Players becoming frustrated with the Force

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

There's also a fundamental disconnect in trying to hard-code the characters from fiction into an RPG system.

Vader doesn't block Han's blaster shots on Bespin because he successfully rolls to do so, he blocks those shots because the "author" said he did, and that the character was capable of it, and because it's a very different story if Han kills Vader on Bespin...

"Little Annie" doesn't have a pod racer because he invested the points and is therefore "not a beginning character", he has a pod racer because of how the script is written.

[Lareg 367]

There's also a fundamental disconnect in trying to hard-code the characters from fiction into an RPG system.

Vader doesn't block Han's blaster shots on Bespin because he successfully rolls to do so, he blocks those shots because the "author" said he did, and that the character was capable of it, and because it's a very different story if Han kills Vader on Bespin...

"Little Annie" doesn't have a pod racer because he invested the points and is therefore "not a beginning character", he has a pod racer because of how the script is written.

I don't see the point of  this post: we all know that, but  we are trying to interpret those actions as results of rolls. And what it would take for a normal charcter to get similar results. otherwise the entire thread is useless. 

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

 

There's also a fundamental disconnect in trying to hard-code the characters from fiction into an RPG system.

Vader doesn't block Han's blaster shots on Bespin because he successfully rolls to do so, he blocks those shots because the "author" said he did, and that the character was capable of it, and because it's a very different story if Han kills Vader on Bespin...

"Little Annie" doesn't have a pod racer because he invested the points and is therefore "not a beginning character", he has a pod racer because of how the script is written.

 

I don't see the point of  this post: we all know that, but  we are trying to interpret those actions as results of rolls. And what it would take for a normal charcter to get similar results. otherwise the entire thread is useless. 

 

 

Looked at that way, it makes more sense as an exercise.  I apologize if I was stating the obvious -- just long ago lost patience for the "Han Solo would be a level X class Y" debates...

[Lareg 367]

I agree about the exercise. But it helps showing different point of views on how the Force mechanic works and find an acceptable solution inside the game constraints. As for statting the main characters i find it intereseting and surpèrising because there are so many different views of them and you can get  an interesting perspective on the game. For example i was surpèrised when Ghostfoman posted a build for TPM Obi Wan with only 150xp and it made total sense.

[whafrog 10,384]

For example i was surpèrised when Ghostfoman posted a build for TPM Obi Wan with only 150xp and it made total sense.

 

...from a certain point of view.  It requires you to limit your view to only the immediate movie context, and to completely ignore the "world inside the movie" context in which that character moves.

[Rakaydos 4,236]

 

For example i was surpèrised when Ghostfoman posted a build for TPM Obi Wan with only 150xp and it made total sense.

 

...from a certain point of view.  It requires you to limit your view to only the immediate movie context, and to completely ignore the "world inside the movie" context in which that character moves.

 

You mean all the Legends that have been discarded?

[oatesatm 11]

I wasn't able to read through all of this, so I may be doubling up on what others have pointed out ... but a clue to the mindset of your PC's was that he stated a Jedi could have easily tipped over the crates, to me, that sounds like he equates himself as a Jedi because he has some connection to the force and it's powers.  He is right, a Jedi probably easily could have done that, but PC's (especially not Knight level) are neither Jedi's nor that close to being such.  There is no Jedi temple, Jedi training, apprentices, and so forth in the time frame these books take place in ... so they would be way behind in their training anyways.

 

Something you could try in giving out XP, if you're intent on giving more so they progress quicker, tie it in to how they are using their abilities and force powers so there is a narrative to it rather than an arbitrary hand out just to pacify them.  "Sure, you were not able to tip over those crates, but the fact that you tried added to your experience .... here's your 15 XP and an additional 15 for X / Y / Z"  Of course, if you do that with force users, you'll have to do the same with the other players when they find ways to use their abilities.  They'll be able to level up quicker, but will encourage them to do so within the game and it's opportunities.

Edited January 5, 2016 by oatesatm

[Voice 194]

 

 

For example i was surpèrised when Ghostfoman posted a build for TPM Obi Wan with only 150xp and it made total sense.

 

...from a certain point of view.  It requires you to limit your view to only the immediate movie context, and to completely ignore the "world inside the movie" context in which that character moves.

 

You mean all the Legends that have been discarded?

 

Probably more like the various things that are obliquely alluded to, but not expressly shown in the films.

'Here have your lightsaber back...again.  Stop losing it.'

'I had to rescue you.  Only after I had already rescued *you*.'

etc.

 

Or the things treated like inside jokes.

Why does Obi-Wan hate flying?  He seems perfectly competent at it.

'Aggressive negotiations.'

etc.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Voice

[Rakaydos 4,236]

 

 

 

For example i was surpèrised when Ghostfoman posted a build for TPM Obi Wan with only 150xp and it made total sense.

 

...from a certain point of view.  It requires you to limit your view to only the immediate movie context, and to completely ignore the "world inside the movie" context in which that character moves.

 

You mean all the Legends that have been discarded?

 

Probably more like the various things that are obliquely alluded to, but not expressly shown in the films.

'Here have your lightsaber back...again.  Stop losing it.'

'I had to rescue you.  Only after I had already rescued *you*.'

etc.

 

Or the things treated like inside jokes.

Why does Obi-Wan hate flying?  He seems perfectly competent at it.

'Aggressive negotiations.'

etc.

 

Attack of the Clones is at least 300 XP, for sure. Because the campain started in Phantom Menace, at Knight Level, then there was a timeskip.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Rakaydos

[Garran 485]

There's a disconnect between the "movie characters aren't beginners" rationale and the presentation in the game material of starting characters as competent in their field. Moreover, if you're going to use a particular setting for a game, going down the "NPCs are all cooler than you" path isn't a great way to foster enthusiasm.

As with a couple of other posters, I feel that the requirement to flip destiny points to use dark side pips effectively hamstrings it as an option, even though it's supposed to be one that the PCs make at least some use of during play, and it doesn't help that it often puts Force-using characters in the position of needing to flip DPs to use their abilities at all, while everyone else only spends DPs to use their abilities a bit better than usual.

Dropping the requirement to flip a DP to use dark side points also opens up the option of allowing a DP flip to roll an extra force die (effectively upgrading the check, just like everyone else does).

Conflict is fine (it's the story thing that's actually supposed to matter in all this) and strain isn't much of a problem (it comes and goes quickly anyway), so they can both stay.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Garran

[Kyrinthic 14]

Force balance is hard.  Probably too hard.  But it swings the other way after a while.  its a little like dnd or the like with wizards starting too weak and ending too strong.  It could really be better done.

 

The basic issue is that a level 5 skill costs 75 exp.  You are pretty much top of the line with that.  Even starting, a level 2 skill with a 4 stat, quite common and easy to do for almost any pool or class, is a very solid skill pool to expect reliable strong results.

 

Comparatively, a jedi has to pick.  If you take sage, the cheapest way to get a second force point, you get skills with social and knowledge aspects, and dont even get lightsabers as a trained skill.  This is fine for an actual sage type character, and the second force point is still 70 points deep in the tree, the second one in the tree is another 65 on top of that.  But if you are trying to build a character who is skilled with a lightsaber and uses force powers to compliment that, you need to pick a different tree, and the force point (if there is one, some of the stronger lightsaber trees dont get a force point at all), you need to dip deeper in the tree, usually 100+ points in, and frequently in a direction that does not lead to the best lightsaber talents.

 

Then, on top of that, you need to put points into the force powers themselves.  Even with a mentor bonus (not always, or even commonly, available), you are looking at 15 points to move an item of any real size, and doing anything actually offensive with the power starts at 30 points.

 

Next, force dice are unfair.  Seriously, you are going to roll black more than white, there are more black sides on the dice, and while that is in theory evened out somewhat by there being more double whites, most players only have the ability to usefully spend a single point early on anyhow, since its not a good bet to buy skills that require two.  So until you get a second force dice, you are more likely than not going to take strain and conflict for even using the most mundane force options. Even with two force dice, you will see double dark dots come up far more than you would like.

 

Anything resembling a jedi is so far from buildable as a start character it isnt even funny.  Knight level play helps somewhat, but 150 is not enough experience to get a second force die, lightsaber skills, and force powers, never mind 3 force dice.  Not even close.  Pick 2, maybe, if you dont also want any skills.

 

so, telling a jedi to 'get good' is silly.  A jedi feeling character really starts to be buildable around 200-250 exp. 

 

On the opposite side, after about 350-400 points, when a jedi can take a lightsaber tree, and a force dice tree, and be looking at 3-4 force points, and the ability to invest in force powers, he starts to be pretty amazing. That smuggler on the other hand, is still rolling his 5 skill/4 ability skill that he filled out at several hundred exp ago, and a bunch of new talents doesnt really change what he can do comparative to what the jedi can now accomplish.

 

If you are playing knight level, and want to be good with a lightsaber, pick a force power or two to use for flavor, but dont expect them to be usable in any reliable way.  Or build a sage, get a second force dice and invest in a power or two, but get one of the above lightsaber guys to stand near you in combat. 

[Kael 1,865]

When talking about the movie characters I think it's important to remember which set of movie character this game represents. The characters in the PT and the OT are not the same type of characters. The PT makes use of highly experienced characters. Characters that have been through some stuff. The OT on the other hand makes use of beginner characters. The path to using the Force in this game mirrors Luke, not Anikan and Obi Wan. But that's ok since this game was built with the OT in mind. 

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

When talking about the movie characters I think it's important to remember which set of movie character this game represents. The characters in the PT and the OT are not the same type of characters. The PT makes use of highly experienced characters. Characters that have been through some stuff. The OT on the other hand makes use of beginner characters. The path to using the Force in this game mirrors Luke, not Anikan and Obi Wan. But that's ok since this game was built with the OT in mind. 

 

While Luke is a "newb", I'd hardly call Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, etc the same. 

[Lordbiscuit 566]

 

When talking about the movie characters I think it's important to remember which set of movie character this game represents. The characters in the PT and the OT are not the same type of characters. The PT makes use of highly experienced characters. Characters that have been through some stuff. The OT on the other hand makes use of beginner characters. The path to using the Force in this game mirrors Luke, not Anikan and Obi Wan. But that's ok since this game was built with the OT in mind. 

 

While Luke is a "newb", I'd hardly call Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, etc the same. 

 

It depends on your point of view really. Characters don't really escalate in toughness and could easily be "newbs" as far as the system is aware. Because to them the events of the movie might be their first real challenge that has forced them to change their life. They might all be the result of a well padded backstory to give them great motivations.

[Kael 1,865]

 

When talking about the movie characters I think it's important to remember which set of movie character this game represents. The characters in the PT and the OT are not the same type of characters. The PT makes use of highly experienced characters. Characters that have been through some stuff. The OT on the other hand makes use of beginner characters. The path to using the Force in this game mirrors Luke, not Anikan and Obi Wan. But that's ok since this game was built with the OT in mind. 

 

While Luke is a "newb", I'd hardly call Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, etc the same. 

 

 

None of them are actually better than Luke at most things. Sure they have awesome back stories but when faced with challenges they perform about as well as Luke does. Thus, overall, I consider them all to be roughly starting characters. 

Lando is an exception, but only because he's introduced much later in the story and would have benefited from XP boost to keep him on par with the rest of the party.

[Rakaydos 4,236]

 

When talking about the movie characters I think it's important to remember which set of movie character this game represents. The characters in the PT and the OT are not the same type of characters. The PT makes use of highly experienced characters. Characters that have been through some stuff. The OT on the other hand makes use of beginner characters. The path to using the Force in this game mirrors Luke, not Anikan and Obi Wan. But that's ok since this game was built with the OT in mind. 

 

While Luke is a "newb", I'd hardly call Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, etc the same. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/3ysh48/fail_forward_how_han_solo_failed_almost_every/

 

A New Hope

• Han tries to impress Kenobi with his Kessel Run performance, fails.
• Han tries to negotiate with Greedo, fails.
• Han tries to somehow outdraw the guy with the gun trained on him, succeeds!
• Han tries to spot the moon-sized base, then tries to free his ship from its tractor beam, fails, fails.
• Han tries to go undetected on a small, closed ship the empire knew he was hiding on, succeeds!
• Han tries to bluff his way through an explanation of the blaster fire in the prison block, fails.
• Han tries to stop the garbage compactor, fails.
• Han tries to make a stand against the stormtroopers in the hallway, fails and has to run away.
• Han declares he is coming out of nowhere to rescue Luke from imminent disaster in the middle of a battle, succeeds!
• Han fires on Darth Vader's TIE fighter squadron, fails forward.

The Empire Strikes Back

• Han fires on imperial scout drone trying to only wound it, critically succeeds, destroying it entirely so no data can be recovered.
• Han decides to go search for Luke when the odds of survival are 725 to 1, succeeds!
• Han attempts a rudimentary jump to hyperspace, fails.
• Han attempts to navigate an asteroid field when the odds of survival are 3,720 to 1, succeeds!
• Han tries to find a safe asteroid to land on, fails forward.
• Han attempts to charm a princess way out his league who said she'd rather kiss a wookiee, succeeds!
• Han tries to fly directly at a Star Destroyer, succeeds!
• Han tries to think of a safe place to hide out at, comes up with Lando Calrissian, fails forward.
• Han fires on Darth Vader, fails utterly.
• Han is captured, tortured and frozen in carbonite, uncertain if any of this requires a roll.

Return of the Jedi

• Han, completely blind, tries to locate the source of Jabba's voice, fails.
• Han, still almost completely blind, fires at a tentacle engaged in close combat with his friend Lando, succeeds!
• Han accidentally kills Boba Fett
• Han tries to sneak up on a pair of stormtroopers on Endor, fails.
• Han tries to warn Chewie about the net trap in the forest, fails.
• Han tries to hotwire the door controls to the shield generator base, critically fails, activating yet more doors.

And here are the counter-examples, where Han succeeded on a relatively straightforward roll:

[iV] Han, Luke and Chewie successfully get the jump on the imperials in the prison block

[iV] Han is able to destroy the TIE fighters pursuing them

[VI] Han impersonates an imperial At-ST walker pilot to gain access to Endor base

Edited January 6, 2016 by Rakaydos

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

If one only goes by cherry-picking movie moments, and not on the backstories or general qualities of the characters... then sure.

 

On the other hand, Han is established as an experienced smuggler with a long history, both directly in the movies and in the other media, and pulls off the near-impossible in flying the Falcon unscathed through the asteroid field while other pilots in far smaller and more agile ships just get themselves killed.

Edited January 6, 2016 by MaxKilljoy

[Lordbiscuit 566]

If one only goes by cherry-picking movie moments, and not on the backstories or general qualities of the characters... then sure.

 

Aye, well I guess thats just the thing. None of us is necessarily correct nor wrong, because both methods are correct. One can have them as knight level, starter or custom exp and it still should work. It's just a matter of effort.

 

Sometimes, I wish my DM could throw 400 exp at me so I could create a seasoned adventurer instead of insisting on knight level values; but then I like creating technically complex characters, even if alternatives are available! XD

[Kael 1,865]

If one only goes by cherry-picking movie moments, and not on the backstories or general qualities of the characters... then sure.

 

On the other hand, Han is established as an experienced smuggler with a long history, both directly in the movies and in the other media, and pulls off the near-impossible in flying the Falcon unscathed through the asteroid field while other pilots in far smaller and more agile ships just get themselves killed.

 

While the line incorporates outside source material to fill in the universe the game itself is attempting to replicate the OT feel as we see it in the movies. All of Han's deeds, as such, can also just be a rich background that a player submitted. What we see of Han on screen though doesn't paint him as being all that much better than Luke. He's not any better than Luke at taking out Stormtroopers. And he didn't exactly do a better job of shooting down TIE fighters. So overall he's portrayed as being roughly even to Luke. Sure he has a much richer back story than Luke but much richer backstories doesn't always mean more experienced character in gaming terms. I've been in games where some people turn in no back story while another person writes 10 pages of it and both characters are still starting characters. Han and Luke can easily fall into this dynamic.  

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

 

If one only goes by cherry-picking movie moments, and not on the backstories or general qualities of the characters... then sure.

 

On the other hand, Han is established as an experienced smuggler with a long history, both directly in the movies and in the other media, and pulls off the near-impossible in flying the Falcon unscathed through the asteroid field while other pilots in far smaller and more agile ships just get themselves killed.

 

While the line incorporates outside source material to fill in the universe the game itself is attempting to replicate the OT feel as we see it in the movies. All of Han's deeds, as such, can also just be a rich background that a player submitted. What we see of Han on screen though doesn't paint him as being all that much better than Luke. He's not any better than Luke at taking out Stormtroopers. And he didn't exactly do a better job of shooting down TIE fighters. So overall he's portrayed as being roughly even to Luke. Sure he has a much richer back story than Luke but much richer backstories doesn't always mean more experienced character in gaming terms. I've been in games where some people turn in no back story while another person writes 10 pages of it and both characters are still starting characters. Han and Luke can easily fall into this dynamic.  

 

 

Yeah, sorry, not buying it.  The movie is not an RPG campaign.

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry, not buying it.  The movie is not an RPG campaign.

 

 

The game itself though is clearly based on the movie. And this is thread specifically about the Force not being what they see in the movie (and tv show). So the movie is relevant for this discussion. While the movie is not a perfect fit, it's clear that FFG was trying to recreate the OT movie experience as opposed to the PT movie experience. 

 

But whether or not you buy it is kinda moot. I wasn't making the point because you'd buy it. I made my inital point to illustrate that this game is based on a different type of framework than what we see of Jedi in the PT and TCW. This game isn't based on what we see there. It is instead based on what we see in the OT. In many regards it does fail to some extent to represent what we see in PT and the TCW from a starter character POV. But it does a very good job of representing the OT as starting characters. While you may not think Han was a starting character there is still nothing in the movie that shows him being all that much better than Luke. His higher level of skill is talked about, but never truly shown. And being as how the greater bulk of Han's background is up for a rewrite (since Disney is doing it's own new movie on Han's past) anything that isn't in the movies is up for grabs on whether or not they truly happened to Han. So his level of experience that exceeds Luke ... is honestly up for debate. 

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

I always thought the movies alone made it clear that Han was an older, more experienced, more capable, and frankly far less naive character than Luke at the start.  (Two small examples... Han shoots first, and Luke's dead if Han doesn't have a change of heart at the end and come back to join in the attack on the Death Star.) 

 

But that's neither here nor there on the question of force user / Jedi characters, which "era" the game is trying to model, and whether it does it well.

 

 

As for me, after ~30 years of gaming, including Star Wars going back to the very first edition of the WEG d6 game, personally, I've had my fill of "growing into a real force user" stories. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by MaxKilljoy