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Tokyogriz

Is the Success of X-Wing Killing our beloved FFG?

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Hell, I'm glad DnD bit the dust. It allowed people to play other genres and styles of RPGs and make up and sell their own. Back in the day we only had ADnD and SPURG. Now there's hundreds of games to choose from, and you can be anything from a hacker or an occult unit cop to the queen of England.

 

4e helping know D&D off its perch definitely helped the non-D&D RPG explosion and helped everybody. Even WotC seems to have learned a few things and are back on their way to the top with 5e. D&D will probably never quite have the vast majority of RPG games it once did, but it's probably safe as a major player for quite some time to come.

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When roughly 75% of the player base leaves a game after you change edition you know you screwed up.  So many players were pissed they created another game because of Hasbros idiotic decision making. 

 

They "Killed" what they had.  Funny thing was them reprinting old 3.5 books a few years later to try to get people back.  My local store had few if any 4.0 books but lots of Pathfinder and Reprinted 3.5 books.

So they should have just kept the bloated mess going instead? I'm sure tons of people left when AD&D was replaced by 2nd Editiion, and again when that was replaced by 3rd, and yet again when that was largely replaced by 3.5. D&D has continued to be a financial juggernaut regardless.

 

So they should have tried the same thing over and over and over? 4e needed to be something entirely new and I liked it. It wasn't traditional DnD and lacked any real social machanics, but the latter case was hardly ever in DnD to begin with and after the magical bloat that made mundanes as exciting to play as a dishwasher, it needed something entirely new. It was a breath of fresh air.

 

BUT OF COURSE THE FANS KNOW BEST SO I'M GOING TO TYPE IN CAPS AND EXPRESS MY RAGE UNTIL THEY REWRITE 4E INTO 3.5! BECAUSE BACKTRACKING A SYSTEM OR PLAYING DND NEXT WOULD BE COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL, **** YOU WIZARDS FOR TRYING SOMETHING WE DON'T LIKE!!! WARRRAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH*

 

*What I read whenever I enter a debate about anything on a forum

I liked 4E, that's the only version I've D&D I've actually played. I was saying that they were right to drop 3.5 and move on to a new edition.

Market probably proved otherwise.

IMO the bigggest flaw in 3.5 was the D&D brand itself. The game itself was pretty good, but it got rid of several concepts many people considered key to D&D.

A lot of people were outraged because WotC was trying to sell them 4e as 'D&D' when it was ibvious to them 4e was NOT D&D (because it lacked aspects they considered key to the D&D experience)

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That makes sense. I was a bit confused because it seemed like you (Lordbiscuit) were arguing with me, but you were fundamentally agreeing with what I was saying. I actually had some sarcastic remark about actually reading what I posted before it occurred to me that you might just be backing me up on what I was saying. Glad I removed it before hitting "post". 

 

I suspect LordBlades is right on why people lashed out at 4E, although I roll my eyes at the people who did. D&D suffers from the same issue superheroes do: a large portion of the fans feel like things are getting stale, but end up hating the changes. Personally the thing that always annoyed me about D&D (more like D&D players) is the tendency to overuse stereotypes for each class. You know, the fighter is brave and a bit dumb, the barbarian is basically a temperamental retard, the wizard is an insufferable genius, and so on. Then I would go online and see complaints about how those archtypes had gotten stale (they had) but people also complained endlessly when D&D tried to go in new and interesting directions with either mechanics or lore. I've taken to calling it "the Superman problem". 

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I suspect LordBlades is right on why people lashed out at 4E, although I roll my eyes at the people who did. D&D suffers from the same issue superheroes do: a large portion of the fans feel like things are getting stale, but end up hating the changes. Personally the thing that always annoyed me about D&D (more like D&D players) is the tendency to overuse stereotypes for each class. You know, the fighter is brave and a bit dumb, the barbarian is basically a temperamental retard, the wizard is an insufferable genius, and so on. Then I would go online and see complaints about how those archtypes had gotten stale (they had) but people also complained endlessly when D&D tried to go in new and interesting directions with either mechanics or lore. I've taken to calling it "the Superman problem".

I think it would have helped a lot if WotC had done some proper research before designing 4e. Knowing what your customers want is a very important step in delivering a successful product.

IMO, had WotC went with a more conservative aporoach (something similar to Star Wars Saga Edition, considered by many as WotC's best system)they would have been much more succesful.

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I'm not sure there is much to be upset about just yet.  A change in ownership isn't always a negative thing.  It doesn't seem to have had a huge impact on the games so far.

 

For FFG to continue to release new games constantly, I imagine some would have to stop being supported.  So it would be a double edged sword, that. 

 

I can't fault them for playing up the Star Wars license for everything its worth, truly.  The games have been good so far as well so I just don't see what the problem is, or at least what new problems there are.

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Using Betteridge's law of headlines.   The answer is no. 

 

So far everything pumped out has been superb, except maybe the cheap plastic flags for units from Forbidden Stars and maybe only having half the starting characters in Runebound 3rd edition compared to 2nd edition.

 

Creativity has been at an all time high for FFG. 

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Wonder if this had anything to do with X-Wing model releases? I remember when people were paying big money to buy models not in print, not on the boat, etc. Need equity to make orders to keep product flowing. Or my assumption is super off.

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The issue with distribution doesn't affect 90-96% of you. Online relailers get their stock from a distributor so nothing changes. A lot of legal mini jumbo that has people worried for no reason. They are attempt to **** out the garage speculators who horde all the squadrons and charge $30 instead of $12.95-15.96. This is going to help us in the end and not hurt.

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Robin Graves, on 24 Dec 2015 - 4:53 PM, said:

Did Hasbro buying Wizards of the coast kill Magic the gathering? ;)

 

They killed D&D!

 

 

No, TSR killed D&D.  TSR had never really been run particularly well and by the late 1990s, it was about to fold.  WoTC bought TSR and rescued it from the trash bin it was headed for.  While I don't personally care for WoTCs version of D&D, 3.5 was a monster hit that brought D&D into the mainstream. 

 

3E D&D also came with an Open Gaming Licence that made sure that the TSR era D&D and 3E D&D would survive even if the company that owned it collapsed into ruin.  The OGL has been instrumental in the "Old School Renaissance" of D&D that has ushered in a plethora of new content for the older TSR versions of D&D.  In a way, WoTC actually did a far better job of saving old-school D&D than TSR ever did. 

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Right now the only thing that could kill FFG is FFG. If you take a look at Blizzard they done well under Activision banner. However as much as I lam-blast Activision over Bungie's corruption with Destiny, to be fair Bungie's fall from grace was all Bungie and Activision was just a rubber stamp and financial encouragement. It was internal factors not external factors. Same with Konami (good riddens Sakamoto).

 

Still in light of recent events with the Video Game industry and how you could see some of the influences here (Day 1 expansions from Game Salute, pre-order bonuses for board games) I understand the concern of the OP. The best answer is only time will tell, there is a chance any company can become retarded and fall flat on their face as they are seduced by the dark side, but it is nearly impossible to tell which company will fall. So only time will tell.

Edited by Marinealver

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Robin Graves, on 24 Dec 2015 - 4:53 PM, said:

Did Hasbro buying Wizards of the coast kill Magic the gathering? ;)

 

They killed D&D!

 

 

No, TSR killed D&D.  TSR had never really been run particularly well and by the late 1990s, it was about to fold.  WoTC bought TSR and rescued it from the trash bin it was headed for.  While I don't personally care for WoTCs version of D&D, 3.5 was a monster hit that brought D&D into the mainstream. 

 

3E D&D also came with an Open Gaming Licence that made sure that the TSR era D&D and 3E D&D would survive even if the company that owned it collapsed into ruin.  The OGL has been instrumental in the "Old School Renaissance" of D&D that has ushered in a plethora of new content for the older TSR versions of D&D.  In a way, WoTC actually did a far better job of saving old-school D&D than TSR ever did. 

 

 

Actually Hasbro bought WotC mainly for it's IPs. D&D 3 & 3.5 was already dying when they decided to try out 4E. I tried it out briefly but the system was ok but power-gamey. I really did not like the fluff reset. Hasbro/WotC have tried a lot of thing in their time - a lot has worked (and is still being used), quite a lot has failed rather spectacularly (Remember Rolling Thunder?). It used to be a fairly progressive company (with spectacular successes and equally spectactular failures) but after decade of being owned by Hasbro it's now more or less a brand to manage a particular genre of games that Hasbro owns.

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Robin Graves, on 24 Dec 2015 - 4:53 PM, said:

Did Hasbro buying Wizards of the coast kill Magic the gathering? ;)

 

They killed D&D!

 

 

No, TSR killed D&D.  TSR had never really been run particularly well and by the late 1990s, it was about to fold.  WoTC bought TSR and rescued it from the trash bin it was headed for.  While I don't personally care for WoTCs version of D&D, 3.5 was a monster hit that brought D&D into the mainstream. 

 

3E D&D also came with an Open Gaming Licence that made sure that the TSR era D&D and 3E D&D would survive even if the company that owned it collapsed into ruin.  The OGL has been instrumental in the "Old School Renaissance" of D&D that has ushered in a plethora of new content for the older TSR versions of D&D.  In a way, WoTC actually did a far better job of saving old-school D&D than TSR ever did. 

 

 

Oh yeah WOTC flat out saved D&D. (TSR was bankrupt, if wizards hadn't bougt them when they did, it would game over) It's just that after they got bought by Hasbro it started to slide backwards. Especially with 5th edition: They don't seem to pump out much stuff compared to 4th and parthfinder.

Edited by Robin Graves

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Huh. The only reason I like FFG is for X-Wing. So none of this seems like a problem to me.

 

In addition to X-Wing, I really like their card sleeves.  Best card sleeves I've ever used.  Don't know how they do it.  I assume it is bc every sleeve is imbued with the soul of a KFC chicken harvested in a demonic ritual.  

 

Eldritch Horror is also pretty boss.  

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Robin Graves, on 24 Dec 2015 - 4:53 PM, said:

Did Hasbro buying Wizards of the coast kill Magic the gathering? ;)

 

They killed D&D!

 

 

No, TSR killed D&D.  TSR had never really been run particularly well and by the late 1990s, it was about to fold.  WoTC bought TSR and rescued it from the trash bin it was headed for.  While I don't personally care for WoTCs version of D&D, 3.5 was a monster hit that brought D&D into the mainstream. 

 

3E D&D also came with an Open Gaming Licence that made sure that the TSR era D&D and 3E D&D would survive even if the company that owned it collapsed into ruin.  The OGL has been instrumental in the "Old School Renaissance" of D&D that has ushered in a plethora of new content for the older TSR versions of D&D.  In a way, WoTC actually did a far better job of saving old-school D&D than TSR ever did. 

 

 

Oh yeah WOTC flat out saved D&D. (TSR was bankrupt, if wizards hadn't bougt them when they did, it would game over) It's just that after they got bought by Hasbro it started to slide backwards. Especially with 5th edition: They don't seem to pump out much stuff compared to 4th and parthfinder.

 

I wouldn't say just - its been 18 years since they bought out TSR, and 16 years since they have been bought out by Hasbro. D&D 3E launched 15 years ago (but the work for it began much before the Hasbro buy out). D&D 4E was launched 7 years ago, D&D 5E was launched last year (2014). The 3rd edition and it's derived rule are possibly the most significant RPG rule set ever, being used to reinterprete various settings in tabletop RPGs, videogames and other electronic media.

Having played D&D recently again, I'd say 4th Ed was a bold but unwise move, while 5th is a cautious attempt to redeem itself to older players. 

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4e would have been a decent system on it's own if it hadn't used the Dnd name. DnD 3ed and onward has never really been a game about allowing players complete control, unless you had a unique GM. The problem however was how shallow the system was compared to even to 3ed. This combined with the release of pathfinder far enough in advance of 4e was (IMO) the final nails in the coffin for DnD. 4E forced more people to pathfinder to that when, finally, WoTC decided to actually listen to the player base and release 5e it was too late a large part of their market share had migrated to Pathfinder.

 

It's striking to me that I see alot of Pathfinder Society groups but I rarely even hear of people wanted to play DnD anymore. Yes, I know anecdotal evidence can't be used as real evidence but to me its telling of how far the game has fallen.

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When roughly 75% of the player base leaves a game after you change edition you know you screwed up.  So many players were pissed they created another game because of Hasbros idiotic decision making. 

 

They "Killed" what they had.  Funny thing was them reprinting old 3.5 books a few years later to try to get people back.  My local store had few if any 4.0 books but lots of Pathfinder and Reprinted 3.5 books. 

So they should have just kept the bloated mess going instead? I'm sure tons of people left when AD&D was replaced by 2nd Editiion, and again when that was replaced by 3rd, and yet again when that was largely replaced by 3.5. D&D has continued to be a financial juggernaut regardless. 

 

 

So they should have tried the same thing over and over and over? 4e needed to be something entirely new and I liked it. It wasn't traditional DnD and lacked any real social machanics, but the latter case was hardly ever in DnD to begin with and after the magical bloat that made mundanes as exciting to play as a dishwasher, it needed something entirely new. It was a breath of fresh air.

 

BUT OF COURSE THE FANS KNOW BEST SO I'M GOING TO TYPE IN CAPS AND EXPRESS MY RAGE UNTIL THEY REWRITE 4E INTO 3.5! BECAUSE BACKTRACKING A SYSTEM OR PLAYING DND NEXT WOULD BE COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL, **** YOU WIZARDS FOR TRYING SOMETHING WE DON'T LIKE!!! WARRRAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH*

 

*What I read whenever I enter a debate about anything on a forum

 

I liked 4E, that's the only version I've D&D I've actually played. I was saying that they were right to drop 3.5 and move on to a new edition. 

 

 

If you've never played anything but 4E then how could you possibly know if it was right for them to drop 3.5?

 

4E was terrible in my opinion, way too much focus on MMORPG style classes almost certainly due to the popularity of WoW. Pathfinder was a much better successor to 3.5

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They had lost too many of the key people who created 3e (revised to 3.5 later) to control the direction of thier IP anymore. The last few 3.5 sourcebooks for d&d were pretty aweful. On the other hand the competition was using 3.5 to make awesome games. Something had to give.

Edited by Hantheman

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In addition to X-Wing, I really like their card sleeves.

I just wish they'd get more of the mini's in stock. Haven't been able to find any since regionals, that includes going to the FFG event center itself.

 

I second that! When I see them I buy them three packs at a time because of their scarcity a month and a half later.

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In addition to X-Wing, I really like their card sleeves.

I just wish they'd get more of the mini's in stock. Haven't been able to find any since regionals, that includes going to the FFG event center itself.

 

I second that! When I see them I buy them three packs at a time because of their scarcity a month and a half later.

 

 

agreed, I bought 8 packs on my last order.  Hopefully that'll tide me over for a while :)

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I second that! When I see them I buy them three packs at a time because of their scarcity a month and a half later.

 

agreed, I bought 8 packs on my last order.  Hopefully that'll tide me over for a while :)

That's the problem... Between X-Wing and Armada, I need about $250 worth of sleeves... Well not really, just seem that way. :) But I could use about 5-6 packs of them.

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I second that! When I see them I buy them three packs at a time because of their scarcity a month and a half later.

 

agreed, I bought 8 packs on my last order.  Hopefully that'll tide me over for a while :)

 

That's the problem... Between X-Wing and Armada, I need about $250 worth of sleeves... Well not really, just seem that way. :) But I could use about 5-6 packs of them.

 

 

Agreed, I have bought a bunch of them, my issue has always been in buying what I need now, instead of just buying enough to tide me over - with 400 "in the drawer", not sure I'll need another order for a while.  At least till February ;)

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