Players becoming frustrated with the Force

[Vonkrieg 0]

So we have played five sessions over the past four weeks and during this time the Force has not been with my players. Of the four players two of them are force users and neither of them have successfully used to the force to accomplish anything.  they roll their one force die and get a darkside point. I explained to them that they can use the darkside to accomplish their goals but they are becoming increasingly turned off of playing the game.  They are not asking to do a lot, for example the Guardian wanted to push over some crates to slow down some stormtroopers and rolled the dice and got one darkside point. He finally gave in and used the darkside then complained the whole game that in none of the movies, shows, book or comics did the Jedi have such a difficult time moving a simple box. While he is wrong to a degree (Luke had a hard time moving his lightsaber before he got some training.) but it did get me to thinking that maybe it is a little more difficult that it should be. Yes, people want balance between the classes so one player does not take over the game, but thematically speaking the Jedi and Sith WERE more powerful.

 

Should I be more lax in the rolling of the dice and let the players accomplish more, or should they just suck it up and deal with the fact that unlike the movies, they are just not that cool?

 

 

[Vondy 1,460]

Are all the characters force-users?

 

If so,l the balancing issue is moot and you won't get much guff for being more laxed.

 

In my game, I allow them to use dark-side points at a cost of one (1) strain but do not automatically conflict.

 

Conflict only gets applied if they use the Force - light or dark points - for evil / selfish / dark-sider ends.

[kaosoe 7,573]

First, encourage the Force users to invest in the Sage or Seer careers. 2 Force Rating talents in one tree can take you from bumbling acolyte to competent wizard with less effort.

 

Second, have them check out the Sense and Enhance Force powers. More specifically, the upgrades that allow you to commit your Force die for ongoing effects. My group is a big fan of the Sense upgrades. 2 upgrades on combat checks made against them (once per round) for as long as they have their Force die committed is a huge boon. They feel like Yoda being jumped by 2 Clone troopers on Kashyyyk. Those abilities are great until you get the Force rating to do some of the more active abilities.

[Kael 1,865]

It may be helpful to remind the player that the Jedi we see in the movies are not starter PC's but characters with at least 150 XP in them, which is enough to get to a FR of 2 if you plan well. Though most of the Jedi we see are clearly well beyond the 150 Knight level play recommendation and as such their Force checks are easily made without drawing on the darkside. 

 

As such I don't believe using the Force is more difficult than it should be. I find the Force difficulty level to be pretty good. But I do think that if you expect being able to replicate movie level Jedi actions with starting level characters you are going to be disappointed. 

 

I wouldn't be lax personally. If you are lax with the Jedi then you also need to find ways to compensate the non Jedi, otherwise you're just playing favorites with your players. It's not that the characters in this game aren't cool as the ones in the movie. It's that this game requires you to build to movie cool. 

 

I might consider increasing XP gains so they can buy their way to higher Force Rating faster. This, to me, is the most fair way to do it as it solves the Force problem while keeping all players on the same playing field. Otherwise being lax may upset the non Force users who could (and rightly so) feel that you are favoring the Jedi rolls. 

[dougansf 132]

Don't change a thing.  Use the Conflict rules as written.  Use the dice mechanic of flipping dark pips as written.

 

Kaose hit it on the head, you want to use the Force, get more FR ASAP.  No one is surprised when they fail on a skill check when they only have 1 Green.  Same thing, except Force Powers have the option to still succeed by taking a little Conflict.

 

Once they get up to FR 3 or 4, Move and other advanced Powers become much more reliable, without flipping.  Until then, you want Powers and Talents that let you commit dice or roll FR along with a skill.  Sense, Enhance, Influence, and Foresee.

[Vonkrieg 0]

I may increase the xp as mentioned. As far as the Jedi out shining the non Force users, this has not been a problem, quite the opposite really. When our smuggler tries to use a skill to do something his success rate seems to be 90% as skills seem much more reliable to use for less xp.  So far the two Force users have not tried anything over the top such as moving a star fighter around, but as the case last night, using the force to push a button to close the blast doors to prevent more stormtroopers from entering the hanger, should not require the use of the Darkside or cause Morale Conflict.  Instead of using the Darkside points they look to the Smuggler to shoot the door controls resulting in the door closing as well as two advantage.

 

But as it seems that most of the replies feel that the rules work as written I will try to get the group to hang in a little longer and increase the xp so they can fast track through the talents so that they can have 2 dice to roll.

[Daeglan 5,950]

So we have played five sessions over the past four weeks and during this time the Force has not been with my players. Of the four players two of them are force users and neither of them have successfully used to the force to accomplish anything.  they roll their one force die and get a darkside point. I explained to them that they can use the darkside to accomplish their goals but they are becoming increasingly turned off of playing the game.  They are not asking to do a lot, for example the Guardian wanted to push over some crates to slow down some stormtroopers and rolled the dice and got one darkside point. He finally gave in and used the darkside then complained the whole game that in none of the movies, shows, book or comics did the Jedi have such a difficult time moving a simple box. While he is wrong to a degree (Luke had a hard time moving his lightsaber before he got some training.) but it did get me to thinking that maybe it is a little more difficult that it should be. Yes, people want balance between the classes so one player does not take over the game, but thematically speaking the Jedi and Sith WERE more powerful.

 

Should I be more lax in the rolling of the dice and let the players accomplish more, or should they just suck it up and deal with the fact that unlike the movies, they are just not that cool?

Well Did he ever watch Empire Strikes back? cause Luke had a hard time moving his lightsaber. Also all the things he is referencing are what I would consider knight level characters. 

[Vulf 911]

They are not Jedis yet.

 

Force rating 1 is weak in the force. Force rating 3 is Jedi level.

 

Tell them to get good.

[dougansf 132]

So far the two Force users have not tried anything over the top such as moving a star fighter around, but as the case last night, using the force to push a button to close the blast doors to prevent more stormtroopers from entering the hanger, should not require the use of the Darkside or cause Morale Conflict.  Instead of using the Darkside points they look to the Smuggler to shoot the door controls resulting in the door closing as well as two advantage.

 

It can help to narrate out the situation a little.

 

Force User tries to shut the door to prevent enemies from approaching.  They roll black, so they struggle for control because of the fear of more enemies.  Do they tap into that fear to make it happen, or do they refuse to give into their darker nature?

 

That's inner conflict.  That's the decision that defines a person.  Or at least their Morality for that session.  

 

We had this same problem with our Ewok Jedi, trying to use Move to put out a fire.  He rolled all Dark, and I pointed out that Ewoks likely have an instinctual fear of fire (as most living things do, but more so on a forest moon).  He liked the more personalized nature of the explanation, over the raw dice mechanics.

[whafrog 10,384]

kaosoe has the right idea, tell them they can get more consist value at lower FRs by focusing on the abilities that let them Commit a die or abilities that enhance existing skills.  After all, this is basically what Luke and Anakin were doing in their early un-trained years before they knew what the Force was.  As a GM, I'd let them respec their Force powers, especially as I've seen how happy my players are with Enhance and Sense.  My Enforcer player is having a great time since he finally maxed the Enhance tree, it's very potent; and the Ace player is developing the left side of Sense and very happy with it (getting to narrate the enemy's Despair is a good moment...).

 

Also, they are making too big a deal of the dark pips.  Just MHO (and I know others feel quite differently), but I don't view using the dark pips as "calling on the dark side".  Instead, I view it as the price the PC pays to *not* call on the dark side...they spend some Strain to focus and stay on track.  Then again, I deal with Conflict a bit differently from RAW so YMMV...

Edited December 30, 2015 by whafrog

[Kael 1,865]

I may increase the xp as mentioned. As far as the Jedi out shining the non Force users, this has not been a problem, quite the opposite really. When our smuggler tries to use a skill to do something his success rate seems to be 90% as skills seem much more reliable to use for less xp.  So far the two Force users have not tried anything over the top such as moving a star fighter around, but as the case last night, using the force to push a button to close the blast doors to prevent more stormtroopers from entering the hanger, should not require the use of the Darkside or cause Morale Conflict.  Instead of using the Darkside points they look to the Smuggler to shoot the door controls resulting in the door closing as well as two advantage.

 

But as it seems that most of the replies feel that the rules work as written I will try to get the group to hang in a little longer and increase the xp so they can fast track through the talents so that they can have 2 dice to roll.

 

It's not that thy would outshine .... it's that being lax with the Jedi rolls is favoritism. And that can lead to other problems down the road. If the Jedi are given a break on their Force rolls then the non Jedi may start to get alienated when their failures aren't somehow mitigated by the GM. 

 

Also you can't compare the Smuggler skill rolls to the Force rolls. The Smuggler is getting more dice for his roll. If the Smuggler was only rolling one die he wouldn't likely be as successful as he currently is. Skills are more reliable to use than the Force precisely because they typically have better dice pools to draw from. 

 

Its also a matter of luck. My starting PC succeed at most of his Force rolls without relying on the darkside. Their experience is going to vary of course from table to table of course. But luck is a huge factor in this. 

[Vonkrieg 0]

 

So far the two Force users have not tried anything over the top such as moving a star fighter around, but as the case last night, using the force to push a button to close the blast doors to prevent more stormtroopers from entering the hanger, should not require the use of the Darkside or cause Morale Conflict.  Instead of using the Darkside points they look to the Smuggler to shoot the door controls resulting in the door closing as well as two advantage.

 

It can help to narrate out the situation a little.

 

Force User tries to shut the door to prevent enemies from approaching.  They roll black, so they struggle for control because of the fear of more enemies.  Do they tap into that fear to make it happen, or do they refuse to give into their darker nature?

 

That's inner conflict.  That's the decision that defines a person.  Or at least their Morality for that session.  

 

We had this same problem with our Ewok Jedi, trying to use Move to put out a fire.  He rolled all Dark, and I pointed out that Ewoks likely have an instinctual fear of fire (as most living things do, but more so on a forest moon).  He liked the more personalized nature of the explanation, over the raw dice mechanics.

 

 

I try to do this a best I can, but one of the players has literally rolled only Darkside points, and neither of them have rolled Lightside points when it has made any real difference.  The Guardian has at least rolled Lightside while doing training exercises.  While this is just a matter of luck of the roll, it is can be less than fun for those involved.  But they both do well with the Lightsaber in combat (they both have acquired training sabers in the session before last) but that goes back to skills being more reliable.

[TalosX 184]

My advice would be based on your game specifically.  Vondy already asked, but are all the players Force-users?  It's pretty important.  You could allow them to use Dark Side points on force rolls without auto granting Conflict, but only if they're all Force-users.  The reason being you unbalance the game for non-Force-users if you do.  The RAW is there to keep force sensitives from ruining the game for everyone else.

 

Also, your players are incorrect about the comparisons.  A character with a FR of 1 is a beginning Initiate.  They would have problems moving a cup of water, let alone some crates.  Look how long it took Luke to pull his saber from the snow when the wampa was headed towards him for a meal (several seconds of concentration).  I know it's frustrating, but the rewards when they do work are worth the effort.

[Vonkrieg 0]

As a GM, I'd let them respec their Force powers, especially as I've seen how happy my players are with Enhance and Sense.  My Enforcer player is with having finally maxed the Enhance tree, it's very potent; and the Ace player is developing the left side of Sense and very happy with it (getting to narrate the enemy's Despair is a good moment...).

 

I may talk to them about this, as it may help.  We are all new to the system, now that they have a small amount of experience with the way the game works, they may spend their points differently.

[Vonkrieg 0]

The group is made up of a Smuggler, a Technician, a Guardian and a Sentinel.  Though I feel the Sentinel should be less bothered by the use of Darkside points, she is also the one that has rolled nothing but Darkside.

[dougansf 132]

I try to do this a best I can, but one of the players has literally rolled only Darkside points, and neither of them have rolled Lightside points when it has made any real difference.  The Guardian has at least rolled Lightside while doing training exercises.  While this is just a matter of luck of the roll, it is can be less than fun for those involved.  But they both do well with the Lightsaber in combat (they both have acquired training sabers in the session before last) but that goes back to skills being more reliable.

I get that, I really do.  I came into this game from Saga edition, and we changed our characters over.  I was a "Force Wizard" and tried to use the Force for everything.  But Force and Destiny hadn't come out yet (heck, neither had Age of Rebellion).  There was no Conflict system, just roll your dice and hope for the best.  As frustrating as it might be for them now, consider how bad it was when you roll FR 3 and come up all black, and refuse to use them.

 

Take a look at this: http://anydice.com/program/7520

 

At FR 1, the odds are almost 60% that you won't get any white.  Honestly, your small sampling reflects that pretty well.

FR 2 your chances are significantly better, you're more likely to get some white result than all black.  But all black is still the largest single possible result.

FR 3 is when you're more likely to get white more often then all black.

[Kael 1,865]

My advice would be based on your game specifically.  Vondy already asked, but are all the players Force-users?  It's pretty important.  You could allow them to use Dark Side points on force rolls without auto granting Conflict, but only if they're all Force-users.  The reason being you unbalance the game for non-Force-users if you do.  The RAW is there to keep force sensitives from ruining the game for everyone else.

 

Also, your players are incorrect about the comparisons.  A character with a FR of 1 is a beginning Initiate.  They would have problems moving a cup of water, let alone some crates.  Look how long it took Luke to pull his saber from the snow when the wampa was headed towards him for a meal (several seconds of concentration).  I know it's frustrating, but the rewards when they do work are worth the effort.

 

2 players are Force users 2 are not. It's in his first paragraph. 

[Nimsim 671]

I think the bigger issue at play is that a starting character using any of the skills can be quite competent right away, with 2 Proficiency and 2 Ability dice easily acquired during character creation. That character is going to wreck some ****, and can also choose to get an extra 2500 starting credits and invest in a really powerful starting weapon that they can use masterfully. Compare this to a starting character who has little to no recourse if he wants to start out being able to use the force as their cool thing. The cheapest they can possibly get this is by picking seer, rushing to get Force Rating 2, and buying a 10xp basic Force ability. That will cost 70XP, leaving them with 10-50xp left to spend on characteristics and anything else. Most character building advice has you spending at least half of your starting xp on characteristics, so you're going to end up with a sub-optimal character when it comes to attempting skill rolls.

 

Basically, without spelling it out, the book is saying that the consistent and powerful use of Force Powers is not open to starting characters. Contrast this to the fact that consistent and powerful use of skills and equipment IS available to starting characters. It's easy to see how player expectations can become confused/disappointed.

 

As other people have said, your players can counter this by choosing Force Powers that just require a committed die, but that really limits their options quite a bit (after all, Move and Influence are easily the most iconic force powers not counting those used by bad guys). Also, I agree that your player seems to be over-reacting to having to use Dark Side pips when they roll them. They get to roll a d10 at the end of the session with an average of 5.5, meaning they can use 5.5 dark side points on average without worrying about Morality (and even then they're going to have a big buffer in how low Morality can go).

 

That said, my advice for you would be to 1) let players declare how to spend their pips AFTER rolling rather than making them declare before rolling (e.g. a player can activate the Move power planning to throw a big crate but doesn't roll enough pips for its Silhouette and instead flings its lid at someone) and 2) add narrative flourish to the use of dark side pips. Go ahead and treat the use of dark side pips similarly to if the player rolled a Triumph: one of those crates is violently flung at a stormtrooper and takes him out; the player Influences someone so strongly that they become filled with passion about the lie they now believe and act on that passion; the player foresees something that leads him to a physical reward in the upcoming encounter such as knowing the weakpoint of a bridge or seeing the passcode to a weapon locker filled with grenades. Let the dark side tempt the characters because they know that it will give them a powerful narrative reward. This is also a good way to encourage characters with high Force Ratings to still spend black pips, because they'll know it will give them something extra. Basically, have players get the feeling that the Dark Side wants to take care of them and help them out, manifested in displays of extreme violence, passion, or ties to the material.

[Vonkrieg 0]

I agree that they are over reacting, we have read the rules and it does not really seem that bad, but the idea of using the Darkside seems off to them from a role-play perspective. 

 

I think things will get better in the long run, they are just unhappy right now.

[Kael 1,865]

I agree that they are over reacting, we have read the rules and it does not really seem that bad, but the idea of using the Darkside seems off to them from a role-play perspective. 

 

I think things will get better in the long run, they are just unhappy right now.

 

They don't get darkside. They gain conflict which can lead to the darkside but doesn't have to. Big difference. 

[Nimsim 671]

I agree that they are over reacting, we have read the rules and it does not really seem that bad, but the idea of using the Darkside seems off to them from a role-play perspective. 

 

I think things will get better in the long run, they are just unhappy right now.

 

As the poster above said, they aren't actually using the Dark Side. They are tapping into their emotions to use the force. Using a dark side point is like having a player using up themselves in order to tap into the force. The effect of this is to cause actual strain to their mind and body. Rolling dark side points means that they are not able to calm their mind enough to just focus, and that they can only achieve what they want is through brute force and exertion. This is why there are more lightside faces with 2 pips than there are darkside faces with 2 pips, because concentration and calm can be more precise and powerful than brute force and emotion.

 

Tell your players that using a dark side point is the equivalent of giving up some of their own energy to power a force effect, and that the dark side in turn is able to feed off that energy and tempt the user to give them more in the future. In a way, it's almost a noble act of self-sacrifice by the force user...

[orcface999 49]

Remember that this is a narrative RPG, and the rules say don't require a roll if you don't feel it's called for. Instead, be narrative and allow the crate to trip the stormtrooper in front while the rest jump over their clumsy corporal.

[Nimsim 671]

Remember that this is a narrative RPG, and the rules say don't require a roll if you don't feel it's called for. Instead, be narrative and allow the crate to trip the stormtrooper in front while the rest jump over their clumsy corporal.

 

That's another good point. In any instance where a player would have all the time they needed to use a Force Power, just allow them to do it as if they rolled the maximum number of Light Side pips. For orcface's example, I might say the player should spend a Destiny Point as well, but that's just me.

[Kilcannon 177]

I begin all Force users who begin in a F&D career with a Force Rating 2. Then any non F&Dr players begin with 30 extra starting xp which they can use for characteristics, skills, talents, or a buying anew addition specialization. This is balanced with my players since the non-force players like the flexibility and end up with higher stats or skills usually to begin. The only pc that might have an issue is one that doesn't begin as a F&Dr character. If a player chooses to do this then they can buy their 2nd force rating with 30xp. This can only work for their 2nd force rating. I have another campaign with force rating 4 and no issues. Force rating 5 or more I suspect gets a little harder to balance but my players aren't like that

Edited December 31, 2015 by Kilcannon

[leo1925 59]

The thing is that starting characters aren't jedi or sith, they are little smucks with no real training, at 150 xp (after character creation) you might be (based on how you spent the xp) at the level of a fresh padawan from the prequel trilogy era.