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So Luke will always be overcharged* as a Jedi because he did not know the Jedi existed before he met Ben, just doesn't feel right to me

 

* compared to some one who starts as a Jedi and does not have to pay the out of career penalty. 

Edited by tenchi2a

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Is there a way to switch careers during the game so as not to pay the increased cost

like Luke going for being a colonist to a jedi what ever ?

 

Was Luke a Colonist?  Seems to me, he was pretty young in Episode 4, young enough that he probably hadn't decided a Career yet.  When given the chance, he chose to become a Jedi career while traveling with Obi-Won.  Up until that point, he hadn't done anything noteworthy enough to have a career.

 

Career's influence your outlook on life in general.  If something really dramatic happened and completely changed a PCs outlook on the universe, I would rule that it "might" be possible for a Career to change.  It would be a one time change and would likely require a sizable XP investment to make the change.  However, that's how I'd handle it as a GM.  You'd have to discuss it with your GM to determine his opinion.

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So Luke will always be overcharged* as a Jedi because he did not know the Jedi existed before he met Ben, just doesn't feel right to me

 

* compared to some one who starts as a Jedi and does not have to pay the out of career penalty. 

 

And you're point?

 

Look if Luke wants to be a Jedi he can pay for the new specialization and pay the same cost as every other character who decides to branch out from their primary career. Though to your specific concern, if I were a GM I would just allow Luke's player to respect as a Jedi character once Force and Destiny came out. 

 

If the argument is that Luke shouldn't pay extra because Jedi classes weren't avaible when he created his character at first then the solution is for the GM to allow a respect once the Jedi careers become options in that GM's campaign.

 

If the argument is that Luke shouldn't pay extra because he decided that he now wants to play a Jedi, but made the active decision at char generation not to start in a Jedi career then .... he pays extra like anyone else. 

 

Also he pays an extra to buy a new specialization. Big deal. Like how many specializations is he trying to buy that he's always being overcharged? Unless he's purchasing a lot of new specializations all the time the overall cost to him isn't that great and it isn't anything to worry about. 

 

Though as others have argued, odds are strong that Luke started out as a Jedi since we basically meet him at level 1 and he was demonstrating Force powers as soon as he was on his first adventure. Sooooo I doubt Luke was a non Jedi in A New Hope. He was more than likely Starfighter Ace from the Warrior career. There's a world of difference between Luke the character not being aware he can use the Force until he meets Ben and the player who created Luke not knowing he was going to play a Jedi. Since Ep IV shows the start of Luke all his non Jedi stuff is easily explained as the Luke player playing along with his character discovering he's a Jedi after all as opposed to the character starting out knowing he's a Jedi like Obi Wan would in Ep I. 

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Luke's an NPC so he doesn't use the career rules, to be honest.

(You can say the same about Han and Leia, though it's more clear how to build a Han or Leia clone from the specialisations FFG have presented players.)

 

You're right, though.  If you're making a Luke-like PC there's no way of doing it efficiently.

Personally, I'd stick to Force and Destiny specs to get not-Luke's Force Rating up.  Starfighter Ace (Warrior) from the start, Ataru Striker (Seeker) in time for Return of the Jedi.  Enhance and Move are a must, other powers are debateable.

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For Luke-type PC, I'd peg him as starting in the Warrior career with the Starfighter Ace spec, likely picking up Force Emergent and then Shien Expert (based upon Legends material that he unconsciously mimicked Vader's style) and Shii-Cho Warrior as he goes.  In terms of Force powers, we see him use Enhance (Force Leaps), Move (though not very well at first), Influence (base power + "affect thoughts" Control Upgrade), and I'd include Sense for both the combat Control Upgrades (the offensive one being added in time for RotJ to give him a much better chance of landing a blow against Vader).

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As a GM I actually allow the combination: Warrior - Starfighter Ace in my upcoming Age of Rebellion campaign  (and maybe a few others, haven't decided yet) with the reasoning, that this pilots uses the force intuitively. I put a hammer down on Force Powers though. Only what I deem okay is allowed.

 

The Campaign will have room for the force, but it is not a "high-Force"" capaign (like in High-Magic Fantasy etc.)

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So Luke will always be overcharged* as a Jedi because he did not know the Jedi existed before he met Ben, just doesn't feel right to me

 

* compared to some one who starts as a Jedi and does not have to pay the out of career penalty. 

 

Why not?  He had no idea he would ever be one.  "All his life he looked away, to the future"...there's a (story-driven) cost for that.  Not sure what the big deal is anyway, there's plenty of utility in the specs of whatever career he starts with.  Not every new spec he picks has to have an FR...

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So Luke will always be overcharged* as a Jedi because he did not know the Jedi existed before he met Ben, just doesn't feel right to me

 

* compared to some one who starts as a Jedi and does not have to pay the out of career penalty. 

 

Why not?  He had no idea he would ever be one.  "All his life he looked away, to the future"...there's a (story-driven) cost for that.  Not sure what the big deal is anyway, there's plenty of utility in the specs of whatever career he starts with.  Not every new spec he picks has to have an FR...

 

 

For instance, I strongly believe he picks up the "Recruit" specialization towards the end of Episode 4.

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Luke's an NPC so he doesn't use the career rules, to be honest.

 

Just, this.

 

There's no need to slavishly impose the creation rules to NPCs and subsequently claim a story character was over-powered, or, inversely, claim/imply the creation rules are flawed because some story character would 'always be over-charged' for skills because it would be expensive, by your estimation, to create a what character should be, by your estimation, by explicitly using those rules.

 

What's important is the story.  This system explicitly states the story comes first and the rules should take a back seat to what's narratively important.

 

Additionally, if a character's concept changes so drastically that the rules simply can't accommodate the build, it's reasonable (though not required) for the GM to allow a respec.  IMO, it *could* have been reasonable for a GM to allow Luke to respec around the episode V to VI transition.

Edited by LethalDose

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First off, I agree about the whole 'He's an NPC' thing.

 

Having said that...

 

I know he talks about being a good pilot, but... given how restrictive Uncle Owen was, I'd be tempted to go Driver. I'd argue that Luke is more of an Explorer at heart than a Colonist...  

Yes, I know that Ace is a more efficient build, but so what? You start where you start.

 

Also, in looking at the movies as a guide for the games (like FFG did...), I'd start Luke with EotE Careers ONLY. Once he moves into the Second Movie, I'd allow AoR Careers, and once he gets to Yoda, FaD.

 

But what about Obi Wan? you ask...

 

Nope. Still EotE. Force Sensitive, and then maybe a few Skills - Lightsaber, Lore.

 

I don't think it's difficult to model Luke's progression through the films at all... You just have to be willing to throw BUCKETS of XP at what is basically a farm kid who likes to drive fast, who get's dumped into a very wild ride, and manages to do a lot more than hang on.

 

You know... like the hero of a pretty good story.

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And the whole argument about being overcharged is a meta gamy argument about a story. As others have noted you don't start Luke as a fringer. You start him as a starfighter ace.

Agreed. He spent all of his XP on starting characteristics and skills (Piloting) rather than on any Force abilities. Which worked out fine for the GM since he could introduce the whole Force thing to the rest of the group, via an NPC he could weave into the plot. The player and the GM secretly came up with an idea to develop Luke's abilities slowly as the campaign progressed.

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Forgive me as I am still learning the system, but it seems to me that Fantasy Flight took characters like Luke and Vader who changed many roles(careers) over the course of the movies into account by making players able to buy other specializations outside of their starting career. So Luke was probably a Fringer with a force rating 1 who later bought a specialization in piloting(either from Edge or more likely Age of Rebellion). He probably already had a couple of points invested in the piloting skill as well. 

 

Also, I only have the core rule book for Edge, so I don't know if there is anything in Age or F&D about switching careers, but I wouldn't think that be terribly difficult to do if a player started a character in Edge and wanted to carry said character into the other books. 

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You pick a career and it is always your career.  You can select specs from any book after the fact.  The issue of, if someone wants to see it that way, of scaling cost for new specs in and out of career is simply a mechanism to lengthen the shelf life of a campaign.  There is nothing preventing a table from implementing house rules to waive any, or all, of the increased xp costs in order to speed PC advancement if they so choose.

Edited by 2P51

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Forgive me as I am still learning the system, but it seems to me that Fantasy Flight took characters like Luke and Vader who changed many roles(careers) over the course of the movies into account by making players able to buy other specializations outside of their starting career. So Luke was probably a Fringer with a force rating 1 who later bought a specialization in piloting(either from Edge or more likely Age of Rebellion). He probably already had a couple of points invested in the piloting skill as well. 

 

Also, I only have the core rule book for Edge, so I don't know if there is anything in Age or F&D about switching careers, but I wouldn't think that be terribly difficult to do if a player started a character in Edge and wanted to carry said character into the other books. 

 

Forgive me as I am still learning the system, but it seems to me that Fantasy Flight took characters like Luke and Vader who changed many roles(careers) over the course of the movies into account by making players able to buy other specializations outside of their starting career. So Luke was probably a Fringer with a force rating 1 who later bought a specialization in piloting(either from Edge or more likely Age of Rebellion). He probably already had a couple of points invested in the piloting skill as well. 

 

Also, I only have the core rule book for Edge, so I don't know if there is anything in Age or F&D about switching careers, but I wouldn't think that be terribly difficult to do if a player started a character in Edge and wanted to carry said character into the other books. 

That is not how it works at all. You only get one career period. You can get additional specs later.

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I don't really think Luke is an NPC. I think Luke represents the Force and Destiny character type in the same way Han and Chewier represent the EotE and Leia AOR. These games seemed to be built on allowing players to be able to play these archetypes out of the box. 

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Forgive me as I am still learning the system, but it seems to me that Fantasy Flight took characters like Luke and Vader who changed many roles(careers) over the course of the movies into account by making players able to buy other specializations outside of their starting career. So Luke was probably a Fringer with a force rating 1 who later bought a specialization in piloting(either from Edge or more likely Age of Rebellion). He probably already had a couple of points invested in the piloting skill as well. 

 

Also, I only have the core rule book for Edge, so I don't know if there is anything in Age or F&D about switching careers, but I wouldn't think that be terribly difficult to do if a player started a character in Edge and wanted to carry said character into the other books. 

 

Forgive me as I am still learning the system, but it seems to me that Fantasy Flight took characters like Luke and Vader who changed many roles(careers) over the course of the movies into account by making players able to buy other specializations outside of their starting career. So Luke was probably a Fringer with a force rating 1 who later bought a specialization in piloting(either from Edge or more likely Age of Rebellion). He probably already had a couple of points invested in the piloting skill as well. 

 

Also, I only have the core rule book for Edge, so I don't know if there is anything in Age or F&D about switching careers, but I wouldn't think that be terribly difficult to do if a player started a character in Edge and wanted to carry said character into the other books. 

That is not how it works at all. You only get one career period. You can get additional specs later.

 

 

I'm assuming you are referring to my second paragraph, if anything is wrong in my first one, please let me know so I can be sure I am understanding things in Edge of the Empire properly.

 

As for the Age/F&D stuff, that is good to know. Like I said I only have the Edge core rule book, but as I mentioned before even if it doesn't, which it apparently doesn't,  it would not be terribly difficult to do that(allow a player to switch careers) if the GM approved(House rules). 

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If you want to start a "Luke" character with Force ability and a Force Point then the Warrior career Starfighter Ace spec would work. If you want a slower build, start in Explorer/Fringer with FSEx unispec, the latter for the Force Point, then head into F&D specs for lightsaber use or more FPs.

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When you're explaining this RPG and the character creation rules to new players, you want to associate certain careers, specializations, and rules and mechanics to characters that the new players would be familiar with. If they want to know how to build a Luke Skywalker character, you wouldn't say, "oh no, he's an NPC and you just pick and choose what NPCs have." I wouldn't do that, anyway.

 

Instead, I would explain that from what we see in the movies, Luke has the Ace career with the Driver or Pilot Specialization. Possibly both. Then fairly quickly on, he picks up the Force Sensitive Emergent specialization. Later, he might get into the Starfighter Ace specialization. Along the way, he's picking up some Force powers. Lastly, he grabs up Shii-Cho Knight. Then I'd explain Luke's Obligation. He has the Responsibility Obligation. He's been told his father was a great pilot, and Luke strives to be the man his long-deceased father was.

 

Applying character creation concepts to NPCs can help me explain the rules to new players and help the new players figure out what they're creating. It also helps me decide what talents to pick and choose when I am creating an NPC. I think about what career and specs the NPC might have if they were a PC, then look at those specs and pick some of the key talents and rank up some of the skills.

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When you're explaining this RPG and the character creation rules to new players, you want to associate certain careers, specializations, and rules and mechanics to characters that the new players would be familiar with. If they want to know how to build a Luke Skywalker character, you wouldn't say, "oh no, he's an NPC and you just pick and choose what NPCs have." I wouldn't do that, anyway.

 

Instead, I would explain that from what we see in the movies, Luke has the Ace career with the Driver or Pilot Specialization. Possibly both. Then fairly quickly on, he picks up the Force Sensitive Emergent specialization. Later, he might get into the Starfighter Ace specialization. Along the way, he's picking up some Force powers. Lastly, he grabs up Shii-Cho Knight. Then I'd explain Luke's Obligation. He has the Responsibility Obligation. He's been told his father was a great pilot, and Luke strives to be the man his long-deceased father was.

 

Applying character creation concepts to NPCs can help me explain the rules to new players and help the new players figure out what they're creating. It also helps me decide what talents to pick and choose when I am creating an NPC. I think about what career and specs the NPC might have if they were a PC, then look at those specs and pick some of the key talents and rank up some of the skills.

 

These are valid points about explaining initial character creation to novice players.  And they'd be relevant if this thread were about initial character creation.

 

But it's not.

 

Based on the OP:

 

Is there a way to switch careers during the game so as not to pay the increased cost

like Luke going for being a colonist to a jedi what ever ?

 

and the responses, the thread is about changing careers in the case of a canonical character (I'm not going to debate if Luke's a PC or an NPC) and whether it's something worth worrying about.  IMO it's really not a big deal at all at 10 xp per out-of-career specs, but you'll eternally have a sub-population of players who will complain about any penalty or impediment to creating their perfect character.  Face it, the penalties to buy TWO out-of-career specs is still less than the cost of a single top-tier (bottom-tier?) talent, and the additional versatility you're paying for there is likely to have value far beyond the talent for many (certainly not all) builds.

 

To be clear, I think what you've presented is one very valid way to build Luke, it just completely ignores the issue being discussed.  But even if Luke *should* be able to be built using the current creation rules (and I'm not conceding that he is), he'd be a very bad example for a novice player due to the complexity of representing the disparate aspects of his character (Farmboy, pilot, & Jedi).  There are some good suggestions here to deal with that, e.g. more or less ignoring the 'farmboy' aspect and simply creating a Warrior-Jedi Ace character.  Though, frankly, I would suggest a novice player either stick to a simpler concept or learn the system well enough to craft that character they want.

 

Really the only thing a novice player needs to know about careers is summed up succinctly in the first response to this thread:

 

You only get one career. Choose wisely.

 
Edited by LethalDose

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I used Luke as a Well know character example nothing more  :unsure: sorry if this started a debate on if hes a PC or NPC that was not my point.

let me put it a different way I'm at a later age in my life (Not a kid) and I am back in school to change my profession. was in customer service/ sales and I now working on my Computer science degree.

There just seems to me to be a missing mechanic for late or early changing of profession. Not say it should be free maybe 50xp or more but that there should be one.

and i would put a restriction on it that you can have a Signature Ability in the Career you are leaving.

Edited by tenchi2a

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