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USCGrad90

Open Post to TFA Detractors (Potential Spoilers)

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Yeah, but it was fun! Which was very lacking in SW for a long time.

 

 

Agreed - it was a fun sequence.

 

I don't want to sound too down on the film - I really enjoyed it and it was definitely a Star Wars movie - it contained all the right elements, but some of it seemed like it was playing all the right notes, but in the wrong order.  

Too much emphasis on things that didn't matter at the expense of things that did.

The film had bags of heart, but lacked a little soul.

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Or you can concede that people are allowed to have different opinions than you, and that all these threads minimizing the opinions of people that don't like the movie as much as that op did are spamming up the forum.

I fully concede that folks have a right to their opinions and the intent was not to minimize those, but to provide perspective and a "glass half full" approach to viewing.

Could the movie be better? Absolutely.

Could it be a lot worse? Definitely.

I just want to offer a view that despite any shortcomings, many positives can be taken away from the film.

In terms of "all these threads minimizing the opinions" I was not aware that anybody posted a thread to directly address negative opinion toward the film before mine. I have seen threads praising the film, criticizing it, and some asking from a neutral point of view what people thought. I know there are likely comments inside the threads that debate the film quality, but if I missed a thread similar to mine, I apologize for coming across as minimizing or piling on top of those who disagree.

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The most unbelievable thing about the movie, for me, wasn't the fight between Rey and Ren.

It was that the target practice remote was still on the falcon after 34 years and after three other owners besides Han. Really?!

 

If you get the chance read the Millenium Falcon novel - wanna know how the closed blast helmet luke wore for that remote training session got on the Falcon? It seems the Falcon attracts owners who do not believe in spring cleaning.

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I remember seeing blood on the ground (wasnt that much) but he acted fit to fight imo. I was not sold on his preexisting injury having much effect on the fight based on what the movie showed.

I completely understand what you are saying when you say he was injured. Im not sure how he survived a bowcaster shot when everyone else was blown 50 feet in the air when they were hit. Im just saying his loss in battle didnt appear to be because he was injured it looked like he lost because rey is a savant. If he could hardly stand or move before the action I would follow.

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When I was in college and worked in a movie theatre, a close friend and I had a very simple method for judging film.

Every film started with 5 stars. Every time you looked at your watch to see how much time was left, you took a star away. This method reflects on pacing, acting, story, etc...

In TFA, I checked the time once. So I don't consider it a perfect film, but 4 of 5 stars.

I thought there were enough moments that made me laugh, cry, and keep me on the edge of my seat to make it worthwhile.

Good method, really.

It's 3 for me that way

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I think the biggest problem people have with the Rey v. Kylo fight is that it (on the surface) throws pretty much every piece of media we've been shown since ANH out the airlock. 

All the movies, TV shows, books, video games etc. have their protagonists improving over time, (queue the Rocky montage) This is a basic tried and true story telling device and having Rey pick up a lightsaber for the first time, close her eyes and proceed to just destroy Darth Vader's grandson who was trained by Luke Skywalker himself feels like being impressed with someone who used cheat codes to beat a video game. It makes it seem like Kylo was never really a threat to begin with and subsequently cheapens Rey's victory. (Any Dark Force user that takes longer than 2 seconds to kill a STORMTROOPER in lightsaber combat should probably hang up his black cloak).

A couple of caveats, we don't know everything. So it's possible that Kylo is just incredibly weak in the Force and/or Rey has had extensive Jedi training and Luke mind wiped her and everyone else's memories to protect her origins and/or Luke was channeling his strength through Rey during the fight and/or some other McGuffin. But just taking into account what was shown to us in the movie I would say it’s more than fair for fans to feel a little let down with the Rey-is-perfect-at everything-the-first-time-she-does-it thing. 

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I've head canoned it that the FO trained their Stormtroopers in anti saber melee techniques. That's why Fin seemed to have experience fighting against a lightsaber.

TR-8R backs that up. They do have "kill Skywalker" near the top of their to-do list, and shooting at him with blasters isn't going to work. The First Order knows that, so they planned accordingly. 

 

 

I think the biggest problem people have with the Rey v. Kylo fight is that it (on the surface) throws pretty much every piece of media we've been shown since ANH out the airlock. 

All the movies, TV shows, books, video games etc. have their protagonists improving over time, (queue the Rocky montage) This is a basic tried and true story telling device and having Rey pick up a lightsaber for the first time, close her eyes and proceed to just destroy Darth Vader's grandson who was trained by Luke Skywalker himself feels like being impressed with someone who used cheat codes to beat a video game. It makes it seem like Kylo was never really a threat to begin with and subsequently cheapens Rey's victory. (Any Dark Force user that takes longer than 2 seconds to kill a STORMTROOPER in lightsaber combat should probably hang up his black cloak).

A couple of caveats, we don't know everything. So it's possible that Kylo is just incredibly weak in the Force and/or Rey has had extensive Jedi training and Luke mind wiped her and everyone else's memories to protect her origins and/or Luke was channeling his strength through Rey during the fight and/or some other McGuffin. But just taking into account what was shown to us in the movie I would say it’s more than fair for fans to feel a little let down with the Rey-is-perfect-at everything-the-first-time-she-does-it thing. 

Kylo had been shot by a weapon that made a guy do a backflip earlier. As I recall, he was hunched over and at one point missed an opportunity to kill Finn when his wound acted up and distracted him. He then nearly beat Rey despite having already fought an uninjured, physically fit opponent that may have had close combat training. Honestly the fact that he didn't just collapse and die the first time she got the advantage is pretty impressive, and he isn't fully trained yet. 

 

Also note that Rey has been in fights before, judging from her winning that 2v1 on Jakku. She may not know the ins and outs of lightsaber combat but she does have some skills to draw on. She was also furious at Ren for killing Han (and Finn, or so she thought) and we've consistently seen Force users get way more dangerous when they're angry. 

Edited by Hockeyzombie

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I dunno

I remember seeing blood on the ground (wasnt that much) but he acted fit to fight imo. I was not sold on his preexisting injury having much effect on the fight based on what the movie showed.

I completely understand what you are saying when you say he was injured. Im not sure how he survived a bowcaster shot when everyone else was blown 50 feet in the air when they were hit. Im just saying his loss in battle didnt appear to be because he was injured it looked like he lost because rey is a savant. If he could hardly stand or move before the action I would follow.

Really? He looked to me on the second viewing like he was stumbling around quite a bit. It bothered me more after the first viewing (though not as much as some) than it did after I was looking for what was going on.

It also mostly looked like he was just angrily hacking away at Finn and Rey like they were trees rather than combatants. I didn't see a guy who looked like he knew swordplay, but a guy who has a weapon that cuts through anything and didn't need to learn how to deal with someone who could actually, you know, block his lazer sword. All of the combatants, frankly, looked like a bunch of teenagers who were handed swords and told to fight. And so they hacked away like swords are axes. That isn't a complaint - it made sense that they all looked like amateurs.

Edited by GiraffeandZebra

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I think the biggest problem people have with the Rey v. Kylo fight is that it (on the surface) throws pretty much every piece of media we've been shown since ANH out the airlock. All the movies, TV shows, books, video games etc. have their protagonists improving over time, (queue the Rocky montage) This is a basic tried and true story telling device and having Rey pick up a lightsaber for the first time, close her eyes and proceed to just destroy Darth Vader's grandson who was trained by Luke Skywalker himself feels like being impressed with someone who used cheat codes to beat a video game. It makes it seem like Kylo was never really a threat to begin with and subsequently cheapens Rey's victory. (Any Dark Force user that takes longer than 2 seconds to kill a STORMTROOPER in lightsaber combat should probably hang up his black cloak).

A couple of caveats, we don't know everything. So it's possible that Kylo is just incredibly weak in the Force and/or Rey has had extensive Jedi training and Luke mind wiped her and everyone else's memories to protect her origins and/or Luke was channeling his strength through Rey during the fight and/or some other McGuffin. But just taking into account what was shown to us in the movie I would say it’s more than fair for fans to feel a little let down with the Rey-is-perfect-at everything-the-first-time-she-does-it thing. 

 

The fact that he's Vader's grandson probably matters a lot less if you assume she's also his granddaughter.

I dunno

I remember seeing blood on the ground (wasnt that much) but he acted fit to fight imo. I was not sold on his preexisting injury having much effect on the fight based on what the movie showed.I completely understand what you are saying when you say he was injured. Im not sure how he survived a bowcaster shot when everyone else was blown 50 feet in the air when they were hit. Im just saying his loss in battle didnt appear to be because he was injured it looked like he lost because rey is a savant. If he could hardly stand or move before the action I would follow.

Really? He looked to me on the second viewing like he was stumbling around quite a bit. It bothered me more after the first viewing (though not as much as some) than it did after I was looking for what was going on.It also mostly looked like he was just angrily hacking away at Finn and Rey like they were trees rather than combatants. I didn't see a guy who looked like he knew swordplay, but a guy who has a weapon that cuts through anything and didn't need to learn how to deal with someone who could actually, you know, block his lazer sword. All of the combatants, frankly, looked like a bunch of teenagers who were handed swords and told to fight.

It looked like Kylo Ren normally uses a two-handed fighting style, but he used only one hand for the better part of that fight - the one on his non-wounded side.

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I dunno

I remember seeing blood on the ground (wasnt that much) but he acted fit to fight imo. I was not sold on his preexisting injury having much effect on the fight based on what the movie showed.

I completely understand what you are saying when you say he was injured. Im not sure how he survived a bowcaster shot when everyone else was blown 50 feet in the air when they were hit. Im just saying his loss in battle didnt appear to be because he was injured it looked like he lost because rey is a savant. If he could hardly stand or move before the action I would follow.

Really? He looked to me on the second viewing like he was stumbling around quite a bit. It bothered me more after the first viewing (though not as much as some) than it did after I was looking for what was going on.

It also mostly looked like he was just angrily hacking away at Finn and Rey like they were trees rather than combatants. I didn't see a guy who looked like he knew swordplay, but a guy who has a weapon that cuts through anything and didn't need to learn how to deal with someone who could actually, you know, block his lazer sword. All of the combatants, frankly, looked like a bunch of teenagers who were handed swords and told to fight. And so they hacked away like swords are axes. That isn't a complaint - it made sense that they all looked like amateurs.

 

he has that spin tho

 

i could watch it for hours 

3o8dp4VOQoI7XBNYZy.gif

Edited by THEMANONTHEM00N

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he has that spin tho

 

 

i could watch it for hours 

3o8dp4VOQoI7XBNYZy.gif

 

He used that upwards diagonal-slash multiple times to both parry and attack, and I could hardly contain myself...its just awesome. I hope they incorporate more unique fighting styles in for saber-users. 

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Kylo had been shot by a weapon that made a guy do a backflip earlier. As I recall, he was hunched over and at one point missed an opportunity to kill Finn when his wound acted up and distracted him. He then nearly beat Rey despite having already fought an uninjured, physically fit opponent that may have had close combat training. Honestly the fact that he didn't just collapse and die the first time she got the advantage is pretty impressive, and he isn't fully trained yet. 

 

Also note that Rey has been in fights before, judging from her winning that 2v1 on Jakku. She may not know the ins and outs of lightsaber combat but she does have some skills to draw on. She was also furious at Ren for killing Han (and Finn, or so she thought) and we've consistently seen Force users get way more dangerous when they're angry. 

 

You make several good points. It doesn't bother me as much as it does a lot of my fellow nerdy SW friends. It's more too much exposure/clinging onto old franchise stuff than any major flaw with the film. Fighting with a traditional staff should be completely different than wielding an energy blade with all its weight in the hilt and I'm not sure if skill with a staff would translate well to fencing against someone who has at least been familiar with their weapon the majority of their life.

Granted its fictional space magic, but I'm the kind of guy that LOVES the all unnecessary fluff like the 7 traditional forms of lightsaber combat and the advantages/disadvantages of Dooku's curved lightsaber hilt.  

Rey and Kylo being on roughly the same level does create an interesting opportunity for the SW franchise to have the hero and villain level up together and keep things interesting. Really it just means Kylo will just need a few extra scenes of being a bad*** in the next film! 

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The fact that he's Vader's grandson probably matters a lot less if you assume she's also his granddaughter.

Absolutely and while I'm not particularly in love with the theory that everybody conveniently forgot Rey had similar training to Kylo I still like it better than her starting out at level 20.

That said being abandoned on desert planets is kind of a Skywalker family tradition.

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Kylo had been shot by a weapon that made a guy do a backflip earlier. As I recall, he was hunched over and at one point missed an opportunity to kill Finn when his wound acted up and distracted him. He then nearly beat Rey despite having already fought an uninjured, physically fit opponent that may have had close combat training. Honestly the fact that he didn't just collapse and die the first time she got the advantage is pretty impressive, and he isn't fully trained yet. 

 

Also note that Rey has been in fights before, judging from her winning that 2v1 on Jakku. She may not know the ins and outs of lightsaber combat but she does have some skills to draw on. She was also furious at Ren for killing Han (and Finn, or so she thought) and we've consistently seen Force users get way more dangerous when they're angry. 

 

You make several good points. It doesn't bother me as much as it does a lot of my fellow nerdy SW friends. It's more too much exposure/clinging onto old franchise stuff than any major flaw with the film. Fighting with a traditional staff should be completely different than wielding an energy blade with all its weight in the hilt and I'm not sure if skill with a staff would translate well to fencing against someone who has at least been familiar with their weapon the majority of their life.

Granted its fictional space magic, but I'm the kind of guy that LOVES the all unnecessary fluff like the 7 traditional forms of lightsaber combat and the advantages/disadvantages of Dooku's curved lightsaber hilt.  

Rey and Kylo being on roughly the same level does create an interesting opportunity for the SW franchise to have the hero and villain level up together and keep things interesting. Really it just means Kylo will just need a few extra scenes of being a bad*** in the next film! 

 

I suspect he'll get them. Even in this one he has that Force Stasis thing that he does, and he shows a pretty versatile bag of tricks all things considered. He definitely would have won against Rey if not for his injury and exhaustion, but by their next fight she'll have training from Luke Skywalker himself and Kylo Ren will likely have finished his training. Should be one hell of a rematch. 

Edited by Hockeyzombie

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Considering Rey used a staff to begin with, I'm hoping she ends up with a double ended lightsaber after Luke training :)

 

I have no problem with her force ability use in the film, after all Luke pulled the ability to grab a lightsaber out of the snow (and into his hand) from out of nowhere in Empire.

 

She just got there faster.

 

And after the encounter with Ren where she resisted his mind reading, maybe she used the 'Jedi mind trick' to escape as she'd heard about it. (Jabba had heard about Jedi mind tricks, mentioning it as though they were common knowledge. Someone else mentions it in TPM as well, the guy who owned baby Vader. (sorry to bring up that atrocity, I do apologise)).

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Considering Rey used a staff to begin with, I'm hoping she ends up with a double ended lightsaber after Luke training :)

 

I have no problem with her force ability use in the film, after all Luke pulled the ability to grab a lightsaber out of the snow (and into his hand) from out of nowhere in Empire.

 

She just got there faster.

 

And after the encounter with Ren where she resisted his mind reading, maybe she used the 'Jedi mind trick' to escape as she'd heard about it. (Jabba had heard about Jedi mind tricks, mentioning it as though they were common knowledge. Someone else mentions it in TPM as well, the guy who owned baby Vader. (sorry to bring up that atrocity, I do apologise)).

I would love to see her use something like Maul's lightsaber. Longer handle, maybe a longer blade as well. Or even make the handle nearly the size of her staff so that when the blade is ignited it's the same size as her mundane staff was? Sith have shown a tendency towards heavily customized lightsabers, it would be cool to see a Jedi adopt that tradition and go for something really unique. 

 

I suppose in Maul's case I should say "lightsabers," since he basically built two identical lightsabers and made the pommels interlock. That's why he still had a functional weapon after Obi-Wan cut through the handle.

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I suspect he'll get them. Even in this one he has that Force Stasis thing that he does, and he shows a pretty versatile bag of tricks all things considered. He definitely would have won against Rey if not for his injury and exhaustion, but by their next fighbt she'll have training from Luke Skywalker himself and Kylor Ren will likely have finished his training. Should be one hell of a rematch. 

Personally I'm hoping for an ESB type of vibe from the second movie where Kylo beats Rey in a rematch. And then of course the final showdown in the third movie where he gets defeated for the last time. 

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rey with a maul double saber would be badass. but can you imagine the nerd rage

Not a full on double blade like Maul had, just a handle around that size. I like the way it looks. 

 

That and nerd rage has always been one of those things that's both hilarious and cringeworthy to see, and unless it's fully justified I tend to like it as a way to determine whose opinions I do or do not care about. I can handle disagreeing with people, but if they're losing their mind over nothing I'll want to remember to just ignore them when they claim that X is broken and will ruin the game. By comparison, if MajorJuggler or Osoroshi panics, I'll be a little worried. 

 

 

 

I suspect he'll get them. Even in this one he has that Force Stasis thing that he does, and he shows a pretty versatile bag of tricks all things considered. He definitely would have won against Rey if not for his injury and exhaustion, but by their next fighbt she'll have training from Luke Skywalker himself and Kylor Ren will likely have finished his training. Should be one hell of a rematch. 

Personally I'm hoping for an ESB type of vibe from the second movie where Kylo beats Rey in a rematch. And then of course the final showdown in the third movie where he gets defeated for the last time. 

 

As a friend of mine put it, Kylo Ren has a posse. He's a member of the Knights of Ren, so it stands to reason that Rey may find herself outnumbered in the next movie. She's good but I don't think she's good enough to win a 2v1 without escaping or getting outside help. That and it would be fitting for everything to go sideways in the middle of the trilogy, before they manage to turn it around and win in the third part. 

 

More distressing is the fact that if that happens we'll have to stop using shortening his name to Ren, but calling him Kylo just doesn't work for me. Full name it is, I guess. Unless he's their champion or something and the Ren title is exclusive to him, but I'm pretty sure it's basically the same as Darth except that it goes after your name instead of before it.

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rey with a maul double saber would be badass. but can you imagine the nerd rage

How many threads would that take up?

Then there's the arguments, ruined friendships, broken marriages, riots in the streets and the end of civilization as we know it. All because of a glow stick in a movie.

Yes

I can imagine the nerd rage

"I can feel the hate swelling in [them] now"

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rey with a maul double saber would be badass. but can you imagine the nerd rage

How many threads would that take up?

Then there's the arguments, ruined friendships, broken marriages, riots in the streets and the end of civilization as we know it. All because of a glow stick in a movie.

Yes

I can imagine the nerd rage

"I can feel the hate swelling in [them] now"

I'm actually very optimistic about that. After all, we only had to suffer through about a month of nerd rage before the lightsaber with crossguards was accepted. Or generally accepted, at least.

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