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GreenLantern1138

T-65 Fix?

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I don't understand the obsession with giving T-65's boost. Do people really think AT is that much of a must have on every ship? Increasing the cost via a must use title just makes it harder to run T-65 lists, without helping that much (still 2 AGI, not Poe). If you want more survivable ships think about something else. Repositioning is all well and good, but it's not the be all end all, overlapping fields of fire takes care of it pretty well.

 

I hope they don't make the T-65 a cheap T-70 clone, that would be terrible for gameplay, we don't need all the ships to be the same. Right now they are at a reasonable efficiency, making the Astromech 1pt cheaper would mean you have 21pt Rookies with IA and an R2 unit, or 22pt with an R7 and IA, which would be silly if you can get rid of a ship in a 2 ship build early. 

 

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Mostly because if a ship is better than dedicated niche alternatives it's a flaw of game design.

Jack of all trades shouldn't excell in any single parameter.

 

ties pay for their joust values by requiring tight and in many instances rather strenous block formation maneuvers, fear AoEs, bumps and the like.

B-s pay for theirs with a horrible dial, without an adv sensor they perform no better than a cow on ice and die to TLTs in moments

TLT joust value seems to be a mistake, FFG tried too hard to end the PWT Reign of terror, and even then a PS3 and a boost allows a ship to abuse the TLT donut hole pretty neatly.

 

65 has none of their problems, requires no formation thinking, has no upgrade requirements, isn't an autolose to TLTs and now it has a 1-point costing ability to simply discard any damage card. It's worth more than a shield.

and for most of the game the droid still functions.

Ace-65 suffers mostly because (yep, you guessed that) lack of innate boost.

what means you have to  pay a lot for the boost itself (deny enemy AT, deny Dash donut, deny TLT donut, deny R3 bonus, get R1 shots etc)

won't get AT what means you will lose to PWTs and TLTs, will lose to Brobots in a K-turn fight...

and will not get the IA bonus. 

 

IA pretty much fixed the generics. and aces won't get to tournament level power without innate boost. Period.

jacking stats up to eleven is just fanboy rant. It won't happen, hopefully.

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Mathwing puts the T-65 still slightly worse than the B. However B was probably too efficient for its points by comparison. Its certainly got more variety and potential in its roles because of its options.

Point is Bs can joust just as well if not better, but have sensors and barrel roll, more slots overall, as well as their stats and dial, which certainly isnt horrible and is easily mitigated, like you said, with the sensor slot. They lose some defense for reliability. Bs hold up just as well against TLTs than the X, better as they have more HP and are less reliant on green dice. Guarantee a T-65 will melt before TLTs just as fast, if not faster than a B, but Bs with a cheap offensive option in FCS are likely to kill TLT carriers faster. The T-65 only has droid and torps, both are questionable upgrades at the moment Compared to adv sensors or FCS. IA has given droids added utility but is hasnt really done anything for the X itself. The X is supposed to be a jack of all trades, in the fluff, but has very few things it can actually do in the game and its about as specialized a jouster as you can get. The B on the other hand supposed to be a slow capital ship killer, but in the game it is far more versatile and kills fighters better than the X.

Its the T-65 that is the niche at the monent because of that. With its average dial, limited upgradeability and total lack of repositioning bar a few corner case methods, the T-65 can ONLY joust and has no tricks unlike the B or Y. Therefore as MJ put it (and you also argue) if its a niche alternative then it should be good at the one thing it can do. Jousting.

I agree that it doesnt need stats of 11, as you say, but against the B it needs to be a better jouster as that is all it has. A few points better than the B to offset its lack of other options. So yes an X should outjoust Bs on raw potential.

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B-s suffer less because of K-turning, due to sensors, but their HP value means nothing to TLTs. Field-tested scum YYYY with all four Unhinged and YYYY with two Agros

completely OBLITERATE the BBBB, taking 1-2 casualties in the process. B's can't concentrate their firepower and get down to 1-2 hp in a salvo. Agro-YYYY managed to take down 1 per turn and in the process got no casualties what'sover.

FCS B's don't work as good as paper suggests. it's pretty hard to reliably track same Y with 2+ B's for more than a couple of turns. and B's tend to die themselves freakishly fast.

 

While XXXX of my own favourite flavor

lost 4-6 to the same list. because suddenly 2 evades do matter. and lower cost allows you to put a point into the PS, that really helps against BBBB, BBBBZ, Howl-swarm, Obsidian-swarm and isn't that one-sided as Howl-black-on-crack swarm that literally eats the named BBBB alive with no exceptions.

and it really were close fights.

 

More than that, X is currently the best spammable ship for epic. mostly for the 2 evades and extraordinary 3+2 +IA survivability.

 

If X is a better jouster than B, Tie, Z and Y who the hell will pick those, with their special problems?

If B doesn't joust, B never leaves the shelves. That's the point.

Edited by Warpman
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B's can't concentrate their firepower and get down to 1-2 hp in a salvo. Agro-YYYY managed to take down 1 per turn and in the process got no casualties what'sover.

That seems.... Odd. 4 B-Wings ought to be able to get a single Y-Wing in their sights. Granted, yes: 4 B-Wings can't reliably take down a Y-Wing in a single turn, and if 4 Y-Wings with TLT all fire at the same B-Wing, they'll probably drop it. But I'm very surprised to learn that you can't get 4 B-Wings pointed at the same Y-Wing.

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I've been proxying Integrated Astromech on my Porkins' Revenge XXXX list since the card was announced in September. After working through a few iterations, I'm extremely happy with its performance, enough that I bought four T-70 expansions so I could have the real cards.

 

It has beaten almost everything it has faced, including the standard competitive archetype builds (Palpmobile + 2 Aces, Brobots, TIE Swarms, Fat Han, Dash/Corran, 4Y TLT, etc.). I think there's quite a lot of debate about this but, having flown this list almost exclusively and learned to adapt its tactics to suit different types of opponents, I'm pretty confident I have a good chance of beating anything with it. I intend to test this theory in actual competitive play in the upcoming season.

 

Oh, and I'm having tons of fun, too, which is really the most important thing. Four X-Wings in tight formation looks awesome on the table.

Edited by surfimp

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For the last 2 years I have been saying the same thing, and have given suggestions for a fix. The dang community is stubborn though. No matter how many times I make a suggestion based on lore, they tell me it's canon or extended universe (when it's mostly not). This is my latest attempt to throw my ideas in the pile here

The reason I did not include a T-70 Title Card to the idea list is because the T-65 named Pilots either died, or would be too old by the time the T-70 came out. I would imagine in old age they stopped flying.

For the T-65AC4 Title Card, I did not put the Tallon Roll in because of the rules. You have to have a maneuver dial, that matches the model. It would also require the purchase of a T-70 Expansion, or the new Core.

Perhaps one thing I could of added was "Astromech to Computer" Modification card. That way the T-70 could get the same effect as the T-65D-A1 Title Card

I did a title for the X-Wing along the lines of your T-65AC4:

Corran Horn X-Wing:

x_wing_miniatures_game___corran_in_x_win

 

And a different approach for an X-Wing fix (helps T-60 without helping T-70):

 

 

 

Corran Horn should be 30-31 points. He's not as overpriced as the other E-wings, and that should be reflected in his points cost when you put him in an X-wing. The best abilities are worth more than 1-2 points.

 

Wes Janson is PS 8 at 29 points. How many points would you pay to replace his ability with a 2nd attack?

Edited by Vulf
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Wes Janson is PS 8 at 29 points. How many points would you pay to replace his ability with a 2nd attack?

Wedge is a hate magnate, and will die in about 2 rounds of fire. Coran Horn would die even faster, I think.

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That's not gonna change no matter what faction your murder-ace is in. Talon Bane Cobra is 28 points in the Kihraxz and his defensive buff only works against primary weapon attacks. Do you think Redline is going to get the chance to fire all 4 Cluster Missile shots in most games?

 

At least Rebels have Biggs. And Biggs has Integrated Astro and several decent defensive Astro options.

 

With the buff to ordinance, Captain Kagi and Expert Handling might find a comeback. Not useful against Deadeye lists, though. Carnor Jax doesn't stop target locks and Guidance Chips. There's no perfect solution.

Edited by Vulf
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That's not gonna change no matter what faction your murder-ace is in. Talon Bane Cobra is 28 points in the Kihraxz and his defensive buff only works against primary weapon attacks. Do you think Redline is going to get the chance to fire all 4 Cluster Missile shots in most games?

 

At least Rebels have Biggs. And Biggs has Integrated Astro and several decent defensive Astro options.

 

With the buff to ordinance, Captain Kagi and Expert Handling might find a comeback. Not useful against Deadeye lists, though. Carnor Jax doesn't stop target locks and Guidance Chips. There's no perfect solution.

Right. And since T-65 Coran is way less survivable than E-Wing Coran, his ability isn't worth as much. Also: no FCS takes a _lot_ of the power from his double tap.

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Wes Janson is PS 8 at 29 points. How many points would you pay to replace his ability with a 2nd attack?

Wedge is a hate magnate, and will die in about 2 rounds of fire. Coran Horn would die even faster, I think.

 

 

Oho what a punny pun you weave, Punning Pundit.

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Having more hull and Integrated Astromech doesn't make him less survivable. He's more resistant to shield ignoring silver bullets like AHM and Wampa.

 

There's no way Corran in an X-wing is cheaper than Wedge. That is just ridiculous.

Especially with all these free boost added to the action bar titles that keep getting thrown around.

 

If you want a 3 hull, 3 shield X-wing with boost, it's already in the game, go buy it.

Edited by Vulf
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Huh, Corran Khorne needs FCS for a double-tap murder, so he actually is worse in an X

more than that, he's doing nothing the following turn, R2D2 helps him make most out of it, and X-greens aren't the epic side of the ship, so nope, X-wing horn isn't what we're looking for.

 

I'd actually take E-wing Wedge. AdvSensors in his hands truly is a sight to behold.

 

 

X-wing shoould not outjoust Ties, B-s and all the rest of dedicated jousters. Game design > fanboyish wet dreams.

Edited by Warpman

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Corran Khorne (red dice for the red dice god!) can take R5-K6 for a much weaker FCS (which just goes to show how overpriced Wave I stuff was). Predator is probably the ideal choice here though.

 

Back to the T-65, just look at the Attack Shuttles. Those things are basically what people want the X-Wing to be. You lose TL and a Hull but you gain Barrel Roll and Evade. Look at Zeb. For 18 points, he has (almost) the same dial as an X-Wing plus B-Wing red 1-turn shenanigans and some damage negation. Hull Upgrade makes him a +1 PS Rookie X-Wing with some better abilities. And you can add crew, many of which give you great defensive returns. With Chewie, he becomes an IA X-Wing. Add Hull Upgrade and now you have a 25 point 7 hit / 2 evade monster.

 

Sabine IS basically a BX-Wing hybrid with Advanced Sensors and free Boost. For 21 points! Ezra Bridger aka Luke Lite only costs 20 points. To top it all off, these things can take turrets.

Edited by Lampyridae

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Corran Khorne (red dice for the red dice god!) can take R5-K6 for a much weaker FCS (which just goes to show how overpriced Wave I stuff was). Predator is probably the ideal choice here though.

 

Back to the T-65, just look at the Attack Shuttles. Those things are basically what people want the X-Wing to be. You lose TL and a Hull but you gain Barrel Roll and Evade. Look at Zeb. For 18 points, he has (almost) the same dial as an X-Wing plus B-Wing red 1-turn shenanigans and some damage negation. Hull Upgrade makes him a +1 PS Rookie X-Wing with some better abilities. And you can add crew, many of which give you great defensive returns. With Chewie, he becomes an IA X-Wing. Add Hull Upgrade and now you have a 25 point 7 hit / 2 evade monster.

 

Sabine IS basically a BX-Wing hybrid with Advanced Sensors and free Boost. For 21 points! Ezra Bridger aka Luke Lite only costs 20 points. To top it all off, these things can take turrets.

It works in 3\8 chances, requires you have TL in the first place and takes up astromech slot?

I'd say it's just a super-sucky step back v_v

 

Well, attack shuttle prices are really below the line. It's a rather well-known fact. 

although the dial isn't great (TIE-D hard turns are a lol, indeed)

 

Sabrine is...OP maybe. the closest match to her is Guri with adv sensors, and our blonde monster cost a wicked... 34 points >_>

and doesn't get to use PTL 3-action shenanigans Sabrine can.

 

Point is: if X-wing is a freaking overpowered son of a hutt, nobody takes any other ship. Why bother when X is the king of the hill due to stats?

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Huh, Corran Khorne needs FCS for a double-tap murder, so he actually is worse in an X

more than that, he's doing nothing the following turn, R2D2 helps him make most out of it, and X-greens aren't the epic side of the ship, so nope, X-wing horn isn't what we're looking for.

 

I'd actually take E-wing Wedge. AdvSensors in his hands truly is a sight to behold.

 

 

X-wing shoould not outjoust Ties, B-s and all the rest of dedicated jousters. Game design > fanboyish wet dreams.

 

In the X-wing vs TIE Fighter PC game, when flying an X-wing you could transfer all your shields to forward, and fly straight threw TIE Fighters, exploding them, while only taking a little bit of damage to your hull.

You had to reduce power to lasers to charge your shields up.

 

Though it is hilarious, I'm kind of glad this mechanic didn't make it in to the tabletop game.

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Hell, in E:VII...

...Poe Dameron tells his X-Wings to "fly right at them." Pretty much establishing the X-Wing in canon as a jouster if you ask me.

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and then he one-shots 5 in a row without taking fire at all

 

Plot armour is not a good idea for a game with gameplay and balance in mind.

and yeah, lore-wise Ties are experts on tailing foes, something that doesn't happen here any time except for hunting lambdas >_>

Edited by Warpman
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B-s suffer less because of K-turning, due to sensors, but their HP value means nothing to TLTs. Field-tested scum YYYY with all four Unhinged and YYYY with two Agros

completely OBLITERATE the BBBB, taking 1-2 casualties in the process. B's can't concentrate their firepower and get down to 1-2 hp in a salvo. Agro-YYYY managed to take down 1 per turn and in the process got no casualties what'sover.

FCS B's don't work as good as paper suggests. it's pretty hard to reliably track same Y with 2+ B's for more than a couple of turns. and B's tend to die themselves freakishly fast.

 

While XXXX of my own favourite flavor

lost 4-6 to the same list. because suddenly 2 evades do matter. and lower cost allows you to put a point into the PS, that really helps against BBBB, BBBBZ, Howl-swarm, Obsidian-swarm and isn't that one-sided as Howl-black-on-crack swarm that literally eats the named BBBB alive with no exceptions.

and it really were close fights.

 

More than that, X is currently the best spammable ship for epic. mostly for the 2 evades and extraordinary 3+2 +IA survivability.

 

If X is a better jouster than B, Tie, Z and Y who the hell will pick those, with their special problems?

If B doesn't joust, B never leaves the shelves. That's the point.

OK, first: 8 HP is 8 HP regardless. Yes, 4 TLTs COULD possibly take a B wing off the board IF they all roll successfully, assuming no additional defense modifiers and ASSUMING that all 8 shots were in range and arc. There are a number of very simple ways for the B Wing player to prevent this. However the B wing will also be PS2 at least, so will fire simultaneously with the PS2 Ys (you cant spam PS4 with TLTs). Also if all 8 shots from 4 TLTs have to hit 1 B to kill it outright, then the 12-16 red dice the B Wings can generate, will also be doing damage. The game is not a one sided argument taking place in a vacuum. Your enemy gets a vote. I have flown against TLT lists with 4Bs. Yes TLTs are a pain in the ass, because they reliably push damage through against all targets. The damage is consistent, but also avoids the peaks that can be achieved with more red dice – something the B wing has. A B can potentially do 4 damage to a TLT Y but can at most receive 2 back from the same ship. 4 TLTs can do 8 damage, but could receive 12-16 back, range dependent.

B Wings can’t concentrate fire? LOLwhut? Horse Puckey! Bs can concentrate fire at least as well as Xs and usually better because of BR/FCS. They can spread or tighten their formation and are not as reliant upon a single action with the ability to maintain TLs. Having flown a 4B wing list for years, I can tell you that much. I only stopped recently because it was beginning to annoy local players (one of them started to call me ‘B Hole’ – jokingly), but also because it got boring and felt like too much of an advantage. 4 FCS Bs works very well, it is nasty to face; I used to call it my ‘proctoscope’ list, as you pretty much use it in the same way :P.

If 4 TLTs can defeat 8 HP behind 1 green dice, then the same 8 shots won’t have a much harder time against 5-6 HP behind 2. Yeah occasionally the unreliable green octahedrons of disappointment might work. But TLTs can also deal very capably with 3 green dice interceptors, how are X Wings better than that?

Don’t use the epic strawman in this. The game is balanced around 100 points, not epic. I usually play larger games than 100 (usually at least 150) and I have found the Defender and Bomber do pretty well in Epic and bigger games too (I love my 4 Defenders and 6 Bombers) – are you saying that the defender and bomber doesn’t need the new fix? You can’t have it both ways. If it’s ok for the Imps to have their underperforming ships fixed, then it’s ok for all factions. OK, the X was in a better place (supposedly) than the defender. However given the reception IA has had so far, I remain to be convinced it is going to make the X as effective as it needs to be – to be seen in competitive play, which is why it is being improved. We will have to wait and see however.

Point is that X doesnt do anything except joust. Your argument is a strawman, Bs, Zs, TIEs and Ys dont really have that many problems at the moment (more pilots would be nice though :P). They are all pretty good at what they do and all pretty efficient with the options you can give them, or naked (Z and TIE). If the X was a better jouster B wing wouldnt suffer because it brings a lot of other stuff to the table, such as being tougher, cannon, sensors, BR better ordnance options etc. I'd bring them over an X dependent on the situation or whatever I felt like flying. You arent championing anything except your own fear of change here.

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