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Tailsgod

So lets talk about Kylo Ren (SUPER SPOILERS AHEAD)

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Or should I say Kylo Ben...

Okay I did warn you that there would be super spoilers in this thread

Anyway now that that's aside

 

I find Ben Solo the most interesting character in this new trilogy
(Mind you I love Ren, Finn, Poe, and BB-8 and think they all have interesting characters but Ben has a lot to dissect)

So Ben/Kylo is conflicted in this movie. The light is calling him back but he desires to be a part of the dark side. 

 

In order to secure his fall to the dark side he does the only thing that he thinks will make it impossible for him to go back

 

He kills his father Han Solo....

 

 

Now I do not think that killing Han worked. I still think the conflict within Ben is still there. In fact I think that his story will parallel Anakin's redemption story but with one key difference

I do not think Ben Solo will die as part of his redemption. 

I think that killing his father will lead to him being even further conflicted within the next movie

Symbolically speaking unlike Anakin he hasn't been scarred by the dark side and doesn't need the mask to keep him alive. He still has the possibility to be saved. His first scar that he received because of the dark side came after he killed han, and that scar will forever be a part of him. 

I can't see them killing Ben at the end of this trilogy, and if they do I feel like that would be a missed opportunity.

He should represent the dangers of the Dark side but also the possibility to be redeemed.

Am I angry at him for killing Han? Sure

But I do not want him to die, I want him to be redeemed.
I want the son of Han Solo and Leia Organa to live because story wise it would make more sense for him to live

his story is fundamentally different from Anakin's
He has his parents and a bunch of people wanting him to be saved

His light isn't beyond saving

He is not lost yet

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There's going to be no "Aw shucks, you killed your dad in cold blood, but you were just confused. Welcome back!" He killed Han. He's Dark Side for good.

He's going to come back as one ticked off hombre after being bested by a pre-Padawan nascent Force user, as well. it would be silly if he turned to the Light side at this point. If anything, we'll learn more about his past and what horrors he did that drove Luke to run away.

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But surely, if he returns, he cant just be back, go to Luke again or something. He surely has to be tried and convicted by a New Republic court as murderer? You cannot put that down to just "in a war there are casualties". Wasnt even a Jedi vs (fallen) Jedi thing. No exceptions for Solo and Skywalker families, I hope. Doesnt make sense to come back for that, and any other consequence would really be a joke.

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While at first I was furious at how they Killed Han, I soon remembered that Harrison Ford asked Lucas to kill Han during the OT. JJ gave him his wish, so I can accept that.

As for Ren...It's strange. I like the reverse-corruption thing they have going on. He feels guilty about being such a jerk (much like how I do when I try to play dark side in games :P) I'd be okay with Ren not dying. He just doesn't feel like he's completely beyond redemption.

I do think that his battle with Rey will help. He's pretty severely wounded now, and that tends to make people grumpy. Bowcaster wounds, lightsaber-face, etc. He can't be very happy about it.

 

Who knows! We'll find out in 2017

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Part of Anakin's redemption - and thus part of the mythos of the redemption of Dark Siders in Star Wars in general - is that it comes at great personal cost. 

Thus far we have three who have turned back from the Dark Side: Anakin, Quinlan, and Asajj. Anakin and Asajj both got dead in the process, sacrificing themselves to save loved ones. And Quinlan... well, we don't know what happened to Quinlan, but he was basically in Jedi rehab last anyone knew. 

I don't think that letting Ben Solo walk away unscathed would cheapen the sacrifices of Asajj and Anakin, but... I don't see it happening. If Quinlan managed to make it back to the light, it was a long, arduous process. Even Asajj's redemption was a long, arduous process, in which she lost pretty much everything, and only completed when she gave her life. The redemptions of Asajj and Quinlan took far too long for a movie or a movie trilogy, so I would expect that a redemption that Ben survives is going to take far too long for the movies and that he will, therefore, most likely have to give his life to achieve that redemption. 

And, ultimately, it's probably worth bearing in mind that you can't save everyone - and not everyone is worth saving. Kylo Ren wouldn't be the first Dark Sider to die unforgiven. 

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Part of Anakin's redemption - and thus part of the mythos of the redemption of Dark Siders in Star Wars in general - is that it comes at great personal cost. 

Thus far we have three who have turned back from the Dark Side: Anakin, Quinlan, and Asajj. Anakin and Asajj both got dead in the process, sacrificing themselves to save loved ones. And Quinlan... well, we don't know what happened to Quinlan, but he was basically in Jedi rehab last anyone knew. 

I don't think that letting Ben Solo walk away unscathed would cheapen the sacrifices of Asajj and Anakin, but... I don't see it happening. If Quinlan managed to make it back to the light, it was a long, arduous process. Even Asajj's redemption was a long, arduous process, in which she lost pretty much everything, and only completed when she gave her life. The redemptions of Asajj and Quinlan took far too long for a movie or a movie trilogy, so I would expect that a redemption that Ben survives is going to take far too long for the movies and that he will, therefore, most likely have to give his life to achieve that redemption. 

And, ultimately, it's probably worth bearing in mind that you can't save everyone - and not everyone is worth saving. Kylo Ren wouldn't be the first Dark Sider to die unforgiven.

Well I never said I want it to be easy

Make that little bantha fodder suffer for his redemption

I just think there are too many story possibilities for them to flat kill him in ep IX

He could represent the struggle between light and dark and his redemption could be powerful

Especially if everyone doesn't just flat out forgive him for what happens

I think its just a waste to write it off as well he's done too much so he has to die

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Here's a real important question: Why Ben? Why not Obi-Wan? 

Obi-Wan was Kenobi's real name. Ben was his pseudonym. 

That's like naming your kid TJ after a grandfather named Thomas John "TJ" Smith, instead of naming him Thomas. 

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Well, before the canon-wipe, Han & Leia had three kids: Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina. Luke and Mara Jade had a couple, one of which was Ben (I've never actually read the books where this is all mentioned, this is just what I remember from various wookiepedia articles).

Jacen turned to the dark side at some point. EVII seems to be paying tribute to the old EU in this way, using names and plotlilnes of all the children to shape the new story. I like it.

 

As for your question, Luke knew him only as Ben. He knew R2 referred to him as Obi-Wan, but for as long as he knew him, Luke knew him as Ben. Even after his identity was revealed, Luke still yelled "Ben" when he saw him die. They named Ben Solo after Kenobi as tribute to Luke's friend and brief mentor, and used the name Luke knew him by.

Edited by UnfairBanana

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I bet that's Kylo Ben's problem: He was named after a pseudonym. If they'd have named him Obi-Wan Solo, everything would have been fine. But nooo... they had to go and screw that up. 

;)

ETA: Had a mild epiphany. What if Ben is the nickname for Obi-Wan? What if Kylo Ren's birthname is Obi-Wan Solo? He's just called Ben because, well, same reason someone named Aleksandr is called Sasha. 

Edited by Vigil

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Nice reversal of Luke vader. Now it's the son who fell to the dark side, not the father.

 

And I know the sith are all about the anger, but him lightsabering a console out of frustration makes him look like an anoying five year old.

 

I'll bet if he becmes a dark lord his name will be Darth Emo.

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What I found weird about him is that he seems to be drawn to the light but wants to be dark. Most people want to be light but are drawn to the dark in order to get something. I don't quite understand the intellectual desire to be Dark Side, but a gut pull to the Light. What is he trying to accomplish with the Dark Side?

Put another way, why does he have to fight the Light back? The Dark Side is supposed to be quick and easy, which is why it's seductive to use it to get what you want. Plenty of Jedi seem to fall to the Dark Side thinking they're still good, and athe leat Force-neutral. Ren seems to be actively pursuing the Dark Side, and we were given no reason for this.

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What if Kylo Ren is the Snape of Star Wars? What I mean is, suppose he still truly loved his father, and the act of killing him broke his heart, but was necessary in order to prove his loyalty to Supreme Leader Snoke and the First Order?

 

There is a lot of complication in the fact that he promises to "finish what [Darth Vader] started," if we assume it's Vader, not Anakin, to whom he is speaking. Anakin's final act was the destruction of the Emperor, but the overcoming of evil in the galaxy goes far beyond the defeat of one man, even a man as vile as Palpatine. But a regime as powerful as the First Order cannot be destroyed so easily, and Kylo believes that the only way to bring Snoke down is to join him, embracing the dark side as a means to an end.

Edited by MarthWMaster

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So you think he's following Luke's path from Dark Empire. Following the Dark path to destroy it from within.... his costume really screams Luke's Dark Empire one too actually. But he's super pissed at Fin calling him traitor so does seem very much indoctrinated to the First Order.

 

star-wars-the-force-awakens2-600x455.jpg

 

The-Power-Of-The-Force-2-Luke-Skywalker-

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I'll bet if he becmes a dark lord his name will be Darth Emo.

 

Only if Sith, there are other paths to the Force of course, it's not just Jedi and Sith.

 

There's the nightsisters from Dathomir for one, or the Father/Son/Daughter of Mortis. Possibly the Knights of Ren are a like organization.

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Here's a real important question: Why Ben? Why not Obi-Wan? 

Obi-Wan was Kenobi's real name. Ben was his pseudonym. 

That's like naming your kid TJ after a grandfather named Thomas John "TJ" Smith, instead of naming him Thomas.

Leia was at least familiar with Bail telling her about Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi knight and General during the Clone Wars, though she didn't really get to meet the guy. I think all three (Luke, Leia and Han) wanted to honor his sacrifice on the Death Star, as well as recognize that without Ben they would t have been brought together in the first place. Ben was the name he used when he wasn't trying to save the galaxy by leading armies or fighting wars, it was the name he used when he was looking out for his friend's kid, keeping the hope of the future safe. Han and Luke knew him as Ben and owed him more than they would ever know. And naming a child Ben would honor Kenobi as 'Force-father', I guess(like a godfather, maybe)

Besides, Ben Solo sounds a million times better than Obi-Wan Solo. Or Jacen. Or Anakin.

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and we were given no reason for this.

 

Yet. This trilogy still has 2 more episodes to go, after all.

Sure, but the movie should stand alone as well. A hint of something would be good.

 

 

Should it? Unlike ANH this movie has always been envisioned, written, as a trilogy. A part of a bigger whole.

 

You wouldn't expect ESB or Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring to stand alone would you.

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I think so.  Standing alone doesn't mean no loose ends or an end to the story, but especially as a setup movie, it should indicate why people do what they do, at least if the character's backstory is built on betrayal.  "Our son turned evil because he is too much like his grandpa, who was evil" doesn't make a lot of sense.  Anakin turned for a lot of reasons, not because he was just evil inside, and that's basically Ren's backstory.  If nobody knows why he went all red-lightsaber, someone could at least have said a line about that.

 

It's just a weird character treatment.  They talk about getting him to turn back good like they're trying to get him off drugs or out of a weird cult, not like he killed a bunch of people.  That was my impression, anyway.  

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First Order is a weird cult and the DS is his drug. 

 

I hate Kylo Ren. Not in a he's a bad character or anything but in a he is a great villain and I hate him for what he did. I never hated Vader. Hell we all thought Vader was bad ass cool. Which really we should never like the villain. 

 

I left the theatre saying he better not be redeemed. I want him dead for what he did and has yet to do. He's nuts and beyond the point of redemption. 

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Nice reversal of Luke vader. Now it's the son who fell to the dark side, not the father.

 

And I know the sith are all about the anger, but him lightsabering a console out of frustration makes him look like an anoying five year old.

 

I'll bet if he becmes a dark lord his name will be Darth Emo.

But that would make an interesting card...

Crew- Kylo Ren

Squad points- 3

After you attack, you must discard an upgrade card on this ship. The defender must then suffer 1 critical or 2 normal damage (your choice).

If there are no more upgrade cards on this ship, deal 1 damage to this ship.

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I think Ren might just be the most interesting villain -- or indeed character -- to come out of Star Wars. He's just such a huge departure from the normal struggles we've seen, while still being very much in line with the same thematic elements. He's the son, not the father. He's seduced by the light, not by the dark; he wholeheartedly believes that the Dark Side is right, but feels the draw of good.

 

I actually really liked those little temper tantrums in TFA. They show how wild Ren is, but also that there's still some essential decency about him. He doesn't kill the minion, and that's not just to upset a common trope; it's to show that he's not an idiot, and that he doesn't kill without need. He's an absolutely brutal villain.

 

Anyway. Those are just my thoughts. I'm really looking forward to seeing where his story goes, redemption or not (I think it's too early to tell at this point). I think it has to come down between a confrontation between Ben and Leia in the end, though; she's put too much effort into avoiding him. But what happens then . . . who knows?

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