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flipperoverlord

Attack Shuttle Undercosted?

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As noted, the dial can be mitigated with Hera as crew, but that costs you points and means you're not getting your shenanigans.

 

Ezra/Hera/Predator is nice, but is essentially a Z-95 with unlimited focus tokens - not bad, but also probably not worth more than the  24 points it costs.

 

Bear in mind that a T-65 with an R2 and Integrated Astromech loses hard 1 turns, but packs an extra hull, and an extra shield, and has an extra one-off damage ignoring ability, for nearly double the total durability. You'll need those focus effects to win in a joust, and without barrel roll you're probably not agile enough to avoid one.

 

Sabine is impressive. A pilot ability which adds boost is always going to be impressive, let alone one which is essentially adding advanced sensors at the same time!

 

 

The turret slot is an interesting one. In some ways, it's a trap option - you have a 3-dice primary attack, and are actually paying for it given the price of the ship - so do you really want to buy a turret and not fire it? Other turret carriers have much weaker primary attacks (HWK, Y-wing), and/or the ability to fire their turret as well as their primary (Ghost, Y-wing). Do you really want to pay through the nose for a TLT and then not fire the main gun? The (cheap) dorsal turret or an autoblaster turret may be tempting for precisely this reason - especially on Sabine, who can make that shuttle dance.

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How is running something decent that can't be run in the first place proof of being undercosted?

The only point of comparison to zeb is the alpha (ala tie v z-95; only with 1 more red die) and the Alpha SUCKS ito efficiency

 

Sure it's illegal to run 5 of Zeb, but my post is meant to illustrate what exactly you get for the point cost. For 20 points, you get a lot on that Zeb. It can't comprise your entire list, but it is assuredly a little under costed at 20.

 

 

Compare Ezra at 20 points to a Scum K-Fighter, if you prefer. What do you gain? PS4 upgrade from PS2, trade Target Lock for Evade and Barrel Roll (which are both better), gain a sweet pilot ability, EPT slot, crew slot, turret slot. What does it cost you? One 1 hull point (but also you have more shields). Ezra at 20pts is WAY better than a K-Fighter. Ezra with PTL is WAY better at 23 points than a PS5 K-Fighter with an EPT you haven't ever paid for yet. So...yeah, I think it's a tad under costed. That's just me though.

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the dial has 

every. single. manouver. 

on it.

 

sorry, but it is -very- good. not over-the-top-broken-good, but very good. 

 

the thing itself is comparable to an xwing/tie-adv -1hp, but with a turret-option on top, and WAY more manouvers.

 

 

I'm not saying it is broken, but the shuttle seems to offer a very good deal.

the one thing keeping it in check is that you'd have to buy multiple ghosts, and none of its 'in game' costs.

 

that, and the flying-legobrick-design ;)

Edited by WokeUpDead

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It's a bit undercosted.

 

Zeb is clearly too good for the cost, even if his ability is the weakest. Don't think so? Tell me, would you run 5x Attack Shuttle with Tactician, if you could?

 

That's right; I would too.

 

You cannot ignore that all the Attack Shuttles are unique. That clearly plays a factor in it's cost. It doesn't matter how powerful 5 Attack Shuttles with Tactician would be, because you CAN'T run that. 

 

As for Ezra, PTL is limited by his dial. I just cannot for the life of me understand the hatred for the Defender's dial, yet people are completely glossing over the Attack Shuttles. Changing 2 eyeballs into evades while stressed will rarely be the equal to just a plain focus. And without Target Lock, PTL cannot really be used offensively. And using Hera sort of precludes using PTL. 

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Just repeating what's already been said. It has 2 hull and 2 shields with 2 agility. That's identical to the Z-95 and that ship just died before you finished reading this sentence. The shuttle has an extra attack die though so you bump up the cost. Yes you can add crew and you have great synergies with EPT's and pilot abilities but you pay for those upgrades too and in the end it's still just 4 total hit points with 2 agility. Absolutely positively not under costed.

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It's a bit undercosted.

 

Zeb is clearly too good for the cost, even if his ability is the weakest. Don't think so? Tell me, would you run 5x Attack Shuttle with Tactician, if you could?

 

That's right; I would too.

 

You cannot ignore that all the Attack Shuttles are unique. That clearly plays a factor in it's cost. It doesn't matter how powerful 5 Attack Shuttles with Tactician would be, because you CAN'T run that. 

 

 

Ships are allowed to cost less if they're unique? I strongly disagree with this argument. Each ship should be costed on the merits of what it does and what it has, for the points.

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You are bringing in a hypothetical that will not exist. It really doesn't matter that a theoretical generic would cost 17pts. It doesn't exist. You cannot run 5 Attack Shuttles. You can only run 4, and the price continues to increase with each one you add. 

 

But it doesn't change the fact that the value you're getting for the points you're spending is a little on the high side. This fact is easier illustrated (not to everyone, I guess), if you extrapolate the power of a single shuttle (for example purposes only) by multiplying it in your squad list.

 

The fact that these shuttles can die because they're only 4 HP and 2 green dice, doesn't really change the fact that they're also pretty solid on the offense. Your list is easily popping one of these shuttles per turn? Okay. Guess what? It wasn't that many points. What about the other 80 points in return fire? If they were 4 more shuttles with 3 attack dice each, you'd be in trouble. Especially if they all had Tactician, like a 20pt Zeb. That's how I know that Zeb's baseline is very, very good for 18 points.

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In theory, an Attack Shuttle generic would be really strong, yes. Though, at 18 pts, there would be valid comparisons to an Interceptor, similar to the TIE vs Z-95 comparison. The issue is, that is just a theory. You cannot run 5 Attack Shuttles. Hell, you can't even run 4 with Tactician for 20 pts. 

 

What we have is a ship that a generic would likely be stronger than a unique. But, since we have no generics, it is down to just looking at the uniques.

 

5 Attack Shuttles with Tactician cannot happen. So why bring it up when we are talking about how good the ship actually is. 

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5 Attack Shuttles with Tactician cannot happen. So why bring it up when we are talking about how good the ship actually is. 

 

But it doesn't change the fact that the value you're getting for the points you're spending is a little on the high side. This fact is easier illustrated (not to everyone, I guess), if you extrapolate the power of a single shuttle (for example purposes only) by multiplying it in your squad list.

Edited by CBMarkham

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Though, at 18 pts, there would be valid comparisons to an Interceptor, similar to the TIE vs Z-95 comparison. 

 

I agree. It would be valid to consider a 3 attack point ship with 3 greens (at 18pts) to a 3 attack point ship with 2 greens, but a different hull/shield distribution, and one more HP. This is exactly like Z-95 vs Tie Fighter. Agree with you here.

 

The Interceptor gains boost (over a Tie Fighter), but our Z-95 equivalent (the shuttle) loses target lock and gains evade and barrel roll (a good trade). I think that this is a fair upgrade to both actions bars, and that it is roughly equivalent.

 

So, now we have an 18pt PS1 Interceptor vs an 18pt, PS1 Shuttle, right? No. You've got Zeb, who has additional options in the form of turret and crew slots (options not available to our Tie friend), but let's not get into that either. Let's just talk about 18pts.

 

Zeb is PS3 with an ability that makes him less susceptible to critical hits. In a 1v1 fight vs Zeb and a Tie Interceptor, Zeb fires first and moves second. That's the slightly under costed bit I'm talking about.

 

Thank you for bringing up this extremely valid comparison. I agree with you wholeheartedly here.

Edited by CBMarkham

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But it doesn't change the fact that the value you're getting for the points you're spending is a little on the high side.

Yes it actually does. Because the point value in in fact going to be impacted by how many you can run in a given list.

That is for example why FFG said that the cheapest ship in the game will be the Tie Fighter and Z-96, and no ship will ever be less than 12 points.

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But it doesn't change the fact that the value you're getting for the points you're spending is a little on the high side.

Yes it actually does. Because the point value in in fact going to be impacted by how many you can run in a given list.

That is for example why FFG said that the cheapest ship in the game will be the Tie Fighter and Z-96, and no ship will ever be less than 12 points.

 

This is a real fallacy in logic, as far as I'm concerned. The extrapolation only helps to illustrate just how out of control this minor under costing gets with scaling. The fact that you can't scale it (due to pilot uniqueness) just means your list will remain under costed by 1 to 2pts (for the single shuttle) rather than by 5 to 10pts, if you were allowed to take advantage of this under costed ship more than you are. It does not change the fact that the one shuttle is still an excellent bargain.

 

 

Uniqueness should not have any impact on power. That's silly. Just my two cents.

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Though, at 18 pts, there would be valid comparisons to an Interceptor, similar to the TIE vs Z-95 comparison.

 

I agree. It would be valid to consider a 3 attack point ship with 3 greens (at 18pts) to a 3 attack point ship with 2 greens, but a different hull/shield distribution, and one more HP. This is exactly like Z-95 vs Tie Fighter. Agree with you here.

 

The Interceptor gains boost (over a Tie Fighter), but our Z-95 equivalent (the shuttle) loses target lock and gains evade and barrel roll (a good trade). I think that this is a fair upgrade to both actions bars, and that it is roughly equivalent.

 

So, now we have an 18pt PS1 Interceptor vs an 18pt, PS1 Shuttle, right? No. You've got Zeb, who has additional options in the form of turret and crew slots (options not available to our Tie friend), but let's not get into that either. Let's just talk about 18pts.

 

Zeb is PS3 with an ability that makes him less susceptible to critical hits. In a 1v1 fight vs Zeb and a Tie Interceptor, Zeb fires first and moves second. That's the slightly under costed bit I'm talking about.

 

Thank you for bringing up this extremely valid comparison. I agree with you wholeheartedly here.

PST!

Alpha squadron is overcosted by quite a bit

Shuttle being more efficient only shows it isn't (as) overcosted; not that it's undercoated

Comparison is valid; conclusion is off

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