so why should it get some bonus? They pay for their efficiency with drawbacks X lacks.

While you densely insist it should have plain jousting value over everything out there. 

Just because. Fanboys.

 

 

My point is "Don't try to bring lore and ship roles there into the game. game isn't exacly following it, and it shall not"

Want to see ships filling their roles to the end? Play Armada. (and even there Tie-Adv and  A-wings are better at cap ship attacking than Y wings, Jesus!)

because if you want it that way there will be nothing except for X-wings and A-wings here. Why bring assault craft to a dogfight?

Game design trumps everything. 

 

 

trying to see them on the tables?

Tournament level? Seen many jousters around the world championship? 

Not that many? See the problem?

Nope?

It's not T-65 problem, it's overall downfall of jousters.

the last "jousters" that made the cut at worlds are Whisper (post-nerf she's a jouster,yeah), brobots with their measly 6 PS and Howl-obsidian swarm.

I didn't put "filler" ships like Pheaver's Z or single Blockers that don't joust at all in the list.

 

HOW much do you need to overpower a generic jouster so that his raw power can break the statistics?

It should break Brobots faces? Outshoot Howlswarm? (I dare remind you that Howlswarm is one of the most hard lists to fly, and it sometimes wins not by jousting, but instead by suddenly blocking something precicely)

 

 

MajorJuggler did a heap of work, and there's a neat thing to see

 

Named vs Generic usage by points

                                2013      2014      2015

Named Pilots           33.31%    53.19%    53.75%

Generic Pilots         66.69%    46.81%    46.25%

"Vanilla" generics*  66.69%    46.81%    12.72%

 

* generics without wave 7 or Palpatine Crew

see the trend? it's not the 65 problem.

 

See the trend yet?

And now I dare you say it's all because Xwing isn't a powerhouse. 

Yep, surely, maxing it's efficiency WILL UNDO IT ALL and fill the top lists with jousters, pushing aces out of the throne room.

 

 

 

Brobots, Dodge-Aces, TLTs - everything of that break BBBB list to pieces much more reliably than a XXXX list, full generic or part-generic.

Although the XX-YY sounds more reasonable to my mind. Pure joust lists are going extinct. and FFG is happy with that. They deliberately started the PS race and unleashed old Whisper upon the world.

 

General problem isn't solved by overpowering something.

So what would be a good aolution in your eyes? Is there one?

 

Bump points to 120

suddenly a stack of tokens isn't as impressive and it's more difficult to outdodge the gunline.

 

TLTs still have epic jousting values for turrets, but maybe they will see the nerf bat like whisper did before that.

Or the 3-point generic joust gunline will do the trick. Needs field testing.

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If ffg does give the Xwing more attention through titles, modes, and pilots, then I want it to be rogue one the new movie coming out this year as the theme. I would rather it be in the empire time period then the new order.

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