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Desslok

The Spoilerrific Super Duper Episode Seven Megathread!

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I absolutely loved Rey for the first half, when she was a plucky, resourceful scavenger.  And then she went all 'Force Unleashed' on us. I guess you can't be important in SW unless you're a super special snowflake.

It was quite amusing how she walked out of prison, though. (I wonder who her mother was. Her father was probably Luke, but who was her mother?)

 

I thought Finn was the most interesting character. He's definitely not anyone special, but he's there, compelled to step up and do the right thing. When he picked up that lightsabre against Ren at the end, he knew it was going to end very badly for him. But he did it anyway.

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Disclaimer: I've only seen it once.

 

I liked it.

 

It is well directed. It is well acted.

 

I find the story slightly patchy. It is missing something "Star Warsy." This brings up what "Star Wars" means (which is different to different people.) And to me this film was lacking something "Star Wars." I guess it was missing George Lucas - although don't get me wrong, I'm glad he didn't direct it, but it is clear it is not his universe or story anymore, something defining of the galaxy is now gone. Some magic is lost, replaced with grimy costumes, good acting, good directing, good lines and less mystery and magic.

 

The film was too fast. Too cram packed with references, action and goings on, but lacking in motivations, reasons, logic, dialogue and reflection... these seemed to be less important than shooting, flying, bombing, running... don't get me wrong, it's not like the PT or OT aren't full of small issues like these, but it these at least tried to cover up the most glaring and obvious ones... Guardian sort of sums it all up pretty nicely I think. I think the film seems rushed, not half-hearted, but definitely not as toned, defined and neat as it could've been.

 

Also, it was basing itself on Star Wars, whereas Star Wars was based on/inspired by older films, tv-shows, genres and archetypes, this is missing from TFA. For all his (and the PT's) flaws, Lucas tried to make his films in his vision, telling a story in a certain way, not being self-referential to the extent that TFA is a big reference fest to the OT. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it seems a bit cheap and hastily done in this case (as has been pointed out above, there is constant mirroring going on in the Saga, but I don't think this is mirroring). Of course, that is not to say the film is bad, not by a long shot - it is obviously a better film than any of the films in the PT - but it felt less Star Wars to me.

 

My main gripe, the thing the threw me out of the ongoing immersion was the Starkiller firing at the Hosnian system destroying those planets (and moons?). This beam could apparently be seen anywhere in the galaxy, as with the destruction of those planets, we could see those explosions on a entirely different planet ... was all this happening in the same solar system? same neighbourhood? From what I understand these three places, Hosnian system, Starkiller base and Maz' base were all in quite different locations, not that close to each other ... the galaxy suddenly seems very small, almost impossibly so... hyperspacing anywhere happens in seconds... this will of course be explained, somewhere, somehow at some point, but it broke with my impressions of the earlier films, both PT and OT. I know distance and travel time is speed of plot, but in this case it felt ... well, a bit silly. After the Starkiller incident, it was really hard and difficult to get into it again.

 

EDIT: Oh and I was only moved by the musical themes referencing the older films... beyond that the music wasn't disruptive, but it seemed bland and boring. Looking forward to the soundtrack so I can get it on my mp3-player.

 

EDIT 2: I also maintain the right to change my opinion at any point in the future.

Edited by Jegergryte

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Concerning the laser attack, weren't the only reactions we saw from within the same system? The effected planet and (apparently) the planet where Maz's castle was?

 

About your other comments about the movie "lacking" something, that is of course for you to feel but I am in 100% disagreement and thought that Star Wars feel made a welcome return which I found sorely lacking in the PT... But there is no accounting for personal preference and taste of course.

 

I was personally very happy that we weren't constantely given explanations and motivations for onscreen actions. I enjoy not being spoonfed such things, I (again, I know) thought this was extremely remeniscant of the OT.

Edited by DanteRotterdam

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It is aesthetically reminiscent to the OT, but to me that is merely superficial. Having an X-wing doesn't make it good Star Wars, having the Falcon there doesn't make it good Star Wars. Having people in masks, costumes and grime everywhere doesn't make it good Star Wars... yeah, it plays on nostalgia, but that doesn't make it good Star Wars. It's missing the Star Wars feel, the slow moments of contemplation and reflection that should be there in addition to the action (and you know, committee meetings ;) )... even the Rey-touching-lightsaber-thing was hasty, fast paced, sloppily rammed in there for good measure ... it wasn't given time, before yet another crisis and craziness. I did really like Kylo Ren though, his lightsaber tantrum was great! His moments with Han was ... great! That short scene and dialogue was worth the ticket alone (I'm not talking about the whole setting up bombs and stuff, just the short sequence on the bridge).

 

The fact that it is better than the PT doesn't really say much though. It would be hard to be as bad.

 

Well, we don't know about Maz's place, Hosnian system and Starkiller base, or do we? Unless I missed something (obviously a possibility) this was never shown, said or made clear (one reason to see it again.) If it is all in the same system, that is a mighty big coincident, which doesn't speak in favour either.

 

Also, I'm not calling for constant explanations, but some contextualisation and a level of explanation would be welcome for some of the glaring weak points. It is close to a chaotic mess - but not entirely there. Just. I mean, it's chaotic, but not a mess. You know, shades of grey and other colours, you know... not black/white silliness? ;):ph34r:

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I kind of dislike the final remark to be honest as it sort of seems I am trying to make it a black/white discussion while (eventhough I am highly positive of the movie) I had my gripes with certain things too.

 

But having said that I do feel we are on the opposite sides of the "feels like Star Wars spectrum" because to me it did feel an awful lot like Star Wars and I did see those quiet moments of contemplation and refelction. A few spring to mind; "Rey sitting at the foot of the downed ATAT looking at the ship taking off, BB8 stopping in his flight from the massacre in the village trying to make sense of what is going on, Finn walking into the landing craft removing his helmet and catching his breath trying to make sense of what just happened, Rey panicked in the Woods, Han brushing off Finn knowing full well that Leia is going to be on board the landing craft and those are just a few of the moments that I recall right of the top of my head. Yes, the movie is fast so the moments are easily looked over in the rest of the unslaught but they are there and they added (at least to me) to the atmosphere in a huge way.

 

Concerning the Starkiller attack, I don't think the base itself was in the same system at all during its attack (or perhaps it moved there, does it move?)

Sure I have many questions as well. For instance if a sun is depleated then what happens? Does it grow back, does starkiler base move? Etc. Etc.

Edited by DanteRotterdam

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I saw it last night, and thoroughly enjoyed it, though it did have it's downsides.

 

I loved...

... Kylo taking off his helmet.  I really thought he was just going to be more Vader like.  

... the nods to ANH.  Be it the garbage chute reference or the stormtroopers comlink transmission about them splitting up and being on levels 5 and 6.

... Rey's lightsaber stand off with Ren.  You can almost see her tapping into the light side of the force when she closes her eyes.  Like she is making herself calm and at peace.  Just before kicking Ren's backside.

... much, much more.

 

I did not like the superweapon.  In fact I don't even understand it.  A hyperspace-capable superlaser.  Uh, ok.  One that eats it's own star to power it.  Gotcha.  Soooo, how do you fire it more than once?  Did I miss that?

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They didn't name it Starkiller base purely for nostalgia. It is named Starkiller base because that's what it freakin does, it kills stars, quite possibly the most destructive super weapon designed to date. I mean what do you think happens to a system whose star is gobbled up? Bad things I'm sure.

Edited by BigSpoon

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They didn't name it Starkiller base purely for nostalgia. It is named Starkiller base because that's what it freakin does, it kills stars, quite possibly the most destructive super weapon designed to date. I mean what do you think happens to a system whose star is gobbled up? Bad things I'm sure.

Exactly.  They fired it once, so they ate their own star.  Where did the star come from that they were using to fuel the second shot?  Was it a binary system?

 

And once the star was dead it's not like the planet could move or anything.

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1) But having said that I do feel we are on the opposite sides of the "feels like Star Wars spectrum" because to me it did feel an awful lot like Star Wars and I did see those quiet moments of contemplation and refelction. A few spring to mind; "Rey sitting at the foot of the downed ATAT looking at the ship taking off, BB8 stopping in his flight from the massacre in the village trying to make sense of what is going on, Finn walking into the landing craft removing his helmet and catching his breath trying to make sense of what just happened, Rey panicked in the Woods, Han brushing off Finn knowing full well that Leia is going to be on board the landing craft and those are just a few of the moments that I recall right of the top of my head. Yes, the movie is fast so the moments are easily looked over in the rest of the unslaught but they are there and they added (at least to me) to the atmosphere in a huge way.

 

2) Concerning the Starkiller attack, I don't think the base itself was in the same system at all during its attack (or perhaps it moved there, does it move?)

 

3) Sure I have many questions as well. For instance if a sun is depleated then what happens? Does it grow back, does starkiler base move? Etc. Etc.

1) My point, I guess is that those moments don't have enough .... Ooommph to them. They are crammed in between the need for speed, action, booom and baaang... at times it comes across as merely fan service...

 

2) You're right, the Starkiller base is somewhere else and I think this is mentioned in passing, that it can fire through hyperspace or something, during the chaotic and (in my opinion) messy and poorly constructed planning session at the Resistance base, but is Maz Kanata's base in the Hosnian system?

3) From what I remember when Starkiller is blown up, it turns into a sun... at least it seemed like it from where I sat :P I like how the Starkiller's energy source seems to be taken from the Starforge. :ph34r: If it eats a star per shot, then it should be able to move, otherwise it's the most expensive one-shot weapon ever built... and we know it shoots twice once and is charged for a second shot... so unless they can make suns as ammo ... :ph34r:

Edited by Jegergryte

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1) My point, I guess is that those moments don't have enough .... Ooommph to them. They are crammed in between the need for speed, action, booom and baaang... at times it comes across as merely fan service...

 

2) You're right, the Starkiller base is somewhere else and I think this is mentioned in passing, that it can fire through hyperspace or something, during the chaotic and (in my opinion) messy and poorly constructed planning session at the Resistance base, but is Maz Kanata's base in the Hosnian system?

3) From what I remember when Starkiller is blown up, it turns into a sun... at least it seemed like it from where I sat :P I like how the Starkiller's energy source seems to be taken from the Starforge. :ph34r: If it eats a star per shot, then it should be able to move, otherwise it's the most expensive one-shot weapon ever built... and we know it shoots twice... so unless they can make suns as ammo ... :ph34r:

 

 

1.) Yeah, I don't think we will agree on this and we (of course) don't need to. But first you claim they are missing, then that they don't get enough time and then they don't have enough Ooomph... Well, I guess it is merely a matter of taste since i fell that they are there, they do get time and they do pack a punch... then again I've seen the movie 3 times so subtlety does come into focus more on repeat viewings.

2.) I guess her base is in that system. It is the only explanation for them seeing it.

3.) I am really curious to learn moreabout this...

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Just checked the updated map of the Star Wars galaxy... Maz's base is on Takodana... far away from the Hosnian system. It also makes little sense to see the beam from the weapon go by... unless Starkiller base is in the same system as Tokadana... still even then, seeing the planets explode? Meh...

 

After I've seen the film a few more times, I may agree with you on some of your points, but at the moment I don't. After the first viewing it was nigh on a chaotic mess... but of course it wasn't, but almost felt like it ... which could be related to long day in the office and late night showing, and stress related to the lady's flight being delayed, which in turn could've meant she wouldn't be back in time ... and so on...

Edited by Jegergryte

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I could be wrong but the impression I got was that the superweapon drew on the power of the planet's local sun until it was depleted. Not that it did it all with one shot. And the weapon was designed to destroy star systems so while yes seeing individual planets destroyed may not have been accurate (scientific accuracy in a space fantasy? pshaw!) I think it was meant to convey that the system was destroyed.

 

Personally I think the weapon should have done what its name implied and destroyed suns which would have also been a one-up on the earlier Deathstars. Taking out a system's sun would all but destroy it either initially or in the long run. But that may have been too close to the Suncrusher maybe? Never read the books so I can't say.

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I could be wrong but the impression I got was that the superweapon drew on the power of the planet's local sun until it was depleted. Not that it did it all with one shot. And the weapon was designed to destroy star systems so while yes seeing individual planets destroyed may not have been accurate (scientific accuracy in a space fantasy? pshaw!) I think it was meant to convey that the system was destroyed.

 

Personally I think the weapon should have done what its name implied and destroyed suns which would have also been a one-up on the earlier Deathstars. Taking out a system's sun would all but destroy it either initially or in the long run. But that may have been too close to the Suncrusher maybe? Never read the books so I can't say.

Not only isn't it accurate, it doesn't - as far as I know - correspond with the established premisses of the Star Wars-galaxy. It broke my immersion and that sucks, up until that point I was just soaking in it, sponging it up... and such a silly thing broke down everything. It didn't ruin it, but it broke down the scaffolding, or wall if you will... Hosnian and Takodana are almost on opposite sides of the galaxy... so unless Starkiller moved - which I think is possible - then it meeeeh...

 

That probably would've been too much like the Suncrusher yeah, but I agree, a better idea than a beam splitting and taking out moons and planets like it did.

Edited by Jegergryte

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Just this second got back from the cinema and... In my humble opinion it's awesome! They nailed the feel for me & the new characters slot in nicely! Star Wars how it should be done!!! Right... to the pub to disect it properly!!

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Okay, now that I've had some sleep, lets see if I can be more coherent:

 

* The writing was razor sharp. The interplay between the characters was great stuff and the humor was appreciated and perfectly fitting with the characters. And more importantly, the new characters have chemistry! Finn and Rey work well together.

 

* The action was great. The escape in the Falcon off Jaku was a hell of a good ride and the fight over the lake and at the Superweapon was gripping.

 

* I wasn't shocked by killing Han. Aside from Ford wanting out of the character for years and years now, it was pretty heavily handed in the foreshadowing. "Go confront your son and turn him" wont work on a first act bad-guy.

 

* While I thought it was a pretty cool sequence, man I wish that we could get away from the Planet Sized Things That Kill Other Planets macguffin. Three Death Stars is enough, please.

 

*The jury is still out on the soundtrack - an essential part of ANY Star Wars movie. I thought the callbacks to the old themes was strong and used appropriately, but there wasn't a new contender for best track, no Imperial March or Duel of the Fates. I'll have to pick up the CD today, give it a couple of plays and see if my opinion changes any.

 

* While it wasn't as bad as I feared, the movie did feel a bit like a Star Wars Greatest Hits. Short, ancient dispenser of wisdom. Countdown to beat a Planet Killer. Trench run. Alien Cantina with weird vaguely ethnic music. There was a certain sameness to this new one, where the rest of the series managed to weave the themes of Star Wars into it's tapestry while bring mostly new. Mostly.

 

* It didn't quite have the emotional punch of the other movies like the end of E3 or the end of E6. Now granted, this is just the first of three and I'm not attached to any of the characters at all, so there is no way that this movie can meet this condition. Only time can do that for me.

 

Like I said before, I didnt see the movie in the greatest state of mind to be critical. I did enjoy myself, but lord I was kind of punchy. Now that I've had some sleep, I'll go grab a shower and some food and go find a early morning showing and re-evaluate it. But right now as it stands, I think it's firmly in the middle of the pack. Better than E1 and 2, lightyears behind E4, 5 and 3 and just slightly behind E6. A good movie, a fun movie, but it didnt blow my socks off and send them across the room.

Edited by Desslok

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Have to say I'm incredibly biased on this movie, so my opinion isn't worth much, but I liked it. It was very bittersweet for me though. My dad's favorite character was Han Solo, and after my dad's death in 2000 from cancer, I've always bought a ticket for him to watch the movie with me. So this time, that empty seat seemed a little emptier ... and the way it happened, well, a child and their father ... ya know.

 

Anyway, one thing that I couldn't let go of is that I went in expecting Kylo and Rey to be twins, but after seeing it, I'm now conflicted in that assessment. While they very much fit into the Jacen/Jaina roles, Rey looks far more likely to be Luke's daughter than Han and Leia's. My reasons are as such;

 

1) Luke's X-Wing helmet. When we are first introduced to Rey's "house" we see her wearing the helmet of an X-Wing pilot. This is Luke's helmet from Episode's 4 and 5. There was a clip of her wearing a helmet in an ABC special that had the gold phoenix symbols, but in the actual film, those appear to have been color-corrected to red, making a helmet that looked close to Luke's the same as Luke's.

 

2) We have Maz Kanata talking about Anakin's lightsaber being passed father to son, and now calling to her. I can't see it skipping then to a niece thematically or mythologically - it demands a direct lineage. That also indicates Luke's parentage. Additionally, Maz talks about her knowing the answer to her family already. She had from the beginning stated that she was waiting for her family. Now, she thinks she can't leave Jakku because she's waiting, but Maz points out she already knows that reuniting with her family doesn't lie in the past, but instead in the road ahead. This points to the idea that her quest to be reunited is something that began the day she was left behind, and will be herpush forward. This push doesn't end with her getting to the Resistance base, when presumably she would find her family with Leia/Han (if she were Kylo's sister), but instead propels her on to find Luke.

 

3) The memory of seeing her family leave on the shuttle. Rey is clearly not an infant, but instead a young girl between 4 and 6. This means it would make no sense for her to be Han and Leia's girl, as she would still be recognizable when Leia and Han see her next. Moreover, she would remember having a brother, and Kylo would most assuredly recognize his twin sibling. Amongst all the above players, however, only Kylo Ren seems to have any inkling that he should know her. It seems to me to be more plausible that this glimpse of recognition comes in the form of knowing that Skywalker had a daughter. He would know this if he was training under him. If Luke had a daughter when he went into hiding, then Han and Leia would assuredly know that. They would however, have assumed that he took her with him into isolation, therefore would not have any reason to assume it was Rey when she showed up. Moreover, Luke went into hiding because he blamed himself for Kylo's fall, and so he wouldn't have wanted to "fail" again with his own daughter, nor put her into danger as he was himself in, and so he left her on Jakku. This allows for Han/Leia to not recognize her, while Kylo has some twinge of connection (he could even assume that Skywalker may have left his location with her to reunite - a hunch that isn't true but gives depth to his reaction).

 

4) Mechanical Aptitude. This is a tough one. Rey's ability to jury rig just about anything and fly anything clearly marks her as having ties to Jaina. This seemingly supports the twins argument until we realize that Luke also was a natural pilot, and while it isn't clearly shown in the movies, was implied that he like his father was a natural tinkerer. This means that it is as likely to be Luke's aptitude she is inheriting rather than Han's.

 

5) R2's awakening. While it is convenient that R2 finishes his search at the precise moment Rey shows up, it is also a possibility that Rey's presence reawakened him instead. R2, like Anakin's lightsaber, has always been tied to Anakin and Luke. This natural interaction continues with Rey's appearance at the Resistance base. It was almost as if R2's message was for her - this is played out by R2 and Chewie accompanying Rey alone to find Luke.

 

6) Luke's reaction to her. There is a look of recognition (and almost pity) on Luke's face as he turns at the end. This is the first of the big three that clearly reacts to her at first sight, and implies that this "treasure hunt" was set by Luke to only ever be completed by one person - the daughter he left on Jakku. She stands holding Anakin's lightsaber to him, as if the journey it began (which was tied by Maz's words to her reuniting with her family) has now ended with her returning it to Luke. This presents the end of Rey's family journey, thus implying that by finding Luke she is now reunited with her family.

 

 

Of course, it might just be that I'm really just looking for a way that Mara Jade can be said to have existed.  ;) 

Edited by Kyla

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Saw the movie last night with some friends. Overall I'm happy as I got what I wanted, a movie that was better than the prequels. Just a little something about Rey, a lot of people are complaining about her being able to use the force with no training, which I think is false; she is clearly one of Luke's padawans that Ren turns on. I'll go one further and say I believe she is Ren's sister/Han and Leia's daughter. Now you might be thinking, but they never mention a daughter only a son, well they all probably think she is dead. The only person who probably knows who she is, is Ren. When he killed all the other padawans, he probably had a moment of lightside weakness and couldn't bring himself to kill her, so he hide her on Jakku. 

 

The movie goes out of it's way to show how much she and Han are alike on the MF, that isn't just in there for the lulz. It is a hint! Anywho, if she had padawan training, and just had her memory wiped by Ren, it makes sense that she starts to instinctively rediscover some of that.

 

Also, as for Ren struggling with a former Stormtrooper and a "untrained" force sensitive, you have to remember he started all of that  with a gut shot from a Wookie bowcaster. Twice in the movie they showed how powerful that gun was, so that when he got hit we knew it was bad. My friend, who is bigger into the EU stuff than I, talked about how Han technically would have been knocked on his ass every time he fired that gun it is so powerful, and Ren took it and then went to the fight. 

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I'm actually cool with the idea of Rey not being a Solo, and instead agree with a lot of what Kyla says about the possibility of her being Luke's daughter.

 

One of the recurring complaints from this thread is that this movie rehashed a lot of older themes from the prior movies, and if you think about it, a lot of Rey's character is itself a rehash of Anakin and Luke, starting with being raised on a desert world and on up to a natural ability to use the Force, only with a female character instead of a male one.

 

As for Kylo's fights with Finn and Rey, I think to some extent he was toying with them in spite of his wounded state.  He felt that neither of them was really a threat, and he did still need Rey to get the map data to track down Luke Skywalker since BB-8 was pretty much out of reach.

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My thoughts (after one viewing).

 

  • Kylo/Ben and Rey could still be siblings if not twins. There could be a difference in age between them.
  • The initial crawl mentioned that the reason for Luke's disappearance was Kylo's fall to the Dark side during his training.
  • Rey, being a younger sister, could possibly have been hidden away to keep her out of reach of Kylo. It seemed to me that Kylo either knew or highly suspected who she was even if he never stated it. And much like other movies wanted to bring her to the Dark side. Keep it in the family.
  • Rey, as a daughter of Leia, is a direct decendant of Anakin if not Luke.
  • She does exhibit many abilities ascribed to Anakin in that she is a natural pilot and very tech-savvy.

Gotta go.

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