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tenchi2a

Whens a Jedi a Jedi

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I am looking to start a new game set in the pre-episode 1 time period.

So I was wondering when a Jedi should go from Padawan to Knight.

When should I hold the Trials when they have a certain Force Rating or have gotten so many XP etc..

 

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I believe the Trial of Fire (or something like that) was the trial necessary to determine if/when a Padawan becomes a Knight.  As for when it happens, it was always at the discretion of the padawan's master to determine when he was eligible to attempt the trial.  In game terms, most people consider "Knight-level play" to be roughly padawan class.  By that distinction, around the 150 XP earned mark.

 

EDIT: An interesting side note.  Anakin actually failed the trial when he attempted it sometime after Episode 2.  He was granted the rank of Knight as a special exception due to the number of Jedi lost at Geonosis, and the on going Clone Wars.  Even more proof that Anakin was a very poor example of a Jedi.

Edited by TalosX

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The Jedi order was a bunch of nincompoops.

 

If they had not forced Anakin to hide his marriage, he could have gone to them with his problems.

 

They really had a double standard when they allowed Master Ki-Adi-Mundi to have five wives, but humans, a race with robust libidos weren't allowed to marry at all.

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Sam Stewart had some pretty interesting thoughts as to when a Force and Destiny PC can truly be considered a Jedi Knight in this system.

 

In short, there's no mechanical benchmarks, but it's more about a level of maturity in both the character and the player.  Consider that Luke wasn't truly a Jedi Knight until he confronted Vader aboard the second Death Star and made his decision to turn away from the dark side and embrace the light, even if it meant his death, though he did go around saying he was a Jedi Knight prior to that (such as when introducing himself via hologram to Jabba).

 

Alternatively, you've got Obi-Wan being promoted to Jedi Knight at the end of TPM due to his having faced and defeated a Sith Lord without succumbing to the dark side, demonstrating a high level of skill and emotional fortitude to be able to claim victory when by all rights he should have perished, though Qui-Gon did mention that Obi-Wan was ready for the Trials on their last visit to Coruscant.

 

Personally, I think that it's a good idea for this system that are no mechanical benchmarks to indicate when someone would be considered a Jedi Knight, leaving it more in the hands of the players and GMs to determine when a character truly qualifies as such.

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The Jedi order was a bunch of nincompoops.

 

If they had not forced Anakin to hide his marriage, he could have gone to them with his problems.

 

They really had a double standard when they allowed Master Ki-Adi-Mundi to have five wives, but humans, a race with robust libidos weren't allowed to marry at all.

 

The problem wasn't with the order when it comes to Skywalker Snr, it is with Qui-gon and Kenobi. The Order said Skywalker was too old to be taught with the Jedi methods at that time but Qui-gon decided he knew better. Then Kenobi carried on the mistake and was bad at teaching Skywalker about controlling his emotions. The marriage was just a symptom of the poor teaching done by Kenobi because if he taught Skywalker correctly then he would of chosen the Order and not the girl.

 

The arrogance that Yoda spoke off was in full effect in Qui-gon and Kenobi

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The Jedi order was a bunch of nincompoops.

 

If they had not forced Anakin to hide his marriage, he could have gone to them with his problems.

 

They really had a double standard when they allowed Master Ki-Adi-Mundi to have five wives, but humans, a race with robust libidos weren't allowed to marry at all.

 

The problem wasn't with the order when it comes to Skywalker Snr, it is with Qui-gon and Kenobi. The Order said Skywalker was too old to be taught with the Jedi methods at that time but Qui-gon decided he knew better. Then Kenobi carried on the mistake and was bad at teaching Skywalker about controlling his emotions. The marriage was just a symptom of the poor teaching done by Kenobi because if he taught Skywalker correctly then he would of chosen the Order and not the girl.

 

The arrogance that Yoda spoke off was in full effect in Qui-gon and Kenobi

 

Not sure what ether of these have to do with my question but ok.

In all fairness the Jedi of the phantom menaces time have become way to dogmatic in there teachings.

They talk of bringing balance to the force but they like the Sith are upsetting the balance they want. 

Yes the Sith are to evil but on that note the Jedi have become an emotionless band of hermits to set on eradicating evil and ignoring that evil lives in all of us.

emotion is not a bad thing its how you act on it that can be bad or good.

one can be anger and not fall to the darkside as show by Luke on the Deathstar 2.

the idea that i got upset and acted out of anger does not make me evil (Lucas im talking to you lol)

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I am looking to start a new game set in the pre-episode 1 time period.

So I was wondering when a Jedi should go from Padawan to Knight.

When should I hold the Trials when they have a certain Force Rating or have gotten so many XP etc..

 

I agree that these benchmarks belong more in the narrative category, but I also think the PC has to demonstrate a certain level of capability before the Jedi would consider them for any Trials.  Training and/or 3 dice in Discipline (for mastering Fear, etc), would seem crucial.  Likewise, some education/lore/geography knowledge, along with other handy skills like Mechanics, Computers, Cool, Vigilance, etc., plus basic training in lightsaber (even if it's not a career skill) are probably a minimum.  

 

Where those minimums fall is up to the GM and players to decide.  As a rule of thumb for my own table, assuming the player takes a broad approach to skill development, they might be considered "late youngling/early Padawan" by the time they accumulate 150XP, and might be invited to partake in the Knight trials at 300XP.  But YMMV...

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Keep in mind, any jedi can leave the order to marry. But there was a war on. I strongly suspect the jedi order knew about padme and decided to look the other way to keep one of their post powerful Knights.

 

I always got the impression from Yoda's talk with Anakin about his nightmares that Yoda (at least) had some idea that something was up between Anakin and Padme. 

 

As for when is a Jedi a Jedi, when the GM says he is. Knight play is 150 but really a padawan becomes a knight when the GM feels the story is better served with the PC's becoming Jedi Knights. When that happens I think is hard to determine since it really comes down to what kind of story you're attempting to tell. For instance you say starter PC's are Jedi Knights if you're playing during the Clone Wars and the Jedi Order is in desperate need of generals to lead. On the flip side, during peace time it may be possible to get 300 xp into a character and still not demonstrated that the PC is ready to become a Jedi knight.

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Trigger Warning: This Post Contains Opinion

 

Being a Jedi, as opposed to just being a force user, is more about discipline, maturity, and morality than power.

 

In terms of mechanics, your average Jedi Knight as depicted in the OT should have:

  1. FR 3
  2. Discipline (Skill)
  3. Lightsaber (Skill)
  4. Some enhance (esp. leap), sense, and move
  5. Be working on a lightsaber spec

Building past that is the road to becoming a Jedi Master.

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Not sure what ether of these have to do with my question but ok.

 

In all fairness the Jedi of the phantom menaces time have become way to dogmatic in there teachings.

They talk of bringing balance to the force but they like the Sith are upsetting the balance they want. 

Yes the Sith are to evil but on that note the Jedi have become an emotionless band of hermits to set on eradicating evil and ignoring that evil lives in all of us.

emotion is not a bad thing its how you act on it that can be bad or good.

one can be anger and not fall to the darkside as show by Luke on the Deathstar 2.

the idea that i got upset and acted out of anger does not make me evil (Lucas im talking to you lol)

 

 

Back in the day, when the Old Republic was still just called 'The Republic', the Jedi Order was betrayed and nearly destroyed by a young, talented Jedi who allowed his attachments to turn him toward the Dark Side.  Having narrowly escaped extinction, the order (ironically) reacted out of fear, and began teaching that attachment, passion, etc. were the path to the Dark Side.  The sought to instill *only* peace, and 'good' emotions.

 

(Bear in mind that this is mostly based on now decidedly non-canon stuff, mostly from the old comics.)

 

Moving on to the prequel trilogy, we discover that this works well enough, when you raise your members from children, and they are too young to remember their families to *be* attached to them.  Unfortunately, these teachings backfired on the Jedi Order millennia later, when they took on the training of Anikin, who *had* already developed those attachments, and knew that they were viewed as 'negative' by the Order.  When he couldn't save his mother, he felt lost, and betrayed by the Force (and by extension the Jedi).  This gave the Dark Side, a place to dig in and 'fester'.  It also gave a Sith Lord a way to gain an 'in' with the young Jedi because he was 'the only person Anikin could tell about any of this' without already 'knowing' he was going to be judged negatively for it.  Ironically, if there was any one Jedi that might have understood, it would have been Obi-Wan who, in the same EU of the time, had certain 'attachments' of his own that he had dealt with.  For the same reasons that Anikin hid *his* relationship with Padme, Obi-Wan didn't openly discuss his prior relationship.  (Even in the Clone Wars cartoon, when it was hinted at, he downplayed it and refused to actually talk about it, treating it as some sort of embarrassing error of judgement.)

 

As for the balance issue:

The Jedi sought balance.  The Dark Side is corruption.  It is the Force out of balance.  Therefore, minimizing/eliminating the effects of the Dark Side *is* creating balance.

 

 

Unfortunately, their very teachings, reduced to dogma by generations of adherents who never had reason to question them, allowed one of their strongest to be pulled *out* of balance, and corrupted.  It wasn't the Jedi's actions that brought about their end, but rather their insistence on *inaction* in a certain area that blinded them to the situation that was developing.

 

My games have an entire offshoot order from the ancient Jedi based around this theory, complete with their own code, including aspects of both the Jedi and Sith codes, wrapped into a fully realized circle:

The Dakkari Path

Through awareness comes emotion.

Through emotion comes conflict.

Through conflict comes knowledge.

Through knowledge comes understanding.

Through understanding comes control.

Through control comes action.

Through action comes change.

Through change comes life.

Through life comes the Force.

Through the Force comes awareness.

Edited by Voice

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Not sure what ether of these have to do with my question but ok.

In all fairness the Jedi of the phantom menaces time have become way to dogmatic in there teachings.

They talk of bringing balance to the force but they like the Sith are upsetting the balance they want. 

Yes the Sith are to evil but on that note the Jedi have become an emotionless band of hermits to set on eradicating evil and ignoring that evil lives in all of us.

emotion is not a bad thing its how you act on it that can be bad or good.

one can be anger and not fall to the darkside as show by Luke on the Deathstar 2.

the idea that i got upset and acted out of anger does not make me evil (Lucas im talking to you lol)

 

 

Lucas doesn't really state that a person that gets upset and acts out of anger is evil. That is no where near the message Lucas sent, as some of his heros got angry and acted out of anger and never were portrayed as evil (best example is Luke). And to portray it a such undercuts Anakins fall, as Anakins issue wasn't that he got angry and acted, it was what he did when he acted out of anger. 

 

And the Jedi aren't emotionless. The Jedi in the PT and TCW show an entire range of emotions. You're taking the Jedi Orders lack of attachment to be too literal. The Jedi fully recognize that what you do with your emotions is good or bad. They just happen to feel that attachment is what leads people to responding badly to emotions. But Mace, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Obi Wan .... I could go on forever .... but the basic point is all of them are shown displaying emotion. These emotions have run the gamut from grief and loss to happiness (seriously Kit Fisto was almost always smiling and having a good time. Maybe that's a feature of his voice actor but that guy seriously looked and sounded mirthful) to even love. 

 

Jedi felt and had emotions. To deny this basic fact is to completely mischaracterize the PT and TCW. 

 

Also the Jedi are far from hermits. 

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@tenchi2a

 

I'm gonna toss my rules-friendly 2 credits in here.

 

Check out the Core Rulebook (not Beginner set), page 104, it details "Knight-Level Play", it's a black-colored sort of side note (at the top of the page).

 

It basically says you have the option of starting your PCs at "Knight-Level".  That is, they start with lightsabers, 9000c of gear, and an extra 150 XP to spend at character creation.

 

Check it... when you, the GM, have granted your players 150xp, they are basically at the in-game, relative power level of what FFG considers to be Jedi Knights, and they should be ready to undertake "The Trials".

Edited by CrunchyDemon

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@tenchi2a

 

I'm gonna toss my rules-friendly 2 credits in here.

 

Check out the Core Rulebook (not Beginner set), page 104, it details "Knight-Level Play", it's a black-colored sort of side note (at the top of the page).

 

It basically says you have the option of starting your PCs at "Knight-Level".  That is, they start with lightsabers, 9000c of gear, and an extra 150 XP to spend at character creation.

 

Check it... when you, the GM, have granted your players 150xp, they are basically at the in-game, relative power level of what FFG considers to be Jedi Knights, and they should be ready to undertake "The Trials".

Know all about this option, but xp does not a Jedi make. 

this would all depend on how you spent the xp.

what if you spend it all on your lightsaber spec. you would have limited force rating and low to no force powers.

so raw xp is not a good judge of if a PC is a knight or not.

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To me to be ready for the Trials a padawan must have:

1.at least a +1 Force rating 

2. some points in a Lightsaber tree

3. Sense,Move,Enhance, and Influence at Basic level at least.

4. some Ranks in lore.

 

Now this can be done with 265 points (115 starting and 150 Knight-level) but I'm not sure I would want to play the results.

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Lucas doesn't really state that a person that gets upset and acts out of anger is evil. That is no where near the message Lucas sent, as some of his heros got angry and acted out of anger and never were portrayed as evil (best example is Luke). And to portray it a such undercuts Anakins fall, as Anakins issue wasn't that he got angry and acted, it was what he did when he acted out of anger. 

 

 

 

 

 

While technically true, Yoda straight up says "once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."  He also equates fear and anger to suffering and the dark side in his famous PT speech.  It's a very easy logical conclusion to make that the Jedi of the PT are very narrow-minded and dogmatic when it comes to things.  Obi-Wan's "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" line is a perfect encapsulation of how hypocrtical and blind the Jedi are to their own failings.  Ulltimately, it was what destroyed them.  Given how Mace treats him, its not surprising to think that Anakin would consider the Jedi Council distant, unapproachable, and judgmental.  And let's face it,he did go to them. He went to Yoda with his prophetic dream and got handed a trite pop psychological book quote for "ancient Jedi Wisdom".  

 

Qui-Gon was the only one who could have trained Anakin, because he saw outside the narrow confines of Jedi Dogma, and could have reached the boy, helped him understand things.  Instead, he got accepted into an order who didn't want him, purely on a dying man's last wish, taught by a man who wasn't a terribly good teacher, and saddled with a prophecy everyone constantly brought up, but wouldn't explain to him.  Finally, after seeing their complete stupidity in handling the "Ahsoka gets framed for murder" situation and their non-apology for hanging her out to dry, Anakin's sudden heel turn in Revenge of the Sith didn't seem so jarring anymore.  I blurted out to all my friends in that scene, "God, no wonder he doesn't hesitate to kill you all."  

 

Hyper-Emotional Young Man + Disapproving out-of-touch Elders + Warm, Open Manipulative Friend == "Are you actually SURPRISED he picked the kindly old man who always supported him over the riddle-spouting puppet and the condescending jackass who always looked at him like a mistake?"  

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The Jedi order was a bunch of nincompoops.

 

If they had not forced Anakin to hide his marriage, he could have gone to them with his problems.

 

They really had a double standard when they allowed Master Ki-Adi-Mundi to have five wives, but humans, a race with robust libidos weren't allowed to marry at all.

It's about attachment. A Jedi Knight is supposed to be a servant of something greater than themself. So Ki-Adi-Mundi who comes from a species where there are very few males, is granted dispensation to marry five women - it's less about one to one attachment for them and more about breeding. Whereas Anakin was putting his attachment to Padmé in conflict with his duties as a Jedi Knight. A marriage is one of the deepest commitments you can make. A Jedi Knight isn't able to give such a commitment because they have already given their lives to the Order. There's no impression I've received that Ki-Adi-Mundi's arrangement, even if it's what counts as "marriage" amongst his people, is the same sort of competing-with-his-duties commitment Anakin's is.

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Keep in mind, any jedi can leave the order to marry. But there was a war on. I strongly suspect the jedi order knew about padme and decided to look the other way to keep one of their post powerful Knights.

 

I always got the impression from Yoda's talk with Anakin about his nightmares that Yoda (at least) had some idea that something was up between Anakin and Padme.

Yoda certainly suspects something about Anakin and Padmé. You see him giving some suspicious looks between them in the Rush Clovis arc in Season 6. He also sends Obi Wan to have a little "chat" with Anakin because he feels his judgement may be clouded about Rush Clovis (Clovis used to go out with Padmé). But it's not clear if anyone knew how far Anakin and Padmé had gone. I get the impression in that arc that Obi Wan doesn't know they're actually lovers. He clearly knows there's a romantic feeling from Anakin toward Padmé because he all but says it when he talks about Anakin having met Satine. But the speech he gives Anakin, about how it's okay to have such feelings, but that he must remember that he is a Jedi and that the two must remain friends only, is very much the speech given to someone you think is about to do something they shouldn't. If he knew they were actually that close, they would have had a very different talk. I don't think Obi Wan realizes the full depth of what's going on until he goes to visit Padmé in Ep. III and sees she is pregnant. "The child... it's Anakin's, isn't it?" That's a genuine question on Obi Wan's part. He's realized at that point but he needs to ask it, to be sure.

So I'm sure Yoda picks up there is something going on - probably more so than Obi Wan who's a little too close to Anakin to believe that he'd be lied to so much. Obi Wan's error is to judge everyone by his own attitude to the order. He really can't believe that Anakin would lie him to that degree.

I think the only one who fully understands Anakin's relationship with Padmé is actually Ahsoka. There's a moment when she leaves where Anakin confesses to her that he "understands wanting to leave the order more than she realizes" - which is a very big thing for him to tell anyone when you think about it. And Ahsoka replies that she "knows". There's a pause on Anakin's face and then an expression of surprise. The only logical thing for them to be talking about really, is Anakin's marriage to Padmé. It's a very touching moment.

These are my interpretations, anyway. Relevant scenes:

Edited by knasserII

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@tenchi2a

 

I'm gonna toss my rules-friendly 2 credits in here.

 

Check out the Core Rulebook (not Beginner set), page 104, it details "Knight-Level Play", it's a black-colored sort of side note (at the top of the page).

 

It basically says you have the option of starting your PCs at "Knight-Level".  That is, they start with lightsabers, 9000c of gear, and an extra 150 XP to spend at character creation.

 

Check it... when you, the GM, have granted your players 150xp, they are basically at the in-game, relative power level of what FFG considers to be Jedi Knights, and they should be ready to undertake "The Trials".

Know all about this option, but xp does not a Jedi make. 

this would all depend on how you spent the xp.

what if you spend it all on your lightsaber spec. you would have limited force rating and low to no force powers.

so raw xp is not a good judge of if a PC is a knight or not.

 

 

But like... it's just a game, man. 

 

Your players are ready for their trials when you are ready to give them.  Use your almighty powers for good.

Edited by CrunchyDemon

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I am curious for this answer as well as we are converting over saga characters to this system.

 

Here is the issues as I see it.  

Conversion: I have already seen the suggestion of 25-50 xp per level.  That seems like a good idea except for the problems it presents to the Jedi class.  At 1st level we are considered Padawans but the book even states that starting characters don't have the skill, discipline, or training of even a padawan.  So how do we balance that issue?

 

Style: There are actually 2 jedi in the party, myself and another.  I was basically going for a lightsaber duelist with my force powers and talents all geared towards the different forms and lightsaber techniques you could use force powers with (like Hawk Bat Swoop for example).  My counterpart was mostly focusing on just force powers in general.  Basically I was martial and he was mystical when it came to the Force.  Now because the way the powers and forms have been split up to recreate our characters we are going to have to multi-specialization to recapture that focus.

Mechanics: At what Force Rating/Lightsaber skill should we be at?  Due to the nature of the Saga system we were decent with our lightsabers as well as a high skill with Use the Force.  How best should we reflect this?

 

Lightsaber: We both constructed our own lightsabers and had special crystals for them.  Should we just port this over?  Due to where i was going I had a regular saber and guard shoto as my offhand.  My counterpart had the single saber.  

 

I will be honest I was just thinking of throwing the idea of being a master lightsaber swordsman out the window and simply focusing on what my character core concept of a defensive character.  So was thinking Soresu Defender/Armorer (this is from Keeping the Peace) for my specializations (I know it eats up my xp) and only getting the base powers Move, Sense, and Enhance. Or should we really try to push for a recreation of our original concepts?  I am just trying to figure out what is easy for us and the GM.

 

My two cents in regards to this:  Again I agree with previous statements of when players get to the point you feel they are ready for the trials.  Obi-wan thought he was ready and technically passed on his first try.  Anakin thought he was ready and failed on his first try but got a pass so that should indicate that while both thought they were ready what they think and what happens is two different things.

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