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amrothe

New Armor Crafting rules *Interesting Personalization or Power Creep*

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So just picked up my copy of Keeping the Peace at my FLGS and wow is it incredibly easy to increase the power of every single member of the party with just 1 mechanic character in the group.

 

While the personalization side seems really awesome some of the armor you can make is pretty crazy.

 

 

A player could take the time and get Armor schematics for each template.

 

Then a player could make a reinforced clothing and score a lessons learned and practice makes perfect for -1 difficulty and a boost.

 

Then you could craft Segmented armor for a 2 difficulty  with more then a little luck or a large dice pool and lots of boost dice from people helping etc you could end up with a suit of armor that has

 

+3 soak +2 Defense and 5 HP

 

For your bounty hunter gadgeteer you can modify this with jury rig +1 ranged defense and tinkerer for 6HP

 

and get a suit with   cortosis quality, superior quality, low friction coating,  and your choice of a strength enhancing system, optical camo or a variety of other fun toys

 

For someone with armor master and improved armor master this gives a suit of armor with defense 4 and a soak of 5, which can't

be pierced or breached.

 

With power armor you could throw in hardened and achieve a defense of 5 and soak of 5 with the same mods

 

You just couldn't get this high before keeping the peace.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Less power creep and more "now worth my time", tbh. Armour in the Star Wars universe is more often a disguise or a place to mount some extra upgrades and equipment than viable protection, and is even less useful in battles where the Force and Lightsabers are in play. Five soak looks pretty broken until you've seen how much damage an experienced player/nemesis can put out per attack.

 

The are exceptions to the rule, of course, and I'm glad that you can now forge those exceptions.

Edited by Azraiel

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Part of this depends on whether a dm will allow access to certain attachments/resources. E.g cortosis is nearly impossible to find and gm might rule that obtaining it is unobtainable. Same with certain upgrades. In addition, a gm may reason that workshop with a lot of raw materials is also a must as this stuff doesn't come in kits, so it requires an extensive period of time to work on it, not necessarily continuously. Thus the player couldn't, or rather shouldn't just churn this out as other armour is simply more convenient.

Otherwise, considering the suit will probably come up to the cost of a great land Speeder? Fair is fair, just it mightn't be appropriate to every campiagn. Bounty hunters, Jedi or rebellion soldiers? Yeah if you get enough time. But in more trade based/social campiagn with mostly skill based I would say this suit isn't appropriate. Too high tech unless your playing a high risk game. But in a game where the empire is the. Big bad? Well, even great soak struggles to stand up to the empires finest gear?

Otherwise as is the players kind of gotta prep a lot of time building up to this point and it's a nice capstone. Just it isn't hard to stop them spiralling out of control since as mentioned some speeders are cheaper then this, unless your business is war there's a lot of places to put that cash.

Edited by LordBritish

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I'm sure we'll go over it when we have a show on it in the next month or so, but a LOT of the power creep prevention is going to require the GM to adhere to two systems that are core to this construction system; Time and Rarity.

 

Finding the materials needed to make the Augmentative Armor is going to be expensive for 2 reasons, Rarity 8 is a hard rarity to overcome, especially in the Outer Rim, and the fact that it's Restricted means the PCs are going to be paying at least double if not more.  So 9,000 at minimum, and the player needs to find it with a good Streetwise check or some other RP mechanism.

 

Then there's the time; assuming a standard 8 hour work day, that armor is going to need about 15 days of work. If the PC wants to skimp on sleep and forego downtime it could be done quicker, but if my PC is going to try that then they're going to be taking setback dice due to exhaustion, possibly as many as 1 per X additional hours (thinking 2 or 4) they want to squeeze into a day of work, or between times when they should be sleeping (which, to be fair, gives all those ranks in Gearhead they're likely to have a chance to flex their might). 

 

So after 120 hours they make their check.  Awesome.  Now, assuming the Dice Gods are with them and they roll massive advantages or triumphs, they have to choose between making the armor super-sweet or making that Armor Schematic, that reduces the difficulty on future suits of that Template (in the case of Augmentative, down to Daunting). Sure they still end with a suit of awesome armor, but having to spend a Triumph or 4 Advantage to lower the difficulty on the Schematic for future attempts is sorely tempting to the Mechanic. Then they do the whole locating-buying-crafting cycle again, and again, and again, finding the Restricted materials, working until their eyes bleed from exhaustion, hoping that they keep succeeding with a Triumph so they can get that difficulty down to Simple, then they can start cranking out suits of hot armor for their group (still does nothing for the cost-to-get-materials, but you know).

 

They also have to do this for every Template they want to knock down to Simple difficulty.  This grinding sounds suspiciously like crafting in MMOs, which if anyone who has played those will tell you "when you're grinding out armor, you're not playing.  You're working." They're not fighting the Empire, or protecting the village they've sworn to protect, or dealing with Obligations (or maybe they are, see below). They're not advancing PLOT. All those other aspects are being neglected while the character works, so it's best if the character squeezes in a few hours of work here, a few hours of work there.  Hyperspace is a good place to get some work in, but then you likely have to set the armor aside when you arrive at your destination and advance the plot some more.

 

What about cutting out all this craziness and buying it from an NPC? If any PC wanted to buy such a suit from an NPC who's cranked out this chain, I'd add a zero to the end of those material costs, at least.  Possibly doubling that too, so a suit of Augmentative armor with +3 Soak, +3 Defense (bonus melee and bonus ranged defense options), +2 hardpoints, and an integral mount the armor would end up costing more than most light freighters and military starfighters.

 

If your PC (party) is built for this, they might be able to make these rolls. A good underworld type might be able to locate the materials, utilizing Black Market Connections (which increases the cost to find the materials more reliably). Your Intellect Monster of a Mechanic may be able to make a Formidable mechanics check reliably, even after adding in an Upgrade due to the GM spending a Destiny Point. Make the PCs work for it, and if they pull it off, they pull it off!  Just remember to spend Threats on the Streetwise check for creative consequences, like maybe the Imperials find out someone is buying up military-grade protective armor in this area of the galaxy and conducts a sting to capture or kill the manufacturer, or a crime lord discovers the same thing and threatens the PCs interests until they agree to make some armor for him and his lieutenants.

 

The reward is incredible, but the journey to get there should be just that; a journey.  Make it part of the story and part of the narrative, not just another piece of hot gear.

Edited by DarthGM

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A player could take the time and get Armor schematics for each template.

 

Then a player could make a reinforced clothing and score a lessons learned and practice makes perfect for -1 difficulty and a boost.

 

Then you could craft Segmented armor for a 2 difficulty  with more then a little luck or a large dice pool and lots of boost dice from people helping etc you could end up with a suit of armor that has

 

*loud tires screeching sound*

 

*record skips*

 

Hold on there, you read Armor Schematic wrong.  Look carefully at it; taking that option lowers the difficulty FOR THAT TEMPLATE,  not for ALL armor templates.  So if you want to reduce the difficulty of Segmented Armor, you have to make Segmented armor and spend the 4 Advantage or 1 Triumph on that suit to make the Segmented Armor easier to make.

 

Spending it on Reinforced Clothing will just knock making Reinforced Clothing down to Easy. 

 

Now, the way I read it is that you can only choose that option once per crafting die roll*. Meaning if you knock Segmented Armor down to Hard difficulty and make another attempt at a suit at that difficulty, you can then spend 4 Advantage/1 Triumph on that second roll to knock the difficulty to Average, and so on down to Simple difficulty. Assuming of course that you're able to generate all that Advantage or Triumphs on two consecutive crafting rolls.

 

And as a final note, the GM is well within his or her right to simply say "Cortosis Armor Attachments are not available, ever."  I've been doing that lately, solves that "no breach/pierce" problem immediately.

 

 

 

*(Otherwise, why put in the comment that Simple is the lowest it can go?)

Edited by DarthGM

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I'm forced to wonder when there will be (better) rules to steal/scavenge material to reduce costs.

 

People have ranks in Utinni! to use after all.  ;)

 

But seriously, how many times have we seen people in the movies scavenging stuff for profit (of various definitions)?  It's a recurring theme/career.

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I hope there are scavenger rules that come up would be awesome.

 

Yes you can take any template down to simple with enough tries.

 

But for segmented its 2500 credits a try. and 10k if you have really good rolls to drop it to simple

 

Since there is a -1 difficulty for your next check, which you can buy for advantage its more cost effective to make quick reinforced clothings at 25 credits

and then make segmented and hope for the template once.

 

repeat another -1 difficulty to your next crafting check on 25 credits and you get a 2 difficulty 1 if you happen to be  a talented sentienel artisan.

 

That should be enough for you get a decent soak 3 defense 2 armor for 5050 credits and some of the down time when you are traveling in hyperspace. If you happen to be an artisan you get soak 3 defense 2 and 6 slots relatively easily and cheaply.

 

More money and time means more tries and better chances to get the armor.

 

As a plot hook that could get you great in with any number of groups, who would prize the increased protection and versatility of your designs.

 

Regarding mods and availability the game does a really good job of making rare things rare, going out and completely banning players from getting certain items seems pretty silly.

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I can see how this has potential to be exploited.  But with the time/cost factors, it is as DarthGM said, very easy to inflict ways to make it harder, or not quite as beneficial.

 

Now that said, walking through this, the initial buy in cost just to get the checks down to simple, would lead me to think there's a multitude of ways in game to dissuade, and "punish" for trying to become an assembly line.  One lone person buying up a lot of particular materials is certainly going to get some attention, and likely none of the good kind.  Whether you want to twist it as Imperial involvement, or a crime syndicate knocking on your door to make you do this for them, with various threats involved, and so on.

 

I think for most parties, you're probably better off just cranking out the armour, and moving on with things.

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I hope there are scavenger rules that come up would be awesome.

 

Yes you can take any template down to simple with enough tries.

 

But for segmented its 2500 credits a try. and 10k if you have really good rolls to drop it to simple

 

Since there is a -1 difficulty for your next check, which you can buy for advantage its more cost effective to make quick reinforced clothings at 25 credits

and then make segmented and hope for the template once.

 

repeat another -1 difficulty to your next crafting check on 25 credits and you get a 2 difficulty 1 if you happen to be  a talented sentienel artisan.

 

That should be enough for you get a decent soak 3 defense 2 armor for 5050 credits and some of the down time when you are traveling in hyperspace. If you happen to be an artisan you get soak 3 defense 2 and 6 slots relatively easily and cheaply.

 

More money and time means more tries and better chances to get the armor.

 

As a plot hook that could get you great in with any number of groups, who would prize the increased protection and versatility of your designs.

 

Regarding mods and availability the game does a really good job of making rare things rare, going out and completely banning players from getting certain items seems pretty silly.

 

Don't forget that buying on the black market jacks up the cost to buy. I have Black Market items cost twice what they normally are listed at (and I thought I got that from somewhere in the book...)  Plus It's 72 WORKING hours for each attempt.  Not 3 days.  72 hours.  9 days worth of 8-hour work days.  Almost 2 full work-weeks (assuming the galaxy far, far away recognizes weekends). And that assumes the PC can work on armor for 8 hours a day.

 

Regarding your example about Reinforced Clothing and Segmented armor; I finally got what you're saying.  Spend 25 credits to make a Reinforced Clothing suit, use 2 Advantages to take the "Lessons Learned" option to "reduce the difficulty of your next craft check by 1", then try to make the Segmented Armor at only a Hard check.  It adds 6 hours to the crafting time on the Segmented Suit, but honestly that could fit.  You use the Reinforced Clothing armor as a proxy for your Segmented Armor (cosplayers do that all the time; make the costume out of cheaper material like cardboard or foam or something else before working with worbala, metal, or sintra plastic, just to make sure your idea works and get a clue how to construct it). It adds time to make the Segmented armor, but you're now working on a proxy template. I actually find that to be a neat path.

 

To get the results you're talking about reliably, the character rolling either needs to be hyper-focused or have sunk hundreds of XP into their character to get there.  Even so, I haven't seen very many times where a player can reliably roll 4 Advantage or a Triumph against a Daunting (or a Hard) check, unless they're rolling 4-5 yellows.  Hell, half the time on a roll vs Average or Easy I've seen them roll a couple Advantages and no Triumphs, and a boatload of Successes (which in this case will only reduce creation time).

 

I get what you're worried about, I just don't think it's that much to worry about. Someone who wants to go this path is going to have to spend a lot of time to get there, time that you (or your GM) needs to account for, both in time management of the character's life and in the narrative of the plotline.

 

And if you don't want to deal with it; don't!  Don't allow these crafting rules in your game.  No one says you have to include them if you're not okay with how they work or lead to power creep among PC gear.

Edited by DarthGM

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Then there is the time spent to get the experience to get the talents that make doing these things easier and to get the credits to do it.

 

No kidding. 

 

I'll be able to speak on this with more certainty about my thoughts I presented above. at my next game session, as I'm sure the Mechanic in my party (who's been angling/waiting for all this crafting stuff for over a year) will finally be able to flex her muscles and start working with these rules. She's a Duros Mechanic with an Int of 5 (bought up from 4) and 3 ranks of Mechanics.  I think she's...200xp or so, earned?  She'll be a good measure of your average "experienced mechanic" attempting this stuff.

 

Oh, and there's already mocking quasi-in-character talk among my PCs about having to tranq her to get her to sleep and take a break instead of doing 120 hours of crafting, straight.

:lol:

Edited by DarthGM

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While I'm ot a huge fan of an assembly line sort of crafting (admittedly, I haven't read the rules yet), I don't see the issue with making personalized armor that's better than off the rack for a supplier.  One's made specifically for you or someone you have the specs for, so to speak.

 

The other is off the rack generic examples of a type meant to be accessible to a wide and varied target audience.

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I haven't picked up the book yet, I'm mostly basing this on what everyone has said here, but the armor crafting rules are one of the biggest reasons I want to get this book (I'm only holding off because there are a couple of suspicious looking presents under my tree that are splat book shaped).  The new species, and force powers sound good too, even the tonfa lightsaber, but at the end of the day, being able to make a personal set of armor, even if it is an investment, just sounds great.

 

Another personal touch to attach you to the character.  Another item to make a hook if it ever gets stolen.  And so on.

 

I really hope it's Keeping the Peace under the tree... or I'll be rushing to my LGS on Boxing Day.

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I haven't picked up the book yet, I'm mostly basing this on what everyone has said here, but the armor crafting rules are one of the biggest reasons I want to get this book (I'm only holding off because there are a couple of suspicious looking presents under my tree that are splat book shaped).  The new species, and force powers sound good too, even the tonfa lightsaber, but at the end of the day, being able to make a personal set of armor, even if it is an investment, just sounds great.

 

Another personal touch to attach you to the character.  Another item to make a hook if it ever gets stolen.  And so on.

 

I really hope it's Keeping the Peace under the tree... or I'll be rushing to my LGS on Boxing Day.

Boxing Day? That's Canadian, isn't it?

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I haven't picked up the book yet, I'm mostly basing this on what everyone has said here, but the armor crafting rules are one of the biggest reasons I want to get this book (I'm only holding off because there are a couple of suspicious looking presents under my tree that are splat book shaped).  The new species, and force powers sound good too, even the tonfa lightsaber, but at the end of the day, being able to make a personal set of armor, even if it is an investment, just sounds great.

 

Another personal touch to attach you to the character.  Another item to make a hook if it ever gets stolen.  And so on.

 

I really hope it's Keeping the Peace under the tree... or I'll be rushing to my LGS on Boxing Day.

Boxing Day? That's Canadian, isn't it?

 

 

Yes.  If my British wife isn't lying to me, it's also celebrated in England.

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I haven't picked up the book yet, I'm mostly basing this on what everyone has said here, but the armor crafting rules are one of the biggest reasons I want to get this book (I'm only holding off because there are a couple of suspicious looking presents under my tree that are splat book shaped).  The new species, and force powers sound good too, even the tonfa lightsaber, but at the end of the day, being able to make a personal set of armor, even if it is an investment, just sounds great.

 

Another personal touch to attach you to the character.  Another item to make a hook if it ever gets stolen.  And so on.

 

I really hope it's Keeping the Peace under the tree... or I'll be rushing to my LGS on Boxing Day.

Boxing Day? That's Canadian, isn't it?

 

 

Yes.  If my British wife isn't lying to me, it's also celebrated in England.

 

 

Oh, we celebrate it in New England too...

927628_boxing-day1_jpg3093451cd8f58e702a

 

It just means something different here...

:D

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Back on topic, I actually think all of this top end armor/defense is a good thing. There are already plenty of examples in this game where the slogan, a good defense is a good offense is evidently clear (looking at you space combat and autofire). There are numerous examples on these very forums where players one shot the BBEG because they were able to go first and spit out a bunch of damage down range. At high levels of the game, where this type of armor is aimed at, going first or at least going before the bad guys do, is critical. As a decent roll can one shot or at least knock out PC. 

 

Also, FWI, it is far easier to get pierce/accurate on weapons than it is to get cortise weave (which is the only real defensive mod in the game). Hell, for jedi's it is easier to get breach. Which then makes having cortsis mandatory for the BBEG.

 

So in short, bring on the armor/defense. The game could use some. 

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I haven't picked up the book yet, I'm mostly basing this on what everyone has said here, but the armor crafting rules are one of the biggest reasons I want to get this book (I'm only holding off because there are a couple of suspicious looking presents under my tree that are splat book shaped).  The new species, and force powers sound good too, even the tonfa lightsaber, but at the end of the day, being able to make a personal set of armor, even if it is an investment, just sounds great.

 

Another personal touch to attach you to the character.  Another item to make a hook if it ever gets stolen.  And so on.

 

I really hope it's Keeping the Peace under the tree... or I'll be rushing to my LGS on Boxing Day.

Boxing Day? That's Canadian, isn't it?

 

 

Yes.  If my British wife isn't lying to me, it's also celebrated in England.

 

 

Having a British wife myself, and having been to London for a few December 26ths, I can confirm that Boxing Day is indeed celebrated there. 

 

Unless of course it was all an elaborate hoax to deceive me...  :ph34r:

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I haven't picked up the book yet, I'm mostly basing this on what everyone has said here, but the armor crafting rules are one of the biggest reasons I want to get this book (I'm only holding off because there are a couple of suspicious looking presents under my tree that are splat book shaped).  The new species, and force powers sound good too, even the tonfa lightsaber, but at the end of the day, being able to make a personal set of armor, even if it is an investment, just sounds great.

 

Another personal touch to attach you to the character.  Another item to make a hook if it ever gets stolen.  And so on.

 

I really hope it's Keeping the Peace under the tree... or I'll be rushing to my LGS on Boxing Day.

Boxing Day? That's Canadian, isn't it?

 

 

Yes.  If my British wife isn't lying to me, it's also celebrated in England.

 

 

Having a British wife myself, and having been to London for a few December 26ths, I can confirm that Boxing Day is indeed celebrated there. 

 

Unless of course it was all an elaborate hoax to deceive me...  :ph34r:

 

You got got Son!

 

I know that is awful English, it was intentional...

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