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GreenLantern1138

T-65 Fix?

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B-s suffer less because of K-turning, due to sensors, but their HP value means nothing to TLTs. Field-tested scum YYYY with all four Unhinged and YYYY with two Agros

completely OBLITERATE the BBBB, taking 1-2 casualties in the process. B's can't concentrate their firepower and get down to 1-2 hp in a salvo. Agro-YYYY managed to take down 1 per turn and in the process got no casualties what'sover.

FCS B's don't work as good as paper suggests. it's pretty hard to reliably track same Y with 2+ B's for more than a couple of turns. and B's tend to die themselves freakishly fast.

 

While XXXX of my own favourite flavor

lost 4-6 to the same list. because suddenly 2 evades do matter. and lower cost allows you to put a point into the PS, that really helps against BBBB, BBBBZ, Howl-swarm, Obsidian-swarm and isn't that one-sided as Howl-black-on-crack swarm that literally eats the named BBBB alive with no exceptions.

and it really were close fights.

 

More than that, X is currently the best spammable ship for epic. mostly for the 2 evades and extraordinary 3+2 +IA survivability.

 

If X is a better jouster than B, Tie, Z and Y who the hell will pick those, with their special problems?

If B doesn't joust, B never leaves the shelves. That's the point.

OK, first: 8 HP is 8 HP regardless. Yes, 4 TLTs COULD possibly take a B wing off the board IF they all roll successfully, assuming no additional defense modifiers and ASSUMING that all 8 shots were in range and arc. There are a number of very simple ways for the B Wing player to prevent this. However the B wing will also be PS2 at least, so will fire simultaneously with the PS2 Ys (you cant spam PS4 with TLTs). Also if all 8 shots from 4 TLTs have to hit 1 B to kill it outright, then the 12-16 red dice the B Wings can generate, will also be doing damage. The game is not a one sided argument taking place in a vacuum. Your enemy gets a vote. I have flown against TLT lists with 4Bs. Yes TLTs are a pain in the ass, because they reliably push damage through against all targets. The damage is consistent, but also avoids the peaks that can be achieved with more red dice – something the B wing has. A B can potentially do 4 damage to a TLT Y but can at most receive 2 back from the same ship. 4 TLTs can do 8 damage, but could receive 12-16 back, range dependent.

B Wings can’t concentrate fire? LOLwhut? Horse Puckey! Bs can concentrate fire at least as well as Xs and usually better because of BR/FCS. They can spread or tighten their formation and are not as reliant upon a single action with the ability to maintain TLs. Having flown a 4B wing list for years, I can tell you that much. I only stopped recently because it was beginning to annoy local players (one of them started to call me ‘B Hole’ – jokingly), but also because it got boring and felt like too much of an advantage. 4 FCS Bs works very well, it is nasty to face; I used to call it my ‘proctoscope’ list, as you pretty much use it in the same way :P.

If 4 TLTs can defeat 8 HP behind 1 green dice, then the same 8 shots won’t have a much harder time against 5-6 HP behind 2. Yeah occasionally the unreliable green octahedrons of disappointment might work. But TLTs can also deal very capably with 3 green dice interceptors, how are X Wings better than that?

Don’t use the epic strawman in this. The game is balanced around 100 points, not epic. I usually play larger games than 100 (usually at least 150) and I have found the Defender and Bomber do pretty well in Epic and bigger games too (I love my 4 Defenders and 6 Bombers) – are you saying that the defender and bomber doesn’t need the new fix? You can’t have it both ways. If it’s ok for the Imps to have their underperforming ships fixed, then it’s ok for all factions. OK, the X was in a better place (supposedly) than the defender. However given the reception IA has had so far, I remain to be convinced it is going to make the X as effective as it needs to be – to be seen in competitive play, which is why it is being improved. We will have to wait and see however.

Point is that X doesnt do anything except joust. Your argument is a strawman, Bs, Zs, TIEs and Ys dont really have that many problems at the moment (more pilots would be nice though :P). They are all pretty good at what they do and all pretty efficient with the options you can give them, or naked (Z and TIE). If the X was a better jouster B wing wouldnt suffer because it brings a lot of other stuff to the table, such as being tougher, cannon, sensors, BR better ordnance options etc. I'd bring them over an X dependent on the situation or whatever I felt like flying. You arent championing anything except your own fear of change here.

 

ah, I just love textwalls.

 

 

6 hp and 8 hp? Real difference, I see. [insert doge wow such difference image here]

simultaneous fire rule isn't such a problem, mostly thanks to the fact that B-wings can't go 4-block fast enough.

If you spread, you lose fire concentration and gen minced.

 

If you fly tightly you'll be kited. B-wings aren't the type of unpredictable dial ships. 4 forward red can surprise a foe, but leaves you at 50% red dice efficiency. Adv sensors help, yep, but unless you go above the theoretical performance, you're not one-shotting the Y

While they can, and as practice tells us, they do.

 

B's have different dial to X. can't argue with that, can you? 

BBBB list is boring. Almost to the point of Boosting PWTs, old Whisper or YYYY

 

in case of 1 dice your chances of not getting that damage are completely non-existant. B-s are cool in a way because their Adv sensor and close-quarters 1-turn and 2-k are great and R3 bonus on them is much more tasty than the same +dice on a 2-3 ship. TLT denies that. 

 

And you're telling me about strawmen? After making a textwall about B-wings and trying to justify 65 with that?

Sheesh, the nerve.

 

Bombers are a dead design, because from the first wave ordnance was an overpriced underpowered bantacrap, and defenders are so overcosted, that even E-wing looks nice compared to them.

X has seen play in early waves, is epic in epic and now it got a nice buff for generics and pseudo-adv sensor BB-8.

 

B-s Ties and Zs are jousters to the core. Buff X too much and they never see any use at all. if that is unclear to you, your problem.

X is already not far apart from B in terms of toughness, mind you. No matter how hard X-fans whine, IA is epicly powerful. 

If X was an OP jouster in the first place, TIE swarm wouldn't exist, BBBB would not hit the tables at all and Zs wouldn't even be needed.

 

summing it up: X wing is fixed enough, overpowering it is a complete failure from game design perspective. 

The only people who wish this to happen are fanboys. Their wet dreams should stay dreams. And game must see balance and playability first. Wet dreams second.

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You calling anyone a fanboy is epic hypocrisy given the whining you have done on REBELZ IZ OP PLZ NERF threads

2 HP can be huge difference. The difference between firing again and not, doing more damage and not.

If you consider a few % increase in jousting efficiency overpowered then you arent understanding the issue. IA is not epically powerful or it wouldnt have been considered as a fix for the X wing. And noone is arguing for the X to have stats of 11. Stop exaggerating. IA is probably worth about 1-2 points on the X given its baseline stats. The fact you pay at least that to take it, scales the effectiveness down. Given the lack of other options IA does not help the X achieve the balance it needs under the mathwing arguments. A -1 point reduction might put it just where it needs to be. Wow! Game breaking I know!!!

Also go research the meaning of a strawman argument before shouting J'accuse. Maybe if you knew be definiton you might stop using them yourself.

I am arguing in favor of a further nudge to the T-65 (in a T-65 fix thread, no less), have been doing so for years. I am NOT arguing that it needs to be the best ship in the game, just that it needs to be worth its points, which it does not appear to be yet given the analysis that has been doneby several smarter people than I on the forum. The X should be a better jouster than the B, because that is all it can do and also because it fits its role. The premier fighter of the Rebels. You can shout gameplay>fluff all you want but if the B wing had ended up with more green dice than the TIE you and everyone else would have complained. The X was a better fighter than the B as its main role was to kill more TIEs than the TIEs killed of it. The B was not and should not be the first choice for Rebel builds. I think had they balanced the X wing better a generic joust between TIEs and T-65s should have been a wash. As it stands TIE swarms were the dominant build for the majority of the games early lifespan. X Wings have been underperforming since wave 1. They still underperform mahematically, but to a much smaller margin. Could we leave it here? Yes, but couldnt we make the same argument about any ship? The Defender didnt HAVE to have a fix, but fanboys (like you) complained till they got one. So you cant point the finger at anyone else for wanting a ship they like to be better - especially if theres hard analysis backing it up.

Balance is the definition of something worth equal to the points it costs. If the X is not worth its points compared to the other ships in the game, then balance demands we make it better, yes?

Edited by phocion
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In the X-wing vs TIE Fighter PC game, when flying an X-wing you could transfer all your shields to forward, and fly straight threw TIE Fighters, exploding them, while only taking a little bit of damage to your hull.

You had to reduce power to lasers to charge your shields up.

Though it is hilarious, I'm kind of glad this mechanic didn't make it in to the tabletop game.

Much as I love the X Wing and TIE Figher series I have to agree. The games were far more cinematic than they probably had a right to be. I mean if the Rebel Squadrons had killed TIEs at the rate you had to in order to pass each mission, then the rebellion had probably succeeded in depopulating large parts of the empire by the time they won. The fights were incredibly lopsided numbers wise. The highest scoring aces in WW2 had no more than a few hundred kills, Rebels must have had multiple pilots with those kill scores in each squadron :)

Edited by phocion
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You calling anyone a fanboy is epic hypocrisy given the whining you have done on REBELZ IZ OP PLZ NERF threads

2 HP can be huge difference. The difference between firing again and not, doing more damage and not.

If you consider a few % increase in jousting efficiency overpowered then you arent understanding the issue. IA is not epically powerful or it wouldnt have been considered as a fix for the X wing. And noone is arguing for the X to have stats of 11. Stop exaggerating. IA is probably worth about 1-2 points on the X given its baseline stats. The fact you pay at least that to take it, scales the effectiveness down. Given the lack of other options IA does not help the X achieve the balance it needs under the mathwing arguments. A -1 point reduction might put it just where it needs to be. Wow! Game breaking I know!!!

Also go research the meaning of a strawman argument before shouting J'accuse. Maybe if you knew be definiton you might stop using them yourself.

I am arguing in favor of a further nudge to the T-65 (in a T-65 fix thread, no less), have been doing so for years. I am NOT arguing that it needs to be the best ship in the game, just that it needs to be worth its points, which it does not appear to be yet given the analysis that has been doneby several smarter people than I on the forum. The X should be a better jouster than the B, because that is all it can do and also because it fits its role. The premier fighter of the Rebels. You can shout gameplay>fluff all you want but if the B wing had ended up with more green dice than the TIE you and everyone else would have complained. The X was a better fighter than the B as its main role was to kill more TIEs than the TIEs killed of it. The B was not and should not be the first choice for Rebel builds. I think had they balanced the X wing better a generic joust between TIEs and T-65s should have been a wash. As it stands TIE swarms were the dominant build for the majority of the games early lifespan. X Wings have been underperforming since wave 1. They still underperform mahematically, but to a much smaller margin. Could we leave it here? Yes, but couldnt we make the same argument about any ship? The Defender didnt HAVE to have a fix, but fanboys (like you) complained till they got one. So you cant point the finger at anyone else for wanting a ship they like to be better - especially if theres hard analysis backing it up.

Balance is the definition of something worth equal to the points it costs. If the X is not worth its points compared to the other ships in the game, then balance demands we make it better, yes?

If not being a fanboy of anything is fanboyism you're messing up the term itself.

 

1 evade can be a huge difference, the difference of firing again and not, doing damage or not. and it gets more and more important the more times you roll that die.

and TLTs say you roll it a lot. 6 times you roll for 3\8 chance, what in average (not considering focus) gives you the 2,25 damage negated. Mathematically 65 is more durable.

Can't argue with numbers. Numbers are jousting in a sense.

 

 

If you consider that a ship can be a jack of all trades and overshadow dedicated niche ships in the process is good for game design you know nothing of game design then.

 

IA is worth a shitton of points. it's BETTER than a shield. and plus to that you get to use the astromech itself, something you want to ignore.

I care little for the elaborate tries of sounding smart you perform. 

Facts and opinions on the facts is the only thing that matters here.

 

I'm saying it again, hopefully you'll be able to read the post this far this time.

65 is a ship that can do anything, but cannot and SHOULD NOT be super-effective in any of them.

Either a ship does something really good and sucks in other situations, in other words is a hard counter to some lists but is a hard counter to others

Or a ship is medicore in most situations, but has no "autolose" situations.

it must never outjoust dedicated jousters, outdodge dedicated dodgers. 

 

in the lore forward speed and tailing the enemy is the essential part of the dogfight. anyone trying to pull a K-turn in the middle of the fight gets his arse blown to bits.

Doesn't happen here. attack vectors also mean nothing here.

Shields don't regen on every ship, fire lanes are completely ignored.

What I'm saying here is that the game isn't the accurate representation of lore dogfights. at all.

Lorewise almost anything was a better fighter than a B. Mostly because B was a capital ship attack craft.

But we all know that SW isn't a place where classes of ships or fighters matter. 90% of rebels are assault fighters, Frigates are called Corvettes, Destroyers are called Frigates, Heavy cruisers and battleships are called destroyers etc

 

Balance is a situation when ships have their niches, so that their different costs and stats make them all viable.

Outbuff one thing and others don't see table time. 

Trying to put generic and non-generic 65's onto top tournament level isn't the case.

it isn't a knave squadron pilot, defender or some other scyk that suck so hard that taking them in most cases spelled utter doom of the list.

X was below the medium, now it's above the medium.

Buffing it further? Where to? To the point of auto-include? Buff it so hard it can outjoust a howl-swarm? Chew through YYYY faster than they can? Out-K-turn CrabBots?

There is nowhere left to buff without breaking the balance further.

It's good as it is. 

 

Time to stop whining about 65 not being a champion-list ship and look at the poor bastards that NEVER SAW ANY TABLE TIME at all.

There are such ships.

X is no longer one of them.

 

p.s. never even bought any empire ships. Funny to hear myself being inducted into "Tie-D fanboys"

Ah, right, the FIRESPRAY. But the poor fellow deserves his own thread. 

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For the last 2 years I have been saying the same thing, and have given suggestions for a fix. The dang community is stubborn though. No matter how many times I make a suggestion based on lore, they tell me it's canon or extended universe (when it's mostly not). This is my latest attempt to throw my ideas in the pile here

The reason I did not include a T-70 Title Card to the idea list is because the T-65 named Pilots either died, or would be too old by the time the T-70 came out. I would imagine in old age they stopped flying.

For the T-65AC4 Title Card, I did not put the Tallon Roll in because of the rules. You have to have a maneuver dial, that matches the model. It would also require the purchase of a T-70 Expansion, or the new Core.

Perhaps one thing I could of added was "Astromech to Computer" Modification card. That way the T-70 could get the same effect as the T-65D-A1 Title Card

I did a title for the X-Wing along the lines of your T-65AC4:

Corran Horn X-Wing:

x_wing_miniatures_game___corran_in_x_win

 

And a different approach for an X-Wing fix (helps T-60 without helping T-70):

x_wing_miniatures_game___custom_upgrade_

 

I just now saw this. I am glad to see someone take my idea, and try something with it.

I see this forum is against the Boost because it makes it a cheaper T-70 (is my understanding). I find it to be complete BS.  I would like to see the T-65's scale up to a T-70. The pilot cards for jousting, are WAAAY better on the T-65 than the T-70. Whatever.

So the only thing I can see to do is maybe change it so it's Barrel Roll instead of Boost? Comes with Barrel Roll and Reduces Torpedo or Missile Cost by 2. (if the community can't agree)

The reason I am thinking that is because in my original idea post, I let the T-65B title card be the one with the HP increase, plus cost reduction of the X-Wing by 1. I am not the best at this so I will let the community figure it out.

If worse comes to worse, the T-65D-A1 model title card, and the Astromech to Computer Conversion Modification card hasn't been touched. That still has potential if the community can't find a reasonable solution and or idea.

 

Edited by RPLev

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For the last 2 years I have been saying the same thing, and have given suggestions for a fix. The dang community is stubborn though. No matter how many times I make a suggestion based on lore, they tell me it's canon or extended universe (when it's mostly not). This is my latest attempt to throw my ideas in the pile here

The reason I did not include a T-70 Title Card to the idea list is because the T-65 named Pilots either died, or would be too old by the time the T-70 came out. I would imagine in old age they stopped flying.

For the T-65AC4 Title Card, I did not put the Tallon Roll in because of the rules. You have to have a maneuver dial, that matches the model. It would also require the purchase of a T-70 Expansion, or the new Core.

Perhaps one thing I could of added was "Astromech to Computer" Modification card. That way the T-70 could get the same effect as the T-65D-A1 Title Card

I did a title for the X-Wing along the lines of your T-65AC4:

Corran Horn X-Wing:

x_wing_miniatures_game___corran_in_x_win

 

And a different approach for an X-Wing fix (helps T-60 without helping T-70):

x_wing_miniatures_game___custom_upgrade_

 

I just now saw this. I am glad to see someone take my idea, and try something with it.

I see this forum is against the Boost because it makes it a cheaper T-70 (is my understanding). I find it to be complete BS.  I would like to see the T-65's scale up to a T-70. The pilot cards for jousting, are WAAAY better on the T-65 than the T-70. Whatever.

So the only thing I can see to do is maybe change it so it's Barrel Roll instead of Boost? Comes with Barrel Roll and Reduces Torpedo or Missile Cost by 2. (if the community can't agree)

The reason I am thinking that is because in my original idea post, I let the T-65B title card be the one with the HP increase, plus cost reduction of the X-Wing by 1. I am not the best at this so I will let the community figure it out.

If worse comes to worse, the T-65D-A1 model title card, and the Astromech to Computer Conversion Modification card hasn't been touched. That still has potential if the community can't find a reasonable solution and or idea.

 

 

It doesn't need any of that. I've been flying 3 Aces with IA, it really makes them better. You get that extra turn or absorb that extra shot allowing the other 2 to go to town on someone.

 

The dial is a little stiff, that's fine, herd your enemy and push them towards corners, you'll be fine.

Boost and barrel roll are not needed, the T-65 does not need to mimic the T-70. If anything it just needs an Astromech cost reduction title to bring it in line as an efficient jouster.  

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Your Skub has no power here.

My Skub?  Buddy, if it weren't for Captain Vermillion Copper Aspergers Flakkensnoe you'd be drowning in heretic Skub.  Show some respect for your ever-lovin undead God-Emperor!

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YOU CAN'T STOP THE X-WING FIX!

 

People wanting to make it a T-70, or give it 4 attack dice! MADNESS!

 

SOON™ the X-Wing will be triumphant!

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And until the world championship ends up with both combatants flying X-wing they shall not stop.

 

Not even then their fanboyish desires will be sated.

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If you consider that a ship can be a jack of all trades and overshadow dedicated niche ships in the process is good for game design you know nothing of game design then.

Oh! Ok! We found your problem. The X-Wing is not a "jack of all trades". It's a Jouster. Full stop. It goes forward. It rolls Red Dice. It K-Turns. It curses at Squints who can dodge its firing arcs. Repeat.

The B-Wing and A-Wing are much closer to "Jack of all trades", though they both have a niche they'd rather fill. The E-Wing is the "Jack of all trades" version of the X-Wing, but is an even worse spot than the X-Wing.

Ships with Boost, barrel roll, turrets and/or powerful abilities have ways to make up their points that aren't pure jousting. That's why Fat Han has a low jousting efficiency, and yet is a consistent winner. Coran Horn has a set of upgrades that all work together to make his ability pay for his (comparatively) low jousting efficiency.

The X-Wing lacks these upgrades. It doesn't need the Green manuvers enough for R2 to be a great value. And when it _can_ use those green manuvers, it's to make use of an upgrade (R2D2 or BB-8) that fills the droid slot. PTL isn't great on an X-Wing because it only has 2 actions. Predator is ok on an X-Wing- except that one of those actions is a Target Lock. R2D2 is great, except- again!- lack of greens. Stressbot is ok, but again, limited greens to clear stress. And so on.

The only powerful upgrade slot the X-Wing has is a one that has consistently had 90% great abilities. R7-T1 adds a Boost, _and a Target Lock!_ As long as you're within range 1-2 of an enemy who has you in their sights. R5-K6 looks great! Until you read the bit about needing a natural evade to get any value from it. Targeting Astromech looks good! Except you only have 1 red manuver on the X-Wing.

It's not all bad. Tarn + R7 was already points efficient. Adding IA makes him a tank. I have high hopes for Luke + Predator + R5-P9 + IA (I hope to try this tonight).

But because the X-Wing is a pure Jouster, it needs to rely on health + green dice to earn back its points. It is one of the very few ships in the game this is true of. Even the B-Wing has interesting tricks and a barrel roll to avoid taking hits. Even the Y-Wing has the turret, so that it doesn't need to get ships in arc.

So in conclusion, X-Wing: pure Jouster. B-Wing: Jack of many trades. Y-Wing: Jack of many trades. Z-95: pure Jouster that's already in a great spot, and so not worth mentioning. TIE Fighter: not a pure Jouster (barrel roll, dial), but 95% pure Jouster, and already in a great spot.

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Agreed, the X-Wing serves one purpose, get the enemy in front of you and blast it, which it does pretty well. It just needs a little more points efficiency. I firmly believe that -1pt to the Astromech title would do that. It allows more flexible 4 ship lists, and gives a little space and initiative bid to 3 Ace lists.

 

Luke + R5P9 + Predator + IA is in my list as well now, along with Wedge + BB8 + PTL + IA, and Wes Janson + R3A2 + VI + IA. Wes may not be a stresshog but the ability to stress, and remove tokens is amazing for interrupting actions. Lowering the cost of Astromechs wouldn't help my list a lot, but it would really help any 4 X build.

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I firmly believe that -1pt to the Astromech title would do that. It allows more flexible 4 ship lists, and gives a little space and initiative bid to 3 Ace lists.

(Snip)

Lowering the cost of Astromechs wouldn't help my list a lot, but it would really help any 4 X build.

And MJ's numbers bear this out. If IA had reduced the cost of Astromechs by 1, the X-Wing would have nudged ahead of the B-Wing in terms of pure efficiency. Part of the problem- I think- is that most of the mechs are slightly over costed on X-Wings- but not T-70s, Y-Wings, or E-Wings. I think (for instance) adding all those greens to the T-65 is worth less than 1 point. But adding them to the Y-Wing? Oh yes! And try R2 + PTL + Sensor Jammer on Etahn in your next Epic game.

I am looking closely at R5, but that ability may never actually come up. If it was "take a stress, discard a crit", I'd pay 2 points for it for sure.

Similarly: if Targeting Astromech worked on stress tokens instead of red manuvers, it would see a lot of play. As it is, it only works when the X-Wing K-Turns. The Y-Wing and T-70 will love it, though!

But! Important note: I think there are probably now a couple _solid_ builds for the T-65. Not as many as I'd like. But I bet if we went back in time to the 2014 worlds, we could swap out 2 of the Talas from Pheaver's list for an X-Wing with some modern options, and he'd still be that year's champ. That's not nothing.

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Much as I love the X Wing and TIE Figher series I have to agree. The games were far more cinematic than they probably had a right to be. I mean if the Rebel Squadrons had killed TIEs at the rate you had to in order to pass each mission, then the rebellion had probably succeeded in depopulating large parts of the empire by the time they won. The fights were incredibly lopsided numbers wise. The highest scoring aces in WW2 had no more than a few hundred kills, Rebels must have had multiple pilots with those kill scores in each squadron :)

 

 

You mean few dozen... 5 kills were enough for Ace status during the Battle Of Britain.

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Much as I love the X Wing and TIE Figher series I have to agree. The games were far more cinematic than they probably had a right to be. I mean if the Rebel Squadrons had killed TIEs at the rate you had to in order to pass each mission, then the rebellion had probably succeeded in depopulating large parts of the empire by the time they won. The fights were incredibly lopsided numbers wise. The highest scoring aces in WW2 had no more than a few hundred kills, Rebels must have had multiple pilots with those kill scores in each squadron :)

 

 

You mean few dozen... 5 kills were enough for Ace status during the Battle Of Britain.

 

Erich Hartmann, 352 kills

Gerhard Barkhorn, 301 kills

There are a pile of Luftwaffe Aces with 100+ kills.

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