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Warpman

And now Scyk, ladies and gentlepilots!

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I think part of the problem with the M3 is the players themselves. Now before you grab some rope and start looking for a tree, think for a minute. Would the ship be any good without the title card? Just a plain old M3-A. Yeah it is. Very similar in abilities and cost as a run of the mill Tie. A swarmable, light weight, expendable blocker.

Then you add in the title that lets this interceptor strap on some fire power. Now you're looking at the same ship but costing 6 to 9 points more. Still only 3 HP and with the stock dial. The cannon upgrades will give you one or two more combat turns than the missile armed variant but you're still flying the same light weight, expendable blocker.

I can see these being used by the S&V to take down a transport or one or two to provide some punch and overwatch going against a YT build or as the assault ac vs the Gozanti but they aren't hard enough for jousters or fast and agile enough to be good flankers.

When you ask for a "fix" you're basically asking for a new ship called the M3-A and using that model.

Edit: I do think they should access to the Illicit Upgrade.

At the swarm level 2 point over Tie sounds horrible, and lack of 3-turn or force multipier means they can't do formation runs, and lose to Ties in a dicefest. even if they were 12 points, not the 14 Howlie makes the Ties that much deadlier.

 

 

The ship is overpriced at 1-2 points

title is overpriced by 1-2 points.

 

guns cost points as well.

More than that, gun means they want to stay at R3, but they are also not 1-straight users to do it effectively

 

 

It is plainly awful when you think of it. A-wing costs 1 point more and is more awesome in like every regard.

Tie\FO? 1 point for a hull, segnor goodness, super green dial...

and now this.

 

scyk wasn't good back then, now it really looks like an awfully bad joke.

Can't really remember a ship that sucked more.

The point I was trying to make is that the call for fixes is changing what the Scyk is. Give it a Scyk refit that reduces cost by 2 points but prevents you from taking the Heavy Scyk title. Now you have a ship cost on par with the Tie. Dial still isn't as good as the Tie for the same price. Give it the Tie dial. Now you have a ship that costs like a Tie and moves like a Tie and shoots like a Tie. But it's not a Tie. Or is it?

My favorite ship is the Z. The runt of the X-wing family. It needs a fix or so I've read. I don't want to change the ship but I think some non-unique pilots that could take EPTs would help. Everybody has a favorite ship and each one of those players sees something that "needs" improved upon. The X needs a point reduction becuse you can't fly 5 of them. The Defender's dial needs improved because its low speed maneuvers need a bump. Do you see where I'm going with this? Fixes can't alter what the ship IS or you end up with a M3 that cost like a Tie and flies like a Tie. FFG realizes this. It's easier to ratchet up a ship than to step down on it.

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It's been mentioned before, but FFG really does seem to struggle with the pricing of 3 agility ships. Outside of the Tie Fighter, almost all of them have seen some type of "fix" or revisit, or need one still.

 

-A-wing (Reb Aces)

-E-wing (the fact that one pilot is so dominant and the others are never seen makes their pricing struggle more apparent)

-Tie Advanced (Raider)

-Tie Adv Prototype (yet to see how this one pans out)

-Tie Defender (Imp Vets)

-Tie Interceptor (Imp Aces, Autothrusters... Most still struggle while few excel)

-Tie/FO (hasn't been super popular since release, but I think it's probably gonna be ok)

-M3A interceptor (Worst ship in the game at the moment imo)

-Star Viper (Generics struggle, and named pilots aren't crazy good either)

 

 

 

Just thought it was interesting.

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My Scyk is jealous of those green 1-turns. You could go slow and Push the Limit to get fully modified Heavy Laser Cannon shots from a Tansarii Point Veteran. 

 

Still, the Scyk's day will come. I'm in no hurry to see it fixed. I'll just keep flying it in casual games for now.

Exactly, this dial is better than the TIE Advanced. This can be a slower PTL interceptor but this is the dial that the Scyk needs.

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I think part of the problem with the M3 is the players themselves. Now before you grab some rope and start looking for a tree, think for a minute. Would the ship be any good without the title card? Just a plain old M3-A. Yeah it is. Very similar in abilities and cost as a run of the mill Tie. A swarmable, light weight, expendable blocker.

Then you add in the title that lets this interceptor strap on some fire power. Now you're looking at the same ship but costing 6 to 9 points more. Still only 3 HP and with the stock dial. The cannon upgrades will give you one or two more combat turns than the missile armed variant but you're still flying the same light weight, expendable blocker.

I can see these being used by the S&V to take down a transport or one or two to provide some punch and overwatch going against a YT build or as the assault ac vs the Gozanti but they aren't hard enough for jousters or fast and agile enough to be good flankers.

When you ask for a "fix" you're basically asking for a new ship called the M3-A and using that model.

Edit: I do think they should access to the Illicit Upgrade.

At the swarm level 2 point over Tie sounds horrible, and lack of 3-turn or force multipier means they can't do formation runs, and lose to Ties in a dicefest. even if they were 12 points, not the 14 Howlie makes the Ties that much deadlier.

 

 

The ship is overpriced at 1-2 points

title is overpriced by 1-2 points.

 

guns cost points as well.

More than that, gun means they want to stay at R3, but they are also not 1-straight users to do it effectively

 

 

It is plainly awful when you think of it. A-wing costs 1 point more and is more awesome in like every regard.

Tie\FO? 1 point for a hull, segnor goodness, super green dial...

and now this.

 

scyk wasn't good back then, now it really looks like an awfully bad joke.

Can't really remember a ship that sucked more.

The point I was trying to make is that the call for fixes is changing what the Scyk is. Give it a Scyk refit that reduces cost by 2 points but prevents you from taking the Heavy Scyk title. Now you have a ship cost on par with the Tie. Dial still isn't as good as the Tie for the same price. Give it the Tie dial. Now you have a ship that costs like a Tie and moves like a Tie and shoots like a Tie. But it's not a Tie. Or is it?

My favorite ship is the Z. The runt of the X-wing family. It needs a fix or so I've read. I don't want to change the ship but I think some non-unique pilots that could take EPTs would help. Everybody has a favorite ship and each one of those players sees something that "needs" improved upon. The X needs a point reduction becuse you can't fly 5 of them. The Defender's dial needs improved because its low speed maneuvers need a bump. Do you see where I'm going with this? Fixes can't alter what the ship IS or you end up with a M3 that cost like a Tie and flies like a Tie. FFG realizes this. It's easier to ratchet up a ship than to step down on it.

 

 

If the Scyk cost like the TIE naked, it would be around right gamewise (fluff wise its supposed to be tougher - it has the hull strength of the TIE but with basic shelds). 

 

Back to game-wise, it would then have an inferior dial to the TIE but has the TL action. It's also a lot different from the Z-95 (which it shares a faction with and not the TIE Fighter); the Z-95 is faster, but the Scyk would be nimbler at low speed. To give it a refit that prevents taking the Heavy Scyk is simple - make the fix a title as well.

 

The Z-95 doesn't need a fix so much as it needs an injection of freshness. The Z-95 was the Honda Civic of Star Wars. It has so many mods in the back story (Custom 2 man cockpits, Z95t (adds advanced sensors and hyperdrive, etc), Unlike the Scyk or other ships that needed fixes, these should cost points. More pilots help as well. There have been Z-95 aces before but those are pre rebellion era (not like FFG hasn't used Clone Wars era characters before for Scum in particular).

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What do mean when you say "game-wise"? Comparing the Scyk to the Tie? The difference between the Tie's 3 hull and the 2 hull and 1 shield of the Syck is one point in terms of modification cost. The Targeting Computer is 2 points in modification cost. You can look at it as the Scyk has been discounted 1 point from an upgraded Tie.

While I really like the comparisons MJ did in his analysis and I think they are useful as rough rule of thumb comparisons, I don't believe they should be used to determine fixes or as a hard scale to compare costs. As an example how much more beneficial is a shield over a hull? Crits show up on dice 1/8 of the time but there are game mechanics that increase their probability. What point cost do you assign to Howlrunner's reroll vs a Targeting Computer?

FFG may very well have some alogarithm that determines the added value of shields vs hull that's not factored into MJ's numbers. Take for instance the matchups in the core set. Two Ties vs 1 X-wing. One more HP for the Imps, better maneuver dials plus an evade and barrel roll on the action bar. Yet if the point totals are the same the Rebel player can win.

What I was trying to get across, not very successfully, is that a lot of the fixes called for or recommended actually alter the 'essence', if you will, of the ship. A Syck that's 2 points less becomes a souped up Tie with a different dial. FFG has a tough job balancing ships in the game. Not only do the ships have to be playable but new ships coming into the game can't be over powered and they have to be different enough from the existing ships for us to buy them. There are different ways to balance the game. Ship cost and dials, whether or not pilots can take EPTs, what point cost to assign to a pilot's special ability and what cost to assign to that pilot are just some that I think FFG uses. I think the cost of a base M3 is pretty much spot on until you try making it into a flying cannon.

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It's way easier to fix than nerf down. 4 HLCs, with goodies, is no joke. They were playing with fire with that ship.

A meta dominated by quad Scyk? Sign me up.

Remember, we can get a ship that can boost and barrel roll with a large base and use an HLC as a ******* turret, but a soap bubble with a cannon slot? Now THAT'S overpowered, can't have that actually be good. Better make that cost 16 points before you even put the 7 cost HLC on it.

I would have loved for quad Scyk to play a role in the Turretwing meta.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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They need to print a new title and change the old one to increase hull by one:

 

"Light Scyk" Interceptor - After performing an action, you may assign a focus token to your ship.

I'm thinking 1 point like the v1 Title, just silly good. Or maybe restrict the Focus token to just after evade and barrel rolls.

This could also work as a Scyk only modification. "After market mods" or something.

 

 

 

And just for ***** and giggles:

"Medium Scyk" Interceptor - You may upgrade to large for just ¢50 more.

 

 

 

Either that or they should print a 2 point Scyk only "Flak Gun"

 

Range 1-2

3 attack dice

2 attacks against the same target.

If this attack hits, cancel all results and deal 1 point of damage to the defender and remove a blue target lock token from them.

Edited by Vulf

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It's way easier to fix than nerf down. 4 HLCs, with goodies, is no joke. They were playing with fire with that ship.

It also makes us buy more ships! Where would the aces/veteran/large ship expansion packs come from if there were no needed fixes alongside them? :P

 

I'm fine with it though. Better they revisit the ships then leave them all behind to die.

Yeah, I'm from the Games Workshop world, where some people waited for fixes to their favorite units for (no exaggeration) longer than X-wing has even been a game.

 

Some books went un-fixed for longer than some players have been alive, never mind X-Wing!  Brettonnia?  Skaven?  Lol...

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What do mean when you say "game-wise"? Comparing the Scyk to the Tie? The difference between the Tie's 3 hull and the 2 hull and 1 shield of the Syck is one point in terms of modification cost. The Targeting Computer is 2 points in modification cost. You can look at it as the Scyk has been discounted 1 point from an upgraded Tie.

While I really like the comparisons MJ did in his analysis and I think they are useful as rough rule of thumb comparisons, I don't believe they should be used to determine fixes or as a hard scale to compare costs. As an example how much more beneficial is a shield over a hull? Crits show up on dice 1/8 of the time but there are game mechanics that increase their probability. What point cost do you assign to Howlrunner's reroll vs a Targeting Computer?

FFG may very well have some alogarithm that determines the added value of shields vs hull that's not factored into MJ's numbers. Take for instance the matchups in the core set. Two Ties vs 1 X-wing. One more HP for the Imps, better maneuver dials plus an evade and barrel roll on the action bar. Yet if the point totals are the same the Rebel player can win.

What I was trying to get across, not very successfully, is that a lot of the fixes called for or recommended actually alter the 'essence', if you will, of the ship. A Syck that's 2 points less becomes a souped up Tie with a different dial. FFG has a tough job balancing ships in the game. Not only do the ships have to be playable but new ships coming into the game can't be over powered and they have to be different enough from the existing ships for us to buy them. There are different ways to balance the game. Ship cost and dials, whether or not pilots can take EPTs, what point cost to assign to a pilot's special ability and what cost to assign to that pilot are just some that I think FFG uses. I think the cost of a base M3 is pretty much spot on until you try making it into a flying cannon.

aha, now take scyk and a-wing.

1 extra shield costs 4? okay, 2 points

boost costs 4 points

barrelroll costs 2 points

 

so 14+2+4-2=18 points

oh gods a-wing is so underpriced!

It's so UNDERpriced they gave it a Charidan refit! -2 points.

 

see the point? simply not correct to make such crude calculations as you just said.

 

souped up tie? Right now it's a severely overpriced ship with 3 ships in it's pricing group that are over him in EVERY ASPECT POSSIBLE.

the dial, the survivability, the actions.

the heavy title didn't make it a special niche, because it's an overpriced title for an overpriced ship in a world of really expensive secondary weapons.

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Scyk having target lock shouldn't figure into the value.

 

3 Agility low pilot skill ships use Focus to modify, because it helps them survive until they get a chance to fire. Do you ever see TIEs pay 2 points for Targeting Computer? Outside of a troll Wampa build.

 

The target lock is only there in case you want missiles from the title, which is an odd choice.

If you want a cheap missile boat, you bring a Z-95. Without needing the title, they can be 4 points cheaper.

 

 

You can get some use out of Target Lock if you bring one of the 2 elite talent Scyks and put Push the Limit on it.

But at the points you are dumping into a 3 hit point ship, you might as well use a Black Sun Ace PS 5 Kihraxz instead.

 

Cartel Spacers would have been perfectly fine at 13 points. The same cost as Black Sun Soldier. (I think this is a better comparison than with other faction ships)

Cartel has roll and evade (you'll probably still use Focus over evade).

The Soldier has the illicit slot upgrade, the extra shield, can equip missiles without a 2 point title, and has 1 higher PS.

 

 

These guys are equivalent to TIE Fighters and should have been priced that way. The chances of that one shield stopping an opponent's one crit aren't worth 2 points. Especially when you consider they are more prone to getting killed by weapons that bypass shields and deal a card directly.

Edited by Vulf

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You can't put titles that cost points on the fragile little beetles and pretend it's a fix.

 

Any fix needs to make them worth the points they cost.

 

Heavy Scyk title should just flat-out be reprinted or replaced by a title that does the same thing only cheaper (leaving the Heavy Scyk title in the bin with Avenger Squadron, Knave Squadron, Red Squadron, etc...)

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Did someone really say earlier that the Z-95 needed a fix too? Didn't it just show up in the winning Worlds list? And that was the rebel Z, the scum Z is in even better shape! Shame on you! This is the Scyk pity party!

Ya, I was baffled by this too. Z-95 is not in need of a fix at all. More pilots would be nice, yes, but a "fix" is in no way needed.

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Ok so I have yet to proxy this, buy I think the tractor beam on 3 scyk, with one being serissu for extra defense, and 2 low PS 3 dice ships for punch (kihraxz, or mist hunter) could be a nice. Spam less agility dice, and unload with heavy attack ships. Let's see where the mist hunter points come in, but could be fun!

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What do mean when you say "game-wise"? Comparing the Scyk to the Tie? The difference between the Tie's 3 hull and the 2 hull and 1 shield of the Syck is one point in terms of modification cost. The Targeting Computer is 2 points in modification cost. You can look at it as the Scyk has been discounted 1 point from an upgraded Tie.

While I really like the comparisons MJ did in his analysis and I think they are useful as rough rule of thumb comparisons, I don't believe they should be used to determine fixes or as a hard scale to compare costs. As an example how much more beneficial is a shield over a hull? Crits show up on dice 1/8 of the time but there are game mechanics that increase their probability. What point cost do you assign to Howlrunner's reroll vs a Targeting Computer?

FFG may very well have some alogarithm that determines the added value of shields vs hull that's not factored into MJ's numbers. Take for instance the matchups in the core set. Two Ties vs 1 X-wing. One more HP for the Imps, better maneuver dials plus an evade and barrel roll on the action bar. Yet if the point totals are the same the Rebel player can win.

What I was trying to get across, not very successfully, is that a lot of the fixes called for or recommended actually alter the 'essence', if you will, of the ship. A Syck that's 2 points less becomes a souped up Tie with a different dial. FFG has a tough job balancing ships in the game. Not only do the ships have to be playable but new ships coming into the game can't be over powered and they have to be different enough from the existing ships for us to buy them. There are different ways to balance the game. Ship cost and dials, whether or not pilots can take EPTs, what point cost to assign to a pilot's special ability and what cost to assign to that pilot are just some that I think FFG uses. I think the cost of a base M3 is pretty much spot on until you try making it into a flying cannon.

 

First, I think that FFG probably couldn't afford to hire someone with MJs degree and while I really appreciate their work and like the people that work for them, doubt they have a system that is anywhere near as effective as his.

 

With regard to your post, upgrade cards are typically overpriced for what you're getting, so arguing a Scyk is getting (TL and Shield) a discount t is a bit flawed.

 

A single shield can be useful on a ship, but it's not that much more useful than a hull.   For it to be useful, two things have to happen -- you take a single crit on your first hit and that is all.   If you take two damage or you've already been hit it's worthless.  

 

Looking at the TL, that requires another action that is less efficient than other actions and it's on a low PS pilot.  Sure, it's great to have the option and there are times when you can make use of it, but I've flown Scyks and I rarely use it, especially what have been turret heavy metas for a long time.

 

Put this another way.  If there were a modification or title that cost 2 points allowed me to change a hull to a shield and add a TL to a tie, would I put it on a TIE?  I'm confident I wouldn't.

 

I understand what you mean about the feel and play of a ship, but that shouldn't be an effect of its cost.  

Edited by AlexW

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Since people are throwing around fixes, here's something I've been thinking about. When I put 4 Heavy Laser Cannon Scyks in a list, I have 8 points left over. I wish there were a 2-point mod that did something nifty so I could fill in those points. As it stands, Laetin, Serissu, or 2 Stealth Devices are usually what I turn to.

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Since people are throwing around fixes, here's something I've been thinking about. When I put 4 Heavy Laser Cannon Scyks in a list, I have 8 points left over. I wish there were a 2-point mod that did something nifty so I could fill in those points. As it stands, Laetin, Serissu, or 2 Stealth Devices are usually what I turn to.

Curious (while having 2 Scyk self and using them as ion or stress flankers; and having noted you like Scyks and do not just repudiate them), how much success did you have with that configuration? Is it fun to fly for a casual game?

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Since people are throwing around fixes, here's something I've been thinking about. When I put 4 Heavy Laser Cannon Scyks in a list, I have 8 points left over. I wish there were a 2-point mod that did something nifty so I could fill in those points. As it stands, Laetin, Serissu, or 2 Stealth Devices are usually what I turn to.

Curious (while having 2 Scyk self and using them as ion or stress flankers; and having noted you like Scyks and do not just repudiate them), how much success did you have with that configuration? Is it fun to fly for a casual game?

 

I only have 2 Scyks as well, so while I've technically "built the list," I haven't actually flown it. I'm quite curious about it, though. There's a thread in the squad building sub-forum where I discuss some of my thoughts on the list. https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/197401-4-hlc-scyks/

 

I'm quite eager to try it out, but it's a lot of money for just a single list. And my gaming buddies keep reminding me, "Hold off on buying more Scyks until you see the fix because you know it will come with another Scyk."

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I say use the Mod Slot for the fix. After all, Scyks notoriously did not have much room for tweaks and modifications, so it makes sense for it's fix to take up the slot.

 

 

the scyks and every s&v craft were ntorious for being tweaked to owner pleasure bizzarely.

not TIE staple.

 

The wookipedia article says how they have room for very little, but it also says their weapon mount can handle just about anything, with pilots often switching out damage weapons for ones they could find elsewhere.

 

At the very least, it should not have to pay 2 points for the ability to add a weapon system. It should just go along the lines of the Outrider, where you replace your primary. (for ordnance, they'd have to figure something out)

 

But this is FFG, and they may have the ability to retcon or create ships and variants. They could do anything they want if they want to make the little guy viable.

Edited by Vulf

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The "heavy" scyk could hold more than the normal scyk in galaxies. It could possibly carry the power plant and caps necessary for a heavy laser and it seems it often was. The engines and reactors were supposed to be good enough that the extra draw and weight wouldn't affect performance.

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What do mean when you say "game-wise"? Comparing the Scyk to the Tie? The difference between the Tie's 3 hull and the 2 hull and 1 shield of the Syck is one point in terms of modification cost. The Targeting Computer is 2 points in modification cost. You can look at it as the Scyk has been discounted 1 point from an upgraded Tie.

While I really like the comparisons MJ did in his analysis and I think they are useful as rough rule of thumb comparisons, I don't believe they should be used to determine fixes or as a hard scale to compare costs. As an example how much more beneficial is a shield over a hull? Crits show up on dice 1/8 of the time but there are game mechanics that increase their probability. What point cost do you assign to Howlrunner's reroll vs a Targeting Computer?

FFG may very well have some alogarithm that determines the added value of shields vs hull that's not factored into MJ's numbers. Take for instance the matchups in the core set. Two Ties vs 1 X-wing. One more HP for the Imps, better maneuver dials plus an evade and barrel roll on the action bar. Yet if the point totals are the same the Rebel player can win.

What I was trying to get across, not very successfully, is that a lot of the fixes called for or recommended actually alter the 'essence', if you will, of the ship. A Syck that's 2 points less becomes a souped up Tie with a different dial. FFG has a tough job balancing ships in the game. Not only do the ships have to be playable but new ships coming into the game can't be over powered and they have to be different enough from the existing ships for us to buy them. There are different ways to balance the game. Ship cost and dials, whether or not pilots can take EPTs, what point cost to assign to a pilot's special ability and what cost to assign to that pilot are just some that I think FFG uses. I think the cost of a base M3 is pretty much spot on until you try making it into a flying cannon.

What I mean gamewise and fluffwise:

Fluffwise: how a ship is depicted in source material.

Gamewise: how a ship is depicted in the x-wing game ignoring background source material.

The dial is a far more important component of a ship that affects the points than you think. Also mods like targeting computer and engine upgrade etc are generally more expensive than if the ship had the action or stat natively.

Edited by Hantheman

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