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GreenLantern1138

T-65 Fix?

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I've read a lot of different opinions about the t-65 lately, especially in regard to the inevitable Rebel Veterans box that will follow the recently announced Imperial box. I think it's a shame that the good old t-65 is not worth flying any more, especially since it wastes so many good pilot cards like Wedge or Janson. I therefore initially assumed that the t-65 would be a natural choice for the veterans box, until it was pointed out to me that a) it is available in the old core set, the rebel transport and its own expansion and including it in another box would lead to an over-saturation of the physical model and b) it already has a substantial number of named pilots. 

Surely, then, the t-65 and all its aces could be brought back into the game by the inclusion of some specific cards without needing another model? Something that makes it similar to the t-70 while acknowledging the t-70 as its superior. These cards could be distributed in the Rebel Veterans box while leaving the e, y, b, a or whatever other wing model and ace cards available as the pack's actual centrepieces.

My idea would be a title card T-68 PROTOTYPE. IF YOUR PILOT SKILL IS 6 OR HIGHER AND YOU ARE NOT STRESSED WHEN YOU REVEAL A WHITE 3 RIGHT ANGLE TURN, YOU MAY PERFORM A RED 3 TALLON ROLL IN THE SAME DIRECTION. 2 or 3 points, whichever seems fairer, with the pilot skill restriction to thematically imply they wouldn't give this ship to just anybody. It would be a title so they could still use the integrated astromech mod or add engine upgrade if you're willing to pay the points and get something close to a t-70. Or if that seems too OP make it a modification to prevent the use of other modifications, like T-68 PROTOTYPE ENGINE with the same card description and maybe 0 to 1 point.

I feel like the original x-wing model and pilots are being forgotten but could easily be made desirable again without impinging upon newly released units or sacrificing game balance, theme or ease of distribution to the community. Am I far off track?

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Let's let FFG worry about how to distribute it. As far as it being a good fix: I like the idea of the T-65 getting a Troll, but that's not enough in itself to make either X-Wing as competitive as the standard TIE Fighter.

IA may well go some distance towards making the T-65 viable again. I think we'll be seeing a lot more Biggs going forward. We _might_ see a bit more Luke. Tarn + R7 is now a solid choice.

I also wonder about Wedge + IA + Targeting Astromech + Stay on Target? It's a bit tankier than it used to be, Stay on Target lets you use Wedge's PS9 to make repositioning decisions, and Targeting Astromech alleviates the penalty for making those repositioning decisions.

So before we say the T-65 needs a fix, let's make sure we know how week it is right now.

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For the last 2 years I have been saying the same thing, and have given suggestions for a fix. The dang community is stubborn though. No matter how many times I make a suggestion based on lore, they tell me it's canon or extended universe (when it's mostly not). This is my latest attempt to throw my ideas in the pile here

The reason I did not include a T-70 Title Card to the idea list is because the T-65 named Pilots either died, or would be too old by the time the T-70 came out. I would imagine in old age they stopped flying.

For the T-65AC4 Title Card, I did not put the Tallon Roll in because of the rules. You have to have a maneuver dial, that matches the model. It would also require the purchase of a T-70 Expansion, or the new Core.

Perhaps one thing I could of added was "Astromech to Computer" Modification card. That way the T-70 could get the same effect as the T-65D-A1 Title Card







 

Edited by RPLev
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The reason I did not include a T-70 Title Card to the idea list is because the T-65 named Pilots either died, or would be too old by the time the T-70 came out. I would imagine in old age they stopped flying.

 

That's why I like the idea of making a potential title a prototype available to veterans only. I reckon if a new x-wing was being invented, somebody like Wedge would want to have a go in it.

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Surely, then, the t-65 and all its aces could be brought back into the game by the inclusion of some specific cards without needing another model? Something that makes it similar to the t-70 while acknowledging the t-70 as its superior.

 

 

It already came out.  Integrated Astromech.

 

Compare a T-65 with Integrated Astromech to a T-70.  They have the same firepower.  Same agility.  Effectively the same hull and shields (the T-65 is actually slightly tougher, because it can potentially wait to stop a known crit).  They have the same dial except for the green 3-straight and t-rolls.  They have the same upgrade bar except for tech and the modification IA is taking up.  They have the same actions except for boost.  And the T-65 costs 2 points less after factoring in a minimum-price astromech (which frankly, you'll want to take anyway because there are a lot of great options).

 

Again; the T-70 is three more points over a T-65, and that gets you Boost, T-rolls, and a Tech and Modification upgrade slot.  That's a comparison that looks really good for a T-65.

Edited by Joker Two

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Surely, then, the t-65 and all its aces could be brought back into the game by the inclusion of some specific cards without needing another model? Something that makes it similar to the t-70 while acknowledging the t-70 as its superior.

 

 

It already came out.  Integrated Astromech.

 

 

I don't dispute how good IA is, but it doesn't help you get around any differently. And considering engine upgrade is 4 points on its own, the t-70 getting t rolls, an additional green move and boost for 3 points is a substantial upgrade. 

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With Integrated Astromech the X-Wing is now at the level of the B-Wing/better than it IMO, but there has been so much power creep that a ship that just moves once, does one action /maybe/, and attacks once (aka a "jouster") just can't compete anymore.

 

So IA would be enough of a fix provided there wasn't some obnoxious regen ace, turret, or Soontir in every squad.

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The issue with that Green Lantern, is the lore, plus the canon/extended universe. To the best of my knowledge there was only a few major X-Wing Models. I will list them for you:

ARC-170 (ancestor of the T-65)

T-65 (and all of its models including the T-65BR Reconnaissance model)

T-70 (no models from what I can see)

T-85 (no models from what I can see)

XJ3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (The XJ5 having two variants: The ChaseX and StealthX)(StealthX was smaller and could hide from visual, and sensors)

I am fairly certain that the ARC 170, the T-85, and the XJ models are considered canon or extended universe. There isn't a lot of info about some of those models

As for Prototypes.. There wasn't one that I can see of. The T-65 was meant to replace the Z-95.

The only other piece of information I can give you is that the T-65 flight controls were similar to a T-16 Skyhopper. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to fly

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With Integrated Astromech the X-Wing is now at the level of the B-Wing/better than it IMO, but there has been so much power creep that a ship that just moves once, does one action /maybe/, and attacks once (aka a "jouster") just can't compete anymore.

Nah.

Seriously, I think you're incorrect at every level: the T-65 is slightly less efficient a Jouster with IA as the B-Wing is naked.

The T-65 has never been, points-for-points, as good as the TIE Fighters it came boxed with in the first Core set. So if there's been "power creep", it's been hurting the X-Wing since the minute the game was released.

Engine Upgrade and PTL have been available since Wave 2- they haven't made the X-Wing great.

Oh. And R2D2 has been providing shield regen to the T-65 X-Wing since that same Core Set was released. I'd say most people's first Rebel build is Luke + R2D2. If shield regen by itself were amazing, Luke would be ruling all metas.

So the X-Wing may still need a tiny bit of a nudge. Maybe not. But probably. I think the nudge they have now is good enough to see them through until Wave 9...

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With Integrated Astromech the X-Wing is now at the level of the B-Wing/better than it IMO, but there has been so much power creep that a ship that just moves once, does one action /maybe/, and attacks once (aka a "jouster") just can't compete anymore.

Nah.

Seriously, I think you're incorrect at every level: the T-65 is slightly less efficient a Jouster with IA as the B-Wing is naked.

 

The T-65 with Integrated Astromech has a higher jousting efficiency than the B-wing per Major Juggler's math, although that comes at the cost of barrel roll and the upgrade slots.

 

As far as the IA X-wing's competitive viability... I feel like the generics are just waiting for a good 0-1 point Astromech that fits the ship (R5 Astromech will rarely do anything, and R2 is superflous in the majority of cases), although the Ace-Heavy metagame and the slight powercreep of TLT means jousters are facing an uphill battle. Tarn, Biggs, and Wedge have what they need, though, and Hobbie and Porkins got some new tricks via Targeting Astromech.

Edited by Squark

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With Integrated Astromech the X-Wing is now at the level of the B-Wing/better than it IMO, but there has been so much power creep that a ship that just moves once, does one action /maybe/, and attacks once (aka a "jouster") just can't compete anymore.

Nah.

Seriously, I think you're incorrect at every level: the T-65 is slightly less efficient a Jouster with IA as the B-Wing is naked.

The T-65 has never been, points-for-points, as good as the TIE Fighters it came boxed with in the first Core set. So if there's been "power creep", it's been hurting the X-Wing since the minute the game was released.

Engine Upgrade and PTL have been available since Wave 2- they haven't made the X-Wing great.

Oh. And R2D2 has been providing shield regen to the T-65 X-Wing since that same Core Set was released. I'd say most people's first Rebel build is Luke + R2D2. If shield regen by itself were amazing, Luke would be ruling all metas.

So the X-Wing may still need a tiny bit of a nudge. Maybe not. But probably. I think the nudge they have now is good enough to see them through until Wave 9...

 

When I complain about certain power upgrades I'm complaining about certain game ruining combinations of them. Obviously Luke with R2-D2 or a Black Squadron with Predator or VI isn't the problem.

 

So whenever someone points out that engine upgrade or ptl or regen on certain ships is broken, someone will comment about how long those cards have been around and, "lol if engine upgrade is so game breaking how come you never see it on Y-Wings?" or, "But Tycho has been able to do 15 actions a turn since wave 2, and boost, stop complaining about boostwing". No ****.

 

There is a difference between, "Hey, the X-Wing is 2 points overcosted and underperforms when compared to a similar amount of points put into TIE Fighters." and, " I have 2 Rookie X-Wings, there is nothing that I can do against this Soontir player except try to run until time."

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There is a difference between, "Hey, the X-Wing is 2 points overcosted and underperforms when compared to a similar amount of points put into TIE Fighters." and, " I have 2 Rookie X-Wings, there is nothing that I can do against this Soontir player except try to run until time."

First: ( https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/195742-what-would-it-take-to-make-the-t-65-competitive/?p=1934570 )

B-wing: 92.5%

X-wing + I.A: 92.3% (3/2/1/5 @ 22)

X-wing + I.A: 91.3% (3/2/2/4 @ 22)

So the naked B-Wing nudges the X-Wing out in pure jousting. People might have been thinking of the numbers for IA at a -1 point discount for the Astromech, which is listed at 95.6% efficient.

Or there might be newer numbers.

Secondly: 35 points of Soontir vs 36 points of Z-95s would be _interesting_, and I'd bet a skilled blocker could take down Soontir.

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There is a difference between, "Hey, the X-Wing is 2 points overcosted and underperforms when compared to a similar amount of points put into TIE Fighters." and, " I have 2 Rookie X-Wings, there is nothing that I can do against this Soontir player except try to run until time."

First: ( https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/195742-what-would-it-take-to-make-the-t-65-competitive/?p=1934570 )

B-wing: 92.5%

X-wing + I.A: 92.3% (3/2/1/5 @ 22)

X-wing + I.A: 91.3% (3/2/2/4 @ 22)

So the naked B-Wing nudges the X-Wing out in pure jousting. People might have been thinking of the numbers for IA at a -1 point discount for the Astromech, which is listed at 95.6% efficient.

Or there might be newer numbers.

Secondly: 35 points of Soontir vs 36 points of Z-95s would be _interesting_, and I'd bet a skilled blocker could take down Soontir.

 

No, you wouldn't be able to take down Soontir with 3 Z's unless your opponent was an idiot.

 

Secondly, the ability to do a green hard 2 (or even a green 2 bank) out of a K-turn with R2 on an X-Wing more than makes up for the miniscule difference in jousting efficiency. I'm not out of line when I say that they're at the very least on par with each other.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer
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Honestly,   two rookies should not be able to take down some the of the Best Aces in the Galaxy, maybe they can get lucky once in a while, but most times 98% of the time they should lose.   It makes sense.   I know your trying to state that points wise it doesn't, but PS is worth way more than people think.

Edited by eagletsi111
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The issue with that Green Lantern, is the lore, plus the canon/extended universe. To the best of my knowledge there was only a few major X-Wing Models. I will list them for you:

ARC-170 (ancestor of the T-65)

T-65 (and all of its models including the T-65BR Reconnaissance model)

T-70 (no models from what I can see)

T-85 (no models from what I can see)

XJ3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (The XJ5 having two variants: The ChaseX and StealthX)(StealthX was smaller and could hide from visual, and sensors)

I am fairly certain that the ARC 170, the T-85, and the XJ models are considered canon or extended universe. There isn't a lot of info about some of those models

As for Prototypes.. There wasn't one that I can see of. The T-65 was meant to replace the Z-95.

The only other piece of information I can give you is that the T-65 flight controls were similar to a T-16 Skyhopper. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to fly

God I sure hope the ARC-170 is canon.

I mean, it appeared in Episode III various times.

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If it's not Lackwit.. It would probally be the ugliest ship in X-Wing TMG lol. Jokes aside yes it would be Op. It would give the Rebels a cheap ship with a forward and rear arc like the Firespray.

Another OP one is if they put that StealthX in. It wasn't true stealth like the Tie Phantom but, it could hide. Imagine if it's thing was "can't be attacked by secondary weapons, and can't be target locked until it attacks". In the Universe that is what it was capable of. It would be very trolly lol

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I know your trying to state that points wise it doesn't, but PS is worth way more than people think.

Depends on the ship, honestly. The more post manuver movement options a ship has, the more PS matters for that ship. Wedge (without upgrades like EU or Stay on Target) does not _need_ to be at PS9, PS8 or even PS7 would be good enough. Worst case scenario for Wedge is that he focuses instead of Target Locking. He may have been doing that anyway.

Soontir Fel, through... His whole key to survival is not being hit. So he _needs_ PS9. Same with Whisper.

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Surely, then, the t-65 and all its aces could be brought back into the game by the inclusion of some specific cards without needing another model? Something that makes it similar to the t-70 while acknowledging the t-70 as its superior.

 

 

It already came out.  Integrated Astromech.

 

Compare a T-65 with Integrated Astromech to a T-70.  They have the same firepower.  Same agility.  Effectively the same hull and shields (the T-65 is actually slightly tougher, because it can potentially wait to stop a known crit).  They have the same dial except for the green 3-straight and t-rolls.  They have the same upgrade bar except for tech and the modification IA is taking up.  They have the same actions except for boost.  And the T-65 costs 2 points less after factoring in a minimum-price astromech (which frankly, you'll want to take anyway because there are a lot of great options).

 

Again; the T-70 is three more points over a T-65, and that gets you Boost, T-rolls, and a Tech and Modification upgrade slot.  That's a comparison that looks really good for a T-65.

 

but t70 gets IA too. or autothrusters if points allow. 

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The issue with that Green Lantern, is the lore, plus the canon/extended universe. To the best of my knowledge there was only a few major X-Wing Models. I will list them for you:

ARC-170 (ancestor of the T-65)

T-65 (and all of its models including the T-65BR Reconnaissance model)

T-70 (no models from what I can see)

T-85 (no models from what I can see)

XJ3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (The XJ5 having two variants: The ChaseX and StealthX)(StealthX was smaller and could hide from visual, and sensors)

I am fairly certain that the ARC 170, the T-85, and the XJ models are considered canon or extended universe. There isn't a lot of info about some of those models

As for Prototypes.. There wasn't one that I can see of. The T-65 was meant to replace the Z-95.

The only other piece of information I can give you is that the T-65 flight controls were similar to a T-16 Skyhopper. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to fly

God I sure hope the ARC-170 is canon.

I mean, it appeared in Episode III various times.

 

and is AWESOME

statwise it should be 2-2-5-1 

with aux arc (gunner)

 

and secondary weapon mouts for X BOX HUGE hlk's on wing mounts.

yep, prequels are good.

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Honestly,   two rookies should not be able to take down some the of the Best Aces in the Galaxy, maybe they can get lucky once in a while, but most times 98% of the time they should lose.   It makes sense.   I know your trying to state that points wise it doesn't, but PS is worth way more than people think.

Game balance should trump lore.

 

These situations where you have your ~40 points of normal ships against your opponent's /super/ 35 points in the end game and you're losing are irritating. It happens often and you'll trade your 50-60 points of Z's or whatever for your opponent's fat turret and be left with 48 points of Z's against a 48 point Super Corran and have no chance.

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If you honestly can't take down Soontir with a force larger then him, you are playing the game wrong. It's that simple. It's like saying 3 TIEs can't beat Fel. That isn't the case, if you know what you are doing, don't have a defeatist attitude, and plan accordingly you can always come out in a battle like that.

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The T-65 with Integrated Astromech has a higher jousting efficiency than the B-wing per Major Juggler's math, although that comes at the cost of barrel roll and the upgrade slots.

 

Noooope! MJs math actually puts the X-wing with IA below a bog standard B-wing, with a 1 point droid like R2 or R5. Any more points, and that inefficiency gap increases fast.

 

That's why I find it both incredibly frustrating and downright hillarious when anytime anyone says the T-65 clearly still isn't good enough, all these people crawl out of the woodwork to tell you:

 

 

It already came out.  Integrated Astromech.

 

Oh ok then. I guess Alex Davey is wrong. But let's hear your reasoning:

 

 

Compare a T-65 with Integrated Astromech to a T-70.

 

sad trombone. Yes, I'm sure if you compared the T-65 to a Scyk you'd see the X-wing is better point for point.

 

Or to put it more simply, comparing an inefficient ship to another inefficient ship does not prove one of them is any good. It proves one of them is marginally better than the other.

 

And because I know some incredibly clever person is going to point out the T-70 made Worlds final table in both lists, I'm going to point out that it was Poe, who has an amazing pilot ability, coupled with one of the Regen Astromechs. Corran making Finals does not make the Blackmoons great.

 

Darth Vader + Fix is superb. He is undeniably tip-top of the Imperial Meta, and generic Tie Advanceds + fix made a strong showing at worlds too.

 

Soontir Fel is so fantastic he didn't even need a fix to take his place next to Vader at the top of the Meta. He has such a legendary reputation, he's pretty much the gold standard for arc dodging, to the point where he's almost synonymous with the term. Women love him, men want to be him, and according to List Juggler, he's the second most taken Imperial Pilot. Behind Academy pilot.

 

Han Solo also needs no introduction. Fat Han dominated the meta for so very long. Han Solo is basically THE PWT. He's great, is what I'm getting at.

 

Wedge Antilles + """"""fix"""""" is just awful. At best, with BB-8 + PTL, you get a good-but-probably-not-worth-34-points ship that can only do green maneuvers if it wants to use any of the upgrades you've given it. Compare this fecal matter to Fel + PTL + AThrusters + Stealth. It's not even close, and anyone telling you it is is lying through their teeth.

 

So to wrap up:

 

From a Gameplay point of view, Wedge is not worth the points invested that you couldn't invest in Corran or Poe, or equal points of Bs and Zs.

 

From a Lore point of view, Wedge is most certainly not the decorated, Rogue Squadron leading cool headed badass he should be. He is not the equal of Soontir Fel.

 

From a Certain point of view, Wedge ceased to be the awesome pilot Wedge Antilles and "became" a waste of 29 points. When that happened, the good pilot that was Wedge was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a cer- oh wait I already did that bit.

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