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GreenLantern1138

T-65 Fix?

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So you only want barrel roll and two mods? On top of IA. Why not evade too. Heck how about a title: when you reveal your maneuver dial regain a shield.

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1pt title.

You may equip a torpedo upgrade at no cost. The biggest point gain is for adv proton torpedoes but that is not easy for an x wing to shoot, torpedoes are weak and guidance chip fights for integrated astro's slot so it is not undercosted.

It is cinematic (the movies), jousty, and it works with many pilots and targeting astromech,

Edited by GeneticDrift
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So you only want barrel roll and two mods? On top of IA. Why not evade too. Heck how about a title: when you reveal your maneuver dial regain a shield.

That's no good, it needs to read: when you reveal your maneuver dial, you can choose one ship and remove it from the board. Because apparently that's how powerful having a barrel roll and two mods would be.

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The title, not the ship. A Stealth-X would lose its torpedo slot, a hull point and an attack point too. They had stripped down weapons and armour.

Granted.  But I don't think those things are really matter to what the ship is FOR.

 

For example, a fluffy TIE Shuttle should only have 1 attack.  It should also have shields and a system slot(because it had additional sensors).

 

But the TIE Shuttle title doesn't have any of that.  Because they recognized that all that really mattered was that you were exchanging ordnance for crew capacity.

 

 

Also, not sure what you mean by lose it's torpedo slot.  According to wookieepedia, they still have torpedoes.

Edited by DarthEnderX

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1pt title.

You may equip a torpedo upgrade at no cost. The biggest point gain is for adv proton torpedoes but that is not easy for an x wing to shoot, torpedoes are weak and guidance chip fights for integrated astro's slot so it is not undercosted.

It is cinematic (the movies), jousty, and it works with many pilots and targeting astromech,

I really like this idea, X wings were meant to be torpedo launchers in the Death Star attack. I think having an effectively free alpha strike in conjunction with IA makes them beefier and hit harder. Though you might need to include some kind of ordnance assist in the title, such as turn one blank to hit in addition to any weapon specific bonus.

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I don't think the X-Wing will receive the boost action. That would make it more like the T-70 and that is not an ideal situation; these ships have to be distinct, if anything.

The Defender received two fixes that focused on its main roles: an agile fighter and a carrier for cannons. I see a similar procedure being suitable for the X-Wing. One clear role is that of the jouster. Giving a discount on ordnance would be a good way to strengthen that role. This will make it a fighter that hits hard early in the game. Another role would be that of durable attack fighter. An X-Wing is not a glass cannon; it can survive into the late game. It tries to win the game by making the three attack dice last as long as possible. So some kind of durability upgrade might be a good idea. I'd say a 0 point generic astromech might do the trick, because this makes Integrated Astromech more attractive.

Making upgrades unavailable or less attractive for the T-70 is, I think, probably a good idea, but it has to be remembered that the T-70 generics are far from too powerful - they have some room to benefit from X-Wing fixes. But aside from that, a possible way to keep the upgrades for the T-65, and possibly avoid making some aces too powerful, would be to penalize boosts and barrel rolls, for example with a stress token.

But regardless of what fix is chosen, it should make sense in the way that the Defender fixes do. It should be done with a clear aim in mind. Simply adding boost or evade just makes up for one perceived weakness relative to other ships, but will only result in less variation. If they keep compansating ships like that, they will end up all doing roughly the same thing for roughly the same points. This will only stimulate min/maxing even more, as ships become more easy to compare. And then there will be only one clear winner.

a -1 point astromech that does nothing

bam ffg hire me

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-1 point seems lame. And making it an astromech seems out of place. Astromechs are cool not lame. A series of 0 point astros would be fun though,

Edited by GeneticDrift
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I really advocate the S-foils title idea. I've always liked the idea of having a 'flippable' function card. So I propose the following:

S-foils (Attack position): No real change. (Only cause I can't think of a simple fix atm)

S-foils (Flight position): Immediately perform a slam action

Sure the Bwing can use the S-foils upgrade, but it sure works better on an X-wing

 

sfoilscard.jpg

 

What about this one?

It's 0 points, so it doesn't increase the price of the already overcosted X-Wing.

 

Both sides have both positive and negative effects, so it's not autoinclude.

 

The "open" side increases the effectiveness of the ship's attacks, by adding one attack die at range 2 and 3, and depriving the defender from range 3 defense die bonus, or autothrusters. As a counter, these attacks never crit, and if you don't have focus tokens, crits actually decrease your damage output.

This should help the X-Wing actually pay for what it costs, as it increases the chance of it destroying an enemy ship before it is destroyed. The X-Wing doesn't have tricks, but becomes a dangerous jouster. Also, consider that this card doesn't mention "primary weapon", so think on what it does with certain ordnance.

 

The "closed" side gives you a weapons disabled token, so technically (read below) you cannot attack. However, your can perform the Evade and Boost actions that weren't available to you before. Also, all attacks against you are considered to be range 3, so you roll an extra defense die. This helps the X-Wing with survivability. If you think you are gonna be arc-dodged, go full evade or get out of their arcs. This boost or evade comes with the inconvenience of not being able to attack, so the X-Wing doesn't become a better TIE Interceptor or A-Wing. Just a more elusive jouster.

 

Lastly, both side have an optional Action: header that lets you immediately flip the card to the other side for the cost of one action. That allows you to make an advanced use of this card and try to benefit from both sides in a single round if you can afford it.

What a well thought out fix! I'm heavily biased to my idea, but I'd replace a boost with a slam (gain evade token) when S-foils are closed

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What about something like this:

T-65 Ordnance Package.

Title.

X-Wing only. Rebel Alliance only.

-4 points.

You must equip a Proton Torpedo upgrade, paying the full squad point cost. If your PS is 5 or higher, you may reroll any or all blank results when attacking with a <torpedo> secondary weapon.

Proton torps are the only piece of ordnance seen in the entire original trilogy, but they're just not competetive in game. This gives every T-65, from the Rookie pilot on up a boost, and gets those (somewhat) iconic weapons on the board, while still encouraging the use of the X Wings mid-PS uniques, who are mostly pretty cool, while also not really synergizing with the two T-65s who benefitted most fromIA (Tarn and Biggs).

After all, the most famous and important thing that an X Wing has ever done is destroy a Death Star - twice! And both times, they did it with Proton Torpedoes. They belong together! :D

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I really advocate the S-foils title idea. I've always liked the idea of having a 'flippable' function card. So I propose the following:

S-foils (Attack position): No real change. (Only cause I can't think of a simple fix atm)

S-foils (Flight position): Immediately perform a slam action

Sure the Bwing can use the S-foils upgrade, but it sure works better on an X-wing

 

sfoilscard.jpg

 

What about this one?

It's 0 points, so it doesn't increase the price of the already overcosted X-Wing.

 

Both sides have both positive and negative effects, so it's not autoinclude.

 

The "open" side increases the effectiveness of the ship's attacks, by adding one attack die at range 2 and 3, and depriving the defender from range 3 defense die bonus, or autothrusters. As a counter, these attacks never crit, and if you don't have focus tokens, crits actually decrease your damage output.

This should help the X-Wing actually pay for what it costs, as it increases the chance of it destroying an enemy ship before it is destroyed. The X-Wing doesn't have tricks, but becomes a dangerous jouster. Also, consider that this card doesn't mention "primary weapon", so think on what it does with certain ordnance.

 

The "closed" side gives you a weapons disabled token, so technically (read below) you cannot attack. However, your can perform the Evade and Boost actions that weren't available to you before. Also, all attacks against you are considered to be range 3, so you roll an extra defense die. This helps the X-Wing with survivability. If you think you are gonna be arc-dodged, go full evade or get out of their arcs. This boost or evade comes with the inconvenience of not being able to attack, so the X-Wing doesn't become a better TIE Interceptor or A-Wing. Just a more elusive jouster.

 

Lastly, both side have an optional Action: header that lets you immediately flip the card to the other side for the cost of one action. That allows you to make an advanced use of this card and try to benefit from both sides in a single round if you can afford it.

What a well thought out fix! I'm heavily biased to my idea, but I'd replace a boost with a slam (gain evade token) when S-foils are closed

 

 

I was concerned about the interactions between the SLAM action and the X-Wing dial (or those of the other ships the card can apply to). The K-Wing was clearly designed from the beginning to have SLAM, so it's dial is quite restricted (out of the epic ships, it's the ship with fewest amount of maneuvers in the game).

For example, wouldn't it be broken if an X-Wing did a 4-straight, followed by a SLAM of 4-koiogran? Okay, you cannot attack, but that would make the X-Wing perform the equivalent of a 9 speed koiogran and put it behind the enemy formation in the early stages of the game. That sounds broken.

And since I made the card also apply to other ships (to increase the likeliness of it coming with some other ship's expansion pack, not only X-Wing-related) the SLAM could have quite crazy combos. Starvipers doing 3-banks followed by 3-segnors, B-Wings doing 3-straight followed by 3-straigth for a total of the equivalent of 7-forward...

 

If anything, we could do something like "Your action bar gains the (boost) icon. When performing a (boost), you must use any of the speed 1, or speed 2 templates in your dial." to have something close to SLAM without making the X-Wing faster and more agile than an A-Wing...

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As for ordnance in the OT, what did the Falcon fire at the core of the Death Star 2?

Depends who's writing - some sources say proton torpedoes, some say concussion missiles.

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bar gains the (boost) icon. When performing a (boost), you must use any of the speed 1, or speed 2 templates in your dial." to have something close to SLAM without making the X-Wing faster and more agile than an A-Wing...

 

why does it always come to "GIVE BOOST"

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I have the BOOST X-Wing fix in my collection.

 

It's called the T-70.

also comes with super-cheesy Talon-rolls, extra shield and all that in less than EU price!

 

Sadly, wedge can't BATWEDGE in it, it's Poe-Only D:

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bar gains the (boost) icon. When performing a (boost), you must use any of the speed 1, or speed 2 templates in your dial." to have something close to SLAM without making the X-Wing faster and more agile than an A-Wing...

why does it always come to "GIVE BOOST"
The game has shifted more to movement-as-action (MA) and choosing position when other ships have already moved. There are many ways to compensate for the downsides (points costs, action economy).

The result is that playing without MA does not have a lot of advantages. So some of us get the idea that all ships should be able to react to other ships' moves.

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bar gains the (boost) icon. When performing a (boost), you must use any of the speed 1, or speed 2 templates in your dial." to have something close to SLAM without making the X-Wing faster and more agile than an A-Wing...

why does it always come to "GIVE BOOST"
The game has shifted more to movement-as-action (MA) and choosing position when other ships have already moved. There are many ways to compensate for the downsides (points costs, action economy).

The result is that playing without MA does not have a lot of advantages. So some of us get the idea that all ships should be able to react to other ships' moves.

 

I like the "we need to murder Ace-Boost-wing-meta not join it" idea more :D

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My thought for fixing the X-Wing is to give it an alternative manoeuvre which is can do instead of the one it selected on its dial - something like a sideslip, putting a turn template on the side pointing forward and putting the back nubs in the end.  Or even a circle-strafe, just doing a BR (as a manoeuvre) with the 3-turn, though that's less well supported by the background material - though I'd love to see a ship with that manoeuvre generally.

 

It gives it a new way of doing reactive/responsive movement without just GIVE BOOST.

 

Either as a title or a torp slot, cannot have tech slot, x-wing only.

 

Even just giving it some kind of free dial-alteration, navigator/stay on target style would be an interesting way of giving it a solid improvement in reactiveness without just giving it new actions.

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From listening to a lot of people, there were two major complaints about the T-65.  The first that it was over costed and the second was that it had no post dial maneuvers.  The IA card gives it a free hull upgrade, which fixes the price.  OK....those mathwingers might say the jousting value is not quite as good as a B-wing, but it's better than it was.  I say it's fixed enough.  The later part is what needs to be addressed for people to want to use it.   

 

Now, I am along the lines of "not every dang ship needs to have to Boost or Barrel Roll to be effective", but from what I've debated with various people in other threads, if it doesn't have something that allows it to move, it won't be popular.  

 

I think giving it Boost brings the old X-wing along the lines of the new X-wing.  Yes, you already have the T-70, but you don't have the old pilots in the new T-70.  Also, the T-70 has a better dial and an extra shield for more points.  I agree that Boost is not the most original idea, but I think it's the most logical.  

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Your opinion is wrong!

 

If you want boost on an X-wing you pay 4 points.

Or you use the crazy astromech that lets it use boost when in an arc.

 

A unique "Rogue Ace" title that adds the barrel roll icon to the action bar and increases defense by 1 for 2 points.

 

A title or other upgrade card that adds a 2nd astromech slot but the 2nd astromech must not be unique, called "Secondary Personality Matrix."

--This would double the usefulness of Integrated Astromech.

 

 

We need crazy stuff like that. Instead of making the ships cheaper, make them more efficient. The Rebels aren't about cheap mass produced ships that live by defense dice.

Edited by Vulf

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Oh, please don't just add boost or barrel roll.  Make it so you actually have to think about your play style to decide if this ship or another is right for your list.

 

My 3 favorite ideas:

 

3.  New action

Perform a 1 speed straight maneuver BACKWARDS.

 

2. "Strike X" Title

0 points

Upgrade bar gains 2 Torpedo Icons.

Reduce the cost of all equipped torpedo upgrades by 1 to a minimum of 0.

 

Guidance chips make this one feasible.

 

1. "Rogue" Title

2? points

When attacking or defending at range 2, roll one additional die.

 

This last one seems to be the best way to make this ship different from just about every other.  Really boosts their attack and durability if you can manage to maneuver into range 2 consistently.  The wording means you get to roll the extra green die even against secondaries like TLT and HLC as well as when attacking with a torpedo.  

 

Play testing needed to find the correct cost because Wedge, Luke, Biggs and Tarn all get a huge boost from this.  Even Hobbie with Targeting Astro could be a beast.

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bar gains the (boost) icon. When performing a (boost), you must use any of the speed 1, or speed 2 templates in your dial." to have something close to SLAM without making the X-Wing faster and more agile than an A-Wing...

 

why does it always come to "GIVE BOOST"

 

In the case of my proposal, that boost comes poisoned. If you have the boost action, you cannot attack because the side of the card that gives you boost, also gives you a weapons disabled token.

It doesn't join the Ace-boost-wing club, as you call it. It just gets more tools to get out of enemy arcs and live longer.

Most complains about the X-Wing is that for its price, other ships do it better what it was supposed to do, because they live longer or have some repositioning. For the X-Wing aces like Wedge, it happens often that they are blown up before they have a chance to do anything to get their points back.

They need a way to get out of danger, and at the cost of loosing their chance to attack, they could boost.

They need a way to last longer, by having the evade action, at the cost of loosing their chance to attack.

They need to become more fun, with a more involved gameplay, because the X-Wing came out when the game was much simpler, and the most complex ability was the Ion turret.

Using engine upgrade on a X-Wing doesn't solve much, because it makes one of its problems, their cost, even worse.

 

If you say that you are sick of Boost being always the proposed fix, sure. I woulnd't mind if they came out with another repositioning action like barrel roll, instead, or a totally new one. For example, the "Kadorto Spin: Perform a barrel roll using the speed 1 turn or bank template". Whatever, but it needs something.

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bar gains the (boost) icon. When performing a (boost), you must use any of the speed 1, or speed 2 templates in your dial." to have something close to SLAM without making the X-Wing faster and more agile than an A-Wing...

why does it always come to "GIVE BOOST"
The game has shifted more to movement-as-action (MA) and choosing position when other ships have already moved. There are many ways to compensate for the downsides (points costs, action economy).

The result is that playing without MA does not have a lot of advantages. So some of us get the idea that all ships should be able to react to other ships' moves.

I like the "we need to murder Ace-Boost-wing-meta not join it" idea more :D
Exactly. NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS BOOST.

MaA does not to be on every ship and it ignores the dial portion of the game.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer
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