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jblum23

Points Hike

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Just curious as to what you guys (seriously) think about a points increase, and when do you see it happening. For instance 10 points. Off the top of my head that would allow 5 blue squad b-wings or 9 academy pilots. Could this be the generic pilot fix?

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I don't think it will ever happen. The game was designed around 100 points and a lot of stuff is blanced around that point value.

There's no reason why you can't play 110 or 150, or 750 point games if you want. But I'll be surprised to see the tournament value ever change.

Edited by VanorDM

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Not really. Everything so far has been designed and balanced within the 100 point framework. Just look at how awkward somethings get in epic at times

Edit: ninja

Sub idea. Missions and mission support could see this

Edited by Shenannigan

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I don't really see it happening ever. It seems like a poor design choice to balance the game around 100 points for this long then change that to an extra 10 points.

Also changing points probably helps ace lists the most since you can then sneak in a few more upgrades or another ship where you couldn't normally. Palp+aces would certainly like the room to fit a fatter new defender in I imagine.

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Problem is, as we've seen in epic, is that increasing the points doesn't make generic ships more attractive; it allows folks to put more good ships in their list.

At 110, I'm flying a triple Imperial Aces list, with Fel, Vader, and Whisper all killing you at PS 9.

 

This. It mystifies me when people say things like torpedoes and X-wings are magically great in Epic; it's not like the math magically changed just because the point limit increased, just fly more of the ships that are already good.

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Problem is, as we've seen in epic, is that increasing the points doesn't make generic ships more attractive; it allows folks to put more good ships in their list.

At 110, I'm flying a triple Imperial Aces list, with Fel, Vader, and Whisper all killing you at PS 9.

 

This. It mystifies me when people say things like torpedoes and X-wings are magically great in Epic; it's not like the math magically changed just because the point limit increased, just fly more of the ships that are already good.

 

 

Right. the 100 point ultra-competitive lists are the ones that are super efficient and consistent at 100 points. Increase the points and its just a matter of time until min-max becomes larger scale and more extreme.

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When it comes to point adding a few points just throws things off until the new normal becomes established at which point you'll think there need to be more and more points to keep flying what you have been and changing it to what you want to fly.

 

Making bigger changes may allow larger games but as people point out with Epic it is usually just more of the same.

 

Back in the beginning there were those complaints about 100 points being "too restrictive" and how much more you could do with 105 points.  The thing is that is true as you now give those let those 8 ships swarms center around Howlrunner and also enable 5 X-Wings or putting more goodies onto just 4 of the rebel ships.  Figuring out how to cut that point or two that gets you under the 100 point limit is what can make you a great squad builder and using that a great pilot.

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The tournements around here we change the point totals from time to time just for variety. At 100 points, you get two good ships outfitted almost any way you please, or three good ships with some jewelry missing, or 4 so-so ships, or 5+ crap. I think it is balanced at 100 points. Things get silly above 120.

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At home up the points to 150 if you like but it's a bad idea for competitive play its balanced around 100 points.

My friend went mad when we started buying everything after the first night we played so we started at 150 it just ended up with a table full of rebel aces verses swarms of Imp ships, we reduced to 100 and had alot more fun since.

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This. It mystifies me when people say things like torpedoes and X-wings are magically great in Epic; it's not like the math magically changed just because the point limit increased, just fly more of the ships that are already good.

I will absolutely say that a Y-Wing firing a Torpedo at a Huge ship is a much better notion than a Y-Wing firing a Torpedo at a Squint.

Which isn't really a refutation of your point so much as it is the exception that proves the rule.

A ship that's 85% as points-efficient as a TIE Fighter (the non-IA X-Wing) is not suddenly 15% better when there's more of them. It's only by changing the nature of the battlefield (by bringing along a Huge ship) that new tools can come into play.

And frankly? Even with a Huge ship on the table, I'd rather give my Y-Wing TLT a Torpedo.

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When it comes to point adding a few points just throws things off until the new normal becomes established at which point you'll think there need to be more and more points to keep flying what you have been and changing it to what you want to fly.

Making bigger changes may allow larger games but as people point out with Epic it is usually just more of the same.

Back in the beginning there were those complaints about 100 points being "too restrictive" and how much more you could do with 105 points. The thing is that is true as you now give those let those 8 ships swarms center around Howlrunner and also enable 5 X-Wings or putting more goodies onto just 4 of the rebel ships. Figuring out how to cut that point or two that gets you under the 100 point limit is what can make you a great squad builder and using that a great pilot.

TBF, in Wave 1 the TIE was so much better than the X-Wing that increasing the point limit really did make things more even- the TIE swarm would become less efficient by adding new stuff (because there wasn't better stuff to include yet) while the X-Wing squad could finally afford some better toys.

This changed by Wave 2 (Hello Falcon!) and was definitely gone by Wave 4.

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Problem is, as we've seen in epic, is that increasing the points doesn't make generic ships more attractive; it allows folks to put more good ships in their list.

At 110, I'm flying a triple Imperial Aces list, with Fel, Vader, and Whisper all killing you at PS 9.

 

This. It mystifies me when people say things like torpedoes and X-wings are magically great in Epic; it's not like the math magically changed just because the point limit increased, just fly more of the ships that are already good.

 

I can't speak much for torpedoes (beyond capital-ship crits being extra scary, and only a limited number of ships able to deal these compared to the sheer number of ships that can pack Proton Torpedoes, I guess), but X-wings really do become better in Epic - the inefficiency doesn't hurt as much when the prices are tripled, the massed fire available means the finer points on durability breakpoints come up less (Read: B-wings will evaporate anyway too), the bigger map makes the open Speed 3s more valuable than they are in standard for getting around the map, and 2 AGI becomes 4 AGI against Single Turbolasers, which until recently were pretty popular.

 

Also unlike the B-wing, a 4K actually occasionally has a chance of clearing a parking lot, which can be significant. ;)

 

It boils down to they're still not perfect, but they're not rubbish, and Epic helps emphasise a few of their selling points. YMMV, of course, but there you go. With Integrated Astromech... yeah, they'll be just fine.

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Problem is, as we've seen in epic, is that increasing the points doesn't make generic ships more attractive; it allows folks to put more good ships in their list.

At 110, I'm flying a triple Imperial Aces list, with Fel, Vader, and Whisper all killing you at PS 9.

 

I agree with your 110 point example, that sounds like an incredibly strong list.

 

However, I'm not sure I agree with the "increasing the points doesn't make generic ships more attractive" statement.  From playing Epic format, we can see that generic ships are indeed more attractive.  Ace type ships that either rely on arc dodging, mass tokens tend to fail when they are facing a higher quantity of enemy ships.  

 

Whether this is due to a higher likely hood of being blocked or just by brute force from generics Ace style ships aren't as good nor is regeneration as strong when the chance of being bursted down by many enemy ships more probable.

 

A larger number of generic ships also increases the importance of support/aura type ships providing further options beyond just adding another ace type fighter.  

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Just curious as to what you guys (seriously) think about a points increase, and when do you see it happening. For instance 10 points. Off the top of my head that would allow 5 blue squad b-wings or 9 academy pilots. Could this be the generic pilot fix?

120 point games see a shift from ace-spam to generic-spam.

because all of the sudden you CAN'T ARCDODGE THEM ALL and your token stack of 3 stops sounding that epic.

 

at 150 points at normal table size aces become nigh useless unless they are power-multipliers like Howlie, Serissu or Abaht

 

200 is impossible to fly at small table alredy, we're treading the EPIC PATH

Edited by Warpman

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