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Any good standard-like gameplay modes with Raider?

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I just got an Imperial Raider.  I know there are Epic rules I need to know, such as Energy.  However, my gaming buddies and I are wondering how we can best use the Raider so that gameplay most closely matches the regular 100 point standard mode.  Would it make sense, for example, for a side to play as Imperials and use the Raider at 100 points and for the other side to play as Rebels and make a 100 point build?  Or would that be a massacre for one of the sides?

 

Advice?

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The Raider really doesn't make any sense in a 100 point game. First, you would still need to know the Energy rules and other such rules for Huge ships anyway, because the Raider's primary weapon has an ability to shoot twice if you spend energy, you need to know how to move it, etc.

 

Secondly, a Raider (or Rebel Corvette, for that matter) without any support from other ships is almost guaranteed to lose. All the opponent has to do is get a couple of ships behind you to win. Since the Raider can't fire behind itself, and it only turns at a rate of 30o per round, it can't ever shake off a fighter on its tail.

 

Thirdly, the Huge ships are massively underpowered without upgrades, even in Epic games. You usually need to spend at least 20 points on upgrades for the Raider to really be useful.

 

Your best bet is to make an effort to actually learn the Huge ship rules and play either a real Epic game or the scenarios that come in the rule book packaged with the Raider. They're really not as complex as you might think, and no one will care if you make a few mistakes the first few times you try. You can even try doing a semi-Epic game at 200 points on a slightly-larger-than-normal play area (maybe 4'x3'?), if you're really hesitant about going all the way to the full 300 points of Epic.

 

It's incomplete, but I'm actually working on a guide to Epic play that might be helpful to you. Here's the link to my blog where I'm writing it: http://teamcovenant.com/edgeofdreams/

Edited by EdgeOfDreams

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The naked cost of the Raider is 100 pts with no crew, secondary weapons or upgrades. The raider player will get creamed. Run the scenarios that came with the ship. They're actually fun and once you get the idea of flying the wedge they only last a little longer than a standard 100 pt game.

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The Raider really doesn't make any sense in a 100 point game. First, you would still need to know the Energy rules and other such rules for Huge ships anyway, because the Raider's primary weapon has an ability to shoot twice if you spend energy, you need to know how to move it, etc.

 

Secondly, a Raider (or Rebel Corvette, for that matter) without any support from other ships is almost guaranteed to lose. All the opponent has to do is get a couple of ships behind you to win. Since the Raider can't fire behind itself, and it only turns at a rate of 30o per round, it can't ever shake off a fighter on its tail.

 

Thirdly, the Huge ships are massively underpowered without upgrades, even in Epic games. You usually need to spend at least 20 points on upgrades for the Raider to really be useful.

 

Your best bet is to make an effort to actually learn the Huge ship rules and play either a real Epic game or the scenarios that come in the rule book packaged with the Raider. They're really not as complex as you might think, and no one will care if you make a few mistakes the first few times you try. You can even try doing a semi-Epic game at 200 points on a slightly-larger-than-normal play area (maybe 4'x3'?), if you're really hesitant about going all the way to the full 300 points of Epic.

 

It's incomplete, but I'm actually working on a guide to Epic play that might be helpful to you. Here's the link to my blog where I'm writing it: http://teamcovenant.com/edgeofdreams/

 

Thanks.  This is very interesting.  I would've thought that the Raider with its regain shields ability and ability to attack twice would be the one who massacres, but apparently it's the other way around.

 

I think I might try the Scenario (e.g. Mission 1, which has Raider + 2 TIE Advanced vs. stuff).

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The Raider really doesn't make any sense in a 100 point game. First, you would still need to know the Energy rules and other such rules for Huge ships anyway, because the Raider's primary weapon has an ability to shoot twice if you spend energy, you need to know how to move it, etc.

 

Secondly, a Raider (or Rebel Corvette, for that matter) without any support from other ships is almost guaranteed to lose. All the opponent has to do is get a couple of ships behind you to win. Since the Raider can't fire behind itself, and it only turns at a rate of 30o per round, it can't ever shake off a fighter on its tail.

 

Thirdly, the Huge ships are massively underpowered without upgrades, even in Epic games. You usually need to spend at least 20 points on upgrades for the Raider to really be useful.

 

Your best bet is to make an effort to actually learn the Huge ship rules and play either a real Epic game or the scenarios that come in the rule book packaged with the Raider. They're really not as complex as you might think, and no one will care if you make a few mistakes the first few times you try. You can even try doing a semi-Epic game at 200 points on a slightly-larger-than-normal play area (maybe 4'x3'?), if you're really hesitant about going all the way to the full 300 points of Epic.

 

It's incomplete, but I'm actually working on a guide to Epic play that might be helpful to you. Here's the link to my blog where I'm writing it: http://teamcovenant.com/edgeofdreams/

 

Thanks.  This is very interesting.  I would've thought that the Raider with its regain shields ability and ability to attack twice would be the one who massacres, but apparently it's the other way around.

 

I think I might try the Scenario (e.g. Mission 1, which has Raider + 2 TIE Advanced vs. stuff).

Good choice. For the Raider player, keep it as easy (simple) as possible to start. The game now has a new sequence with huge ships. Remember the Raider moves last. You'll get to run over a rebel or two which is always fun.

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And there is nothing keeping you from using it as an obstacle in your standard games. Really, that's a lot of fun too: scenery is important in any miniatures game, and for X-Wing scenery doesn't get much better than a capital ship. Now you're fighting over something that is really worth it, rather than a few rocks.

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Are there any alternate rules to make the ships more useful for their points or the game experience more streamlined? From my limited experience epic just seems like something people are going to try once or twice and just shelf the model. Even without considering you can just take 8 or 12 Ys and not bother with capital ships at all.

Edited by Hondo Ohnaka

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Are there any alternate rules to make the ships more useful for their points or the game experience more streamlined? From my limited experience epic just seems like something people are going to try once or twice and just shelf the model. Even without considering you can just take 8 or 12 Ys and not bother with capital ships at all.

 

Honestly, with the most recent change to make Huge ships start with full energy on both the ship and all secondary weapons, they're fairly useful already. The Gozanti is going to take things a step further with the new Modification upgrades that are going to make Huge ships substantially stronger and more versatile in their build options.

 

As for streamlining the game experience, I don't know of any particular rule change that would both make a big difference and still be fun to me. What part of Epic with Huge ships seems too complicated or difficult? There's a lot of little things you can do to help Epic games go faster, but they have less to do with the rules and more to do with things like how you keep your stuff organized during the game, how you plan your dials, and so on.

 

I'd really be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this, since it will give me more ideas for my blog and guide to Epic play.

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Are there any alternate rules to make the ships more useful for their points or the game experience more streamlined? From my limited experience epic just seems like something people are going to try once or twice and just shelf the model. Even without considering you can just take 8 or 12 Ys and not bother with capital ships at all.

 

 

use an alternate point system for epic and things are fixed.

we simply use 200/300pts per side, plus 100 free for big ships only. 

--> big ships get used and nobody is at a disadvantage for it.

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Thanks.  This is very interesting.  I would've thought that the Raider with its regain shields ability and ability to attack twice would be the one who massacres, but apparently it's the other way around.

 

You can outmaneuver it in a Lambda.

True. Sad but true.

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Are there any alternate rules to make the ships more useful for their points or the game experience more streamlined? From my limited experience epic just seems like something people are going to try once or twice and just shelf the model. Even without considering you can just take 8 or 12 Ys and not bother with capital ships at all.

 

 

use an alternate point system for epic and things are fixed.

we simply use 200/300pts per side, plus 100 free for big ships only. 

--> big ships get used and nobody is at a disadvantage for it.

 

 

The way my friends and I have played, we usually either agree that both sides will have a Huge ship, or neither side will, but otherwise we use the Epic rules exactly as written.

 

Once the Gozanti comes out, I don't think even that stipulation will be required. Huge ships will be much more viable, even against lists that don't use them.

 

I also think there's a problem that most players don't know how to build and fly Huge ships well, which leads to a bad feedback loop where people avoid using Huge ships because they've been told they're bad or had a bad experience with one, so they never learn how to use them properly, so they never break the initial assumption.

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yupp, can see myself there;

 

you are so much more used to small/big ships - they fly themselves more naturally. the huge ships simply don't work that way, which let's you shy away, which in turn leads to not familiarising with them, and the circle is complete (only that nobody is the master ;) ).

though I don't see that as a problem. epic is a non-tournament format IMHO. the 2 epic tournaments we have run simply were too short (2/3 rounds, because of epic-format), it can't be done with many players under the current tournament rules IMHO (cause you can't sort through the ranks cleanly with that number of games). 

 

so flying the huge ships more with a difficulty keeps em special, somewhere. much more fun to pack em in scenarios anyway ;)

Edited by WokeUpDead

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 epic is a non-tournament format IMHO. the 2 epic tournaments we have run simply were too short (2/3 rounds, because of epic-format), it can't be done with many players under the current tournament rules IMHO (cause you can't sort through the ranks cleanly with that number of games). 

 

Epic definitely has issues as a Tournament format. I think it works better as a League format. In fact, there's someone organizing a Team Epic league up here in the Seattle area that sounds like it's going to be tons of fun.

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Part of the stigma is that for a long time, there were plenty of Rebel huge ships and no Imperial, so it felt lopsided.

 

This stigma was even worse once this helped to demonstrate that Huge ships weren't very good.

 

Trick is, their rules have since changed - and the Gozanti will change them even further.

 

The new modifications combined with the updated 'start at full power' rules will mean the Huge ships will finally be truly worth their points... it's just a question of whether people are willing to give the format another go. :)

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Part of the stigma is that for a long time, there were plenty of Rebel huge ships and no Imperial, so it felt lopsided.

 

This stigma was even worse once this helped to demonstrate that Huge ships weren't very good.

 

Trick is, their rules have since changed - and the Gozanti will change them even further.

 

The new modifications combined with the updated 'start at full power' rules will mean the Huge ships will finally be truly worth their points... it's just a question of whether people are willing to give the format another go. :)

Wait, you start with full energy on the craft, and all weapons?

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Part of the stigma is that for a long time, there were plenty of Rebel huge ships and no Imperial, so it felt lopsided.

 

This stigma was even worse once this helped to demonstrate that Huge ships weren't very good.

 

Trick is, their rules have since changed - and the Gozanti will change them even further.

 

The new modifications combined with the updated 'start at full power' rules will mean the Huge ships will finally be truly worth their points... it's just a question of whether people are willing to give the format another go. :)

Wait, you start with full energy on the craft, and all weapons?

 

 

I thought it was just the ship, too...

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IME, the thing about how easy it is to stay behind the Raider is misleading.
 
Consider these:
 
- Sure, it only moves 30 degrees on a bank, but it pivots from the front, meaning that the rear moves a LONG way and will end up  being able to shoot anything that was behind it when it started moving.
 
- It can move slower than any fighter with a 1 forward, meaning ships that try to stay behind it can be made to crash or overshoot.
 
- It moves last, so even aces will have moved before you do, allowing you to leverage the above two ideas against any fighter.
 

You can outmaneuver it in a Lambda.

True but that's because the stop manoeuvre on a Lambda is amazing when trailing huge ships. Of course, without a k-turn, it can take a while to get there...

 

vs

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