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Nitratas

Half big ship point value, MOV and a win

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Hello,

 

so after reading the new tournament rules i wanted a clarification because it seems that now it explicitly says the half big ship value is calculated for MOV but not for determining the winner

 

"When calculating Margin of Victory (see “Margin of Victory” below), each player receives half the total squad point value (rounded down) of each enemy large ship whose combined total hull and shields"

 

So imagine situation: time ends and at the end of a match you have a super dash (58pt) with 1 hull left and your opponent has alive corran horn (42pt) left. 

 

According to previous edition of tournament rules corran horn player would win with a MOV of  113 am i right? (Destroyed 29+42 and lost 58)

 

According to recent faq dash player would win but how would MOV be calculated? the difference for winner would be -13 negative so would winner get 87 MOV and the loser 113?

Edited by Nitratas

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I think under the previous edition, for the purpose of determining the result of the game, the calculations would be:

 

Super Dash player.  Lost 42+29 (half of dash) for 71.

Corran Horn - lost 58.  

 

Corran horn wins. 

 

Calculation of MOV (old edition)  Corran Horn 113, Superdash 87

 

Under the new edition, 

 

Super dash lost 42 points. Corran lost 58 points - SuperDash wins with a margin of 16 points.

 

For new MOV, however, the margin is only 13 points (because the calculation takes into account the half points rule).  Also, because the half points count as "squad points" for the purposes of MOV, SuperDash actually has less squad points that Corran Horn (per the old calculation).

 

So, I reckon the MOV is SuperDash 87, Corran 113.

 

tl;dr  Under the new rules, SuperDash wins 5 points with MOV 87.  Corran Horn loses (0 points) with MOV 113.

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I think under the previous edition, for the purpose of determining the result of the game, the calculations would be:

 

Super Dash player.  Lost 42+29 (half of dash) for 71.

Corran Horn - lost 58.  

 

Corran horn wins. 

 

Calculation of MOV (old edition)  Corran Horn 113, Superdash 87

 

Under the new edition, 

 

Super dash lost 42 points. Corran lost 58 points - SuperDash wins with a margin of 16 points.

 

For new MOV, however, the margin is only 13 points (because the calculation takes into account the half points rule).  Also, because the half points count as "squad points" for the purposes of MOV, SuperDash actually has less squad points that Corran Horn (per the old calculation).

 

So, I reckon the MOV is SuperDash 87, Corran 113.

 

tl;dr  Under the new rules, SuperDash wins 5 points with MOV 87.  Corran Horn loses (0 points) with MOV 113.

If I follow correctly, I think your Calculations are correct and the impression of win-loss as the rules are now written are correct.

The thing I still want to know from FFG is whether or not they intended to change the rule this way or if it simply was a poor edit of the document.

I don't understand why they would intentionally make this change after such a short period.

We all learned how the new rule worked and factored it into how we play - only to have it changed again???

I am planning to go to a tournament in early January and it would be nice to have something definitive from FFG on this before I go.

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I reckon FFG had to change the rule because big ships would have disappeared altogether once the Tractor Beams and the Long Range Scanners hit the meta.  Particularly the Long Range Scanners, because that means that small ships with LRS and Concussion Missiles will fire TL Focussed shots.  That should reliably do 2 to 4 Damage to a big ship.  LRS also makes Plasma torps way more effective.

 

Combined with the Tractor Beam, missile/torp equipped small ship swarms could easily get half points off in one turn and can probably nearly kill the big ship outright in the first pass.

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I reckon FFG had to change the rule because big ships would have disappeared altogether once the Tractor Beams and the Long Range Scanners hit the meta.  Particularly the Long Range Scanners, because that means that small ships with LRS and Concussion Missiles will fire TL Focussed shots.  That should reliably do 2 to 4 Damage to a big ship.  LRS also makes Plasma torps way more effective.

 

Combined with the Tractor Beam, missile/torp equipped small ship swarms could easily get half points off in one turn and can probably nearly kill the big ship outright in the first pass.

This might be a reasonable explanation, however it still seems a bit short sided that they changed the rule after only a few months of play.

I've sent in a question to FFG and hopefully they will respond to me to clarify.

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I reckon FFG had to change the rule because big ships would have disappeared altogether once the Tractor Beams and the Long Range Scanners hit the meta.  Particularly the Long Range Scanners, because that means that small ships with LRS and Concussion Missiles will fire TL Focussed shots.  That should reliably do 2 to 4 Damage to a big ship.  LRS also makes Plasma torps way more effective.

 

Combined with the Tractor Beam, missile/torp equipped small ship swarms could easily get half points off in one turn and can probably nearly kill the big ship outright in the first pass.

This might be a reasonable explanation, however it still seems a bit short sided that they changed the rule after only a few months of play.

I've sent in a question to FFG and hopefully they will respond to me to clarify.

 

Excellent idea, look forward to the response (or the revised Tournament rules ! :D)

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It'll be a real shame if this is not just some error in wording on FFG's part. The meta has gotten so much better since Fat Turretwing squads stopped being 70% of what you'd face at every tournament.

 

If they change it back the game will return to a bunch of 10 year olds smearing ice cream on their face manuevering their ships around for no reason as if their turrets won't have shots on each other, with everyone collectively insisting that turning X-Wing into something with the tactical depth of Chutes and Ladders is a good thing.

 

Can't wait for another year of a ruined meta. Oh yeah, and Dash gets an entirely green dial, ******* EXACTLY what this game needed.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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There's an Australian FB post circulating, apparently Morgan Reid dropped an email to Alex Davy, who confirmed that the intent was opponents of large base ships get half points for both calculation of squad points for determining the win, but also for MOV.  So, business as usual.  Alex noted that he'll sort that out post the Xmas break.

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I also shot an email off to FFG and will probably play Judge/TO at a tournament this weekend.  There has been a lot of confusion.  If I don't hear anything back by the weekend I will most likely go with rules of old till this gets straightened out.

 

When they changed to the half-point rule it took a revision or two to get things right, if I remember correctly.  Being against the Christmas break FFG employees are most likely (and rightfully so) spending some down time with their families.

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I also shot an email off to FFG and will probably play Judge/TO at a tournament this weekend. There has been a lot of confusion. If I don't hear anything back by the weekend I will most likely go with rules of old till this gets straightened out.

When they changed to the half-point rule it took a revision or two to get things right, if I remember correctly. Being against the Christmas break FFG employees are most likely (and rightfully so) spending some down time with their families.

I am guessing that they have received a number of emails from many of us wondering the same thing. I am attending an escalation tournament on Jan 9 and a buddy is going to a Store Championship on the same day. Lucky you if this is not resolved quickly. I can see people arguing both sides to their benefit. So this misunderstanding could lead to anger...which leads to hate..which eventually leads to lightsabers being drawn on both sides of the gaming table. Edited by USCGrad90

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There's an Australian FB post circulating, apparently Morgan Reid dropped an email to Alex Davy, who confirmed that the intent was opponents of large base ships get half points for both calculation of squad points for determining the win, but also for MOV.  So, business as usual.  Alex noted that he'll sort that out post the Xmas break.

 

This is correct.

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It'll be a real shame if this is not just some error in wording on FFG's part. The meta has gotten so much better since Fat Turretwing squads stopped being 70% of what you'd face at every tournament.

 

If they change it back the game will return to a bunch of 10 year olds smearing ice cream on their face manuevering their ships around for no reason as if their turrets won't have shots on each other, with everyone collectively insisting that turning X-Wing into something with the tactical depth of Chutes and Ladders is a good thing.

 

Can't wait for another year of a ruined meta. Oh yeah, and Dash gets an entirely green dial, ******* EXACTLY what this game needed.

I must be missing something how does dash get the green dail?

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It'll be a real shame if this is not just some error in wording on FFG's part. The meta has gotten so much better since Fat Turretwing squads stopped being 70% of what you'd face at every tournament.

 

If they change it back the game will return to a bunch of 10 year olds smearing ice cream on their face manuevering their ships around for no reason as if their turrets won't have shots on each other, with everyone collectively insisting that turning X-Wing into something with the tactical depth of Chutes and Ladders is a good thing.

 

Can't wait for another year of a ruined meta. Oh yeah, and Dash gets an entirely green dial, ******* EXACTLY what this game needed.

I must be missing something how does dash get the green dail?

 

Kanan Jarus (Crew) from the Ghost expansion allows a friendly ship at range to remove a stress token with a white maneuver once per turn.

This includes the ship he is crewing, effectively turning all white maneuvers on that ship green (but with more functionality, as you can do it for another ship instead).

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I still say this rule penalizes Scum & Villainy more than any other faction. Imperials and Rebels each have a ship that is 9 overall health but they are small based ships. If you play two tweaked out Punishers vs 2 Brobots and time expired with each of the four ships at one overall health, the Brobots would lose simply because they fought small based ships. The spirit of the rule is to get "credit" for all that hard work punching holes in large health ships, yet Rebels and Imps get over. I feel this rule is unfair and should be amended to reflect overall health at 10 rather than the size of the base. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Lue.

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If you play two fully loaded Punishers against Brobots and the game ends with all four ships one damage away from destruction, the Brobots _did_ lose. How do you not kill those overpriced tube packs?

Miranda with 3PO and another K seems like a better example if what you're going for.

And if we start seeing small ship point fortressing to the same degree as we used to see large, I suppose they'll do something about it. But since Scum didn't have any viable large ship point fortresses before either, this change arguably helps them.

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I think under the previous edition, for the purpose of determining the result of the game, the calculations would be:

 

Super Dash player.  Lost 42+29 (half of dash) for 71.

Corran Horn - lost 58.  

 

Corran horn wins. 

 

Calculation of MOV (old edition)  Corran Horn 113, Superdash 87

 

Under the new edition, 

 

Super dash lost 42 points. Corran lost 58 points - SuperDash wins with a margin of 16 points.

 

For new MOV, however, the margin is only 13 points (because the calculation takes into account the half points rule).  Also, because the half points count as "squad points" for the purposes of MOV, SuperDash actually has less squad points that Corran Horn (per the old calculation).

 

So, I reckon the MOV is SuperDash 87, Corran 113.

 

tl;dr  Under the new rules, SuperDash wins 5 points with MOV 87.  Corran Horn loses (0 points) with MOV 113.

you're mistaken.

in the old rules you did not get HALF OF DASH

back then Dash would win

 

now Horn will win

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I received an official email response today on this from Frank Brooks at FFG:

"For large ships whose combined total hull and shields that have been reduced to half or below of the total squad point value of that ship, this is calculated not only for determining Margin of Victory, but also for determining who has won the match. This is not a change from the previous iteration of the rules..."

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I received an official email response today on this from Frank Brooks at FFG:

"For large ships whose combined total hull and shields that have been reduced to half or below of the total squad point value of that ship, this is calculated not only for determining Margin of Victory, but also for determining who has won the match. This is not a change from the previous iteration of the rules..."

That's exactly what we were waiting with baited breath to hear. Return to business as usual everybody :)

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Will we see a torunament rules update to clarify this? in my region people reads current torunament rules understanding there is no penalty to decide who win the match regarding big ships, so an email or post is not... official. People refers to official tournament rules to reach a conclusion.

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The store owner doesnt count these reported emails as official, is there any way to convince him?

Have him contact FFG for an official response prior to the tournament if you are concerned and he will not accept what is relayed here.

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