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The Spoilerrific Super Duper Episode Seven Megathread!

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I feel bad for the people that didn't like it. Given the amount of cash it's making I wouldn't plan on the other 2 being overwhelmingly different.

 

I think in the long term TFA will be more likeable. I think once the entire story is told TFA will feel more complete. As a stand alone project I don't think TFA does a good job of being a movie. I imagine once we see the other two though it will feel more complete. But right now judiging it as is, it was somewhat underwhelming. *shrugs* I'm sure it gets better though. Disney knows what it's doing and knows how to make movies. 

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I discovered this article that explains a lot of things happened between Ep VI and Ep VII

however, these are a lot of spoiler, so we warned!

 

I like this link and it cleared up a lot. I just wish they had found a way to fit more of that information into the film. 

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So I'm definitely going to need to see it again, but so far I can say only one thing really got me in a negative way. Probably because I don't have the same impressionable mind of a child anymore (say nothing), but for some reason the galaxy felt very small in this movie. I know visually the OT had only a few planets that were visited, but just they way people spoke and acted made everything seem populous and alive. This one kind of lacked that, somehow. Again, it might be me being older now, but I don't know.

 

First impression is still good. Not getting any deeper than that, because any attempt at rational explanation behind an emotional reaction is bunk.

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Sigh.  

 

The Good:  The movie looked good, very Star Warsey.  The CGI was not abused, and except for the New Order everything looked new but familiar.  The action was great, much better than the over the top action of newer action flicks, and the prequels.  I like the characters of Finn, Poe, and Rey.  I look forward to seeing them in the next films.

 

The Mediocre: The plot was recycled, this does not bother me too much but something other than just a bigger Death Star would have been nice.  The laser being planet seeking?, I guess using hyperspace? and being seen to destroy planets from a planet in another star system?  It just makes the "galaxy" seem more like the Firefly system.  The First Order uniforms and storm trooper armor seemed poorly tailored and rounded off, to be more cuddly maybe?  There were a couple of  scenes of poor use of CGI, a little jarring because of how well the rest of the film was done.  I could go on with nit-picks but at the end of the day these were nit-picks.

 

The Bad:  Specifically the the Bad Guys, were underwhelming.  Chump Vader was a weak petulant boy who almost lost a fight to a storm trooper and then lost a fight to a completely untrained force sensitive.  Wet-behind-the-ears Tarkin was better but an actor with at least a little bit of presence would have been far better.  And finally Rey just got too powerful too fast.  She probably should have lost the last fight or had Chump Vader taken out in some other fashion.  There were a number of ways in which this could have been much better.

 

At the end of the day this was a good movie.  It just could have been so much better if the bad guys had been credible threats.

 

^2

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Finn - Yes it was his first Actual time being deployed on a Mission. He was also recently transferred to Phasma's command from his duties on the base. He was raised to be a Storm Trooper with no record of non compliance prior to that mission. 

I think the blood mark on Finn helmet on first sequence, where he realize is'nt right and like, is a reference to Clone Wars' episodes where a senior officer told to cadet clonetrooper to start customizing their armor and call themselves with a name, to start individual thinking...

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So I've figured out the true masterminds.

 

The Knights of Ren were/are legit, but manipulating into the vengeful hands of none other than...

 

Lando Calrissian, grown bitter over Han taking the Falcon and inadvertently losing him Cloud City. Snoke is really just Lobot. Search your feelings; you know it to be true.

 

You can thank me later.

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Something I saw posted by John Wick (guy behind L5R and 7th Seas) over on Facebook that I think has merit...

 

"TFA was made not only to hit the nostalgia button for the long-term pre-existing fans, but primarily to bring in new fans and then get everybody on roughly the same page in terms of the new story."

 

I can buy that, as there were a lot of children who would have been too young to have seen the prequels in the theater, so for them, this is their first Star Wars movie, with parents wanting to share that experience with their kids.

 

And at it's heart of hearts, Star Wars has always been a fairly simple fairy tale with sci-fi trappings, a story of good vs. evil without a tremendous amount of nuance.  The prequels tried for added nuance and grander scope... and fell flat on its face with a lot of people because of it.

 

TFA isn't trying to be some grand art piece as a whole, but instead is a series of cool moments and memorable dialogue that add up to be a fun and enjoyable experience.  Not unlike the originals, which if you take each film as a self-contained whole, really aren't all that amazing as a grand art piece, but instead are a series of really cool moments and memorable dialogue that added up to be a fun and enjoyable experience.

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Chump Vader was a weak petulant boy who almost lost a fight to a storm trooper and then lost a fight to a completely untrained force sensitive.  Wet-behind-the-ears Tarkin was better but an actor with at least a little bit of presence would have been far better.  And finally Rey just got too powerful too fast.  She probably should have lost the last fight or had Chump Vader taken out in some other fashion.  There were a number of ways in which this could have been much better.

 

As stated in the movie, Kylo Ren also has not been fully trained. I'll give you he DOES show powerful uses of the Force (he's a Skywalker), but Snoke at the end does state it's time to FINISH his training.

 

I think we are going to find out more about Rey that explains what we saw. I don't think she's going to be a force sensitive that suddenly discovered her powers all on her own*. I'm speculating (and many others have also) that Rey was a youngling that was rescued from the massacre at Luke's new Jedi Academy. For her own protection she was dumped upon Jakku at the age of perhaps 5? 7? Due to the trauma of the events, her young age, and/or someone making her forget via the Force, she forgot what she once was and only recalls she was left by her "family" with a promise they would be back someday. I would need to view the dream sequence again, but young Rey did seem to be wearing something similar to what we saw younglings wearing in Ep. 3. So, the events of Ep. 7 woke her up. She began recalling some of her old training. Add to it she is perhaps the daughter of Luke Skywalker and I'm ok with her holding her own against the also-not-fully trained Kylo Ren.

 

*What if she was never a youngling and thus a powerful force sensitive that discovered her powers all on her own? If her father is Luke, he also started doing some things all on his own without being trained (I'm not considering two rounds with a laser ball and some words from Ben as training). Luke uses the Force to guide a proton torpedo into DS1 and force grab a lightsaber. Without being trained. I like the prior youngling training explanation for Rey much better, but even without this there IS some precedent in canon.

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I discovered this article that explains a lot of things happened between Ep VI and Ep VII

however, these are a lot of spoiler, so we warned!

 

I like this link and it cleared up a lot. I just wish they had found a way to fit more of that information into the film. 

 

Problem is a lot of it would be needless exposition that the larger viewing audience doesn't need to know, and would have bogged down the pacing of the film.

 

The prequels tried for that, and consider how they're viewed.

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So I'm definitely going to need to see it again, but so far I can say only one thing really got me in a negative way. Probably because I don't have the same impressionable mind of a child anymore (say nothing), but for some reason the galaxy felt very small in this movie. I know visually the OT had only a few planets that were visited, but just they way people spoke and acted made everything seem populous and alive. This one kind of lacked that, somehow. Again, it might be me being older now, but I don't know.

 

First impression is still good. Not getting any deeper than that, because any attempt at rational explanation behind an emotional reaction is bunk.

I think something to consider is just content overload. You had to shoe horn in the OT cast, intro the new characters and make them great, lay the ground work for a new threat and story, and do it in roughly 2 hours. I think quite a bit of people's grievances would have required a 4 hour movie to accomplish. I do agree Abrams gets an F - in astronomy space/time scale.

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I discovered this article that explains a lot of things happened between Ep VI and Ep VII

however, these are a lot of spoiler, so we warned!

 

I like this link and it cleared up a lot. I just wish they had found a way to fit more of that information into the film. 

 

Problem is a lot of it would be needless exposition that the larger viewing audience doesn't need to know, and would have bogged down the pacing of the film.

 

The prequels tried for that, and consider how they're viewed.

 

 

I'm pretty sure there is a middle ground. Hell maybe they could have put some of that info in the opening crawl. But when your story takes place 30 some odds years after the last story you kinda need exposition to catch the audience up from the last time we saw the story. The movie feels lacking without more details to ground the story. 

Edited by Kael

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I'm sorry if the propaganda-rant-to-the-troops contained plot. Just tuned it all out. All I could think of was that if my Imperial deserter Edge character had had to listen to that kind of bleep he'd have been out of there a lot sooner!

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What I *will* say though is that if they were going to eliminate it, they could have at least made an effort to come up with an original idea.  Instead, they only had 6 ideas in the whole franchise that had already been done...they could have done anything else and it would have been new.  Instead they ripped off two of the already done ideas.  Ripping off an EU storyline would have been a cop out, but at least it would have been "technically original"...in this case, they're re-hashing a plot that's already been used even in their stripped down body of lore...twice.

 

Oh...and moving it into a new era has done nothing for Star Wars...clearly.  They're still using X-wings to fly down trenches and blow up huge battle stations capable of destroying planets.  The "moving into a new era" is updating the appearances and names of a few characters and some gear and redoing the same story.

 

 

Yes, it would have been awesome to see them come up with a more Original Idea, but as I already said and it was said by others. They played it safe. Which has as much to do with rebuilding the relationship with fans as it does bringing in new ones. 

They really didn't eliminate the EU.. All they did was set it aside. It is just officially not cannon now. Which is not all that different from how things where prior, but now we have the distinction instead of guessing. As for what is happening with the EU. It has already been said that the EU will be utilized in creating the new cannon and we have started to see that. 

As for using a EU Storyline - It is easily argued that they did use some EU Storylines in TFA. Now it wasn't a complete story, but its obvious that some inspiration for them came from the EU.  

To use a complete Story from the EU, which is what I assume you are referring to by "Storyline", is not a Cop-out and it would not be considered Orginial. It would be an adaptation of the novel/comic/game etc.   

 

Moving into new Era has done nothing? You really are going to argue that point when 1.) We are getting a new Star Wars movies every year till 2020 which TFA Starts us off with. 2.) This is the first movie out of the New LucasFilm which Star Wars is governed by the the Story Group which has a plan for everything from the Movies to Comics will have its place in Cannon. 3.)  see Donvan Morningfire's post

 

Something I saw posted by John Wick (guy behind L5R and 7th Seas) over on Facebook that I think has merit...

 

"TFA was made not only to hit the nostalgia button for the long-term pre-existing fans, but primarily to bring in new fans and then get everybody on roughly the same page in terms of the new story."

 

 

I understand the movie did not work for you as you wanted it too. In fact, I actually prefer and respect your complaints about the movie vs a lot of the ones I have seen. Some of what I said was not meant to be directly aimed at you as it has come off. I did use your posting as a jump off to hit several places as I think you had a much more valid point to make than many others. So I will leave it at that. 

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To use a complete Story from the EU, which is what I assume you are referring to by "Storyline", is not a Cop-out and it would not be considered Orginial. It would be an adaptation of the novel/comic/game etc.   

Wrong.

 

By new storyline, I mean, do something that hasn't already been done (sometimes twice) in what little lore you didn't eliminate (or set aside, or whatever you want to call it).  By this line of reasoning they *could* have recycled an old EU plot which, while still not original, would have been better than eliminating all of that and still having to revert to giving us yet another SW movie involving blowing up a huge space station with a daring raid.  Now we have three of those in 7 movies.  At this rate, Ep. 9 will be about the First order turning a star into a stellar battering ram, and Poe and Finn will have to attack it while Rey duels Ren onboard, and has to escape before it gets blown up underneath her feet.

 

 

 

Moving into new Era has done nothing? You really are going to argue that point when 1.) We are getting a new Star Wars movies every year till 2020 which TFA Starts us off with. 2.) This is the first movie out of the New LucasFilm which Star Wars is governed by the the Story Group which has a plan for everything from the Movies to Comics will have its place in Cannon. 3.)  see Donvan Morningfire's post

1) I'd rather have no new movies than movies that do nothing with the setting that hasn't already been done before in previous movies.  And while the one-offs may accomplish this, they're not out yet.  I'm basing my standpoint on what we've actually got.  Not just personal speculation on the content and quality things that don't exist yet.  If that's a serious foundation upon which your position is based, you may want to re-think.

 

2) Okay.  Nothing in that point in any way goes against my statements.

 

3) Unless he's some sort of Lucasfilm rep, it doesn't matter in the slightest what he's posting.  He's got absolutely no authority upon which to speak beyond what you and I have.  If you agree, great, if not, that's okay too.  I've posted back and forth with him since well before this site was a thing.  Decent enough person, a few mutual friends, but we've almost always been miles apart on subjective opinion of things, and I'm generally not a fan of the patronizing delivery that often comes with.  Not a big deal, and there's certainly no animosity, but I'm not sure why you think that citing another random poster's opinions is at all relevant.

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To use a complete Story from the EU, which is what I assume you are referring to by "Storyline", is not a Cop-out and it would not be considered Orginial. It would be an adaptation of the novel/comic/game etc.   

Wrong.

 

By new storyline, I mean, do something that hasn't already been done (sometimes twice) in what little lore you didn't eliminate (or set aside, or whatever you want to call it).  By this line of reasoning they *could* have recycled an old EU plot which, while still not original, would have been better than eliminating all of that and still having to revert to giving us yet another SW movie involving blowing up a huge space station with a daring raid.  Now we have three of those in 7 movies.  At this rate, Ep. 9 will be about the First order turning a star into a stellar battering ram, and Poe and Finn will have to attack it while Rey duels Ren onboard, and has to escape before it gets blown up underneath her feet.

 

 

Okay, glad to clear up that you were referring to any new plot not just adapting an EU Novel.  

As for the rest that you posted. You said a lot of it before and I really see it as a good argument that they went Safe with TFA.  As for the use of the EU, I already covered that.

Not going to go into the Assumption for Ep 9. It sounds like someone who is hurt that the EU is out and from what you said before I know your not. So it I am just leave it be.  

As for blowing up a large Spherical Object. It is 4 times in 7 movies - 1 Large Ship, 2 Space Stations, and a Planet (Not 3 Space Stations). Just throwing that out.. helps out you argument actually..

 

 

1) I'd rather have no new movies than movies that do nothing with the setting that hasn't already been done before in previous movies.  And while the one-offs may accomplish this, they're not out yet.  I'm basing my standpoint on what we've actually got.  Not just personal speculation on the content and quality things that don't exist yet.  If that's a serious foundation upon which your position is based, you may want to re-think.

 

2) Okay.  Nothing in that point in any way goes against my statements.

 

3) Unless he's some sort of Lucasfilm rep, it doesn't matter in the slightest what he's posting.  He's got absolutely no authority upon which to speak beyond what you and I have.  If you agree, great, if not, that's okay too.  I've posted back and forth with him since well before this site was a thing.  Decent enough person, a few mutual friends, but we've almost always been miles apart on subjective opinion of things, and I'm generally not a fan of the patronizing delivery that often comes with.  Not a big deal, and there's certainly no animosity, but I'm not sure why you think that citing another random poster's opinions is at all relevant.

 

 

1.) I am basing my position on what we have gotten. Yes, I can see many similar themes in TFA from OT, but that is what helps its transition into a New Era. We get to see a bit of what has happened to Characters we care about. While introducing us to New Heroes while still having that familiar feeling of what Star Wars is. From what we have seen it is not all about the OT Characters. They maybe the drive force behind certain plot points, but it is the New Characters and their stories that will take us forward.  In a way we both are personally speculating on how this actually impacts the Star Wars Universe as it is not just the next chapter, but a reintroduction. 

As for the setting itself. It has similar themes, but I would not consider it the same thing. 

2.)If you look at TFA alone it is not that relevant point, but because TFA is such a big part of this New Era in Star Wars in general and not just the movies. TFA becomes the cornerstone for things going forward. This is the thing that my argument hinges on. We are not just getting new movies, but we are getting an interconnected universe that crosses different Media. Yes this began before TFA, but TFA is the launching pad for most people. TFA's Novelization is a great example. It is Cannon and it adds to the Lore with things in it that are not seen on screen. Meaning unlike with the EU. What is written in Novels, Comics, TV Shows, etc.. actually will be tied in and effect the movies. 

3.) DonvanMorningFire's post quoted something someone else had posted on FB which he felt had Merit and I thought did also. I could have put it in my own words for my argument, but it would have come out too similar. So I felt I needed to give credit where it was due. It really summed up what I wanted to say on that point.

 

 

I have myself have had back and forth postings with Donvan and yourself before. I respect both of your opinions very much. Neither of are LucasFilm Reps, but you know Star Wars and are not blind fanboys.

As you said we don't have to agree and that is okay. I get where you are coming from and that is why I have enjoyed the dialogue between us here. To be honest I don't think either of us is truly wrong in our views of what TFA is to Star Wars. Just different. 

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I think people aren't terribly realistic in their expectations.  Between the $4 billion paid for the IP, and the $200 + million in production costs per movie, precisely how daring and trend setting did people expect Disney to be with a 10, pushing 11, figure investment that becomes a pivot point for the company's financial life going forward? To have not played it safe with what they did storywise with TFA would have been a benchmark for F-ing stupid.

Edited by 2P51

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 In a way we both are personally speculating on how this actually impacts the Star Wars Universe as it is not just the next chapter, but a reintroduction. 

As for the setting itself. It has similar themes, but I would not consider it the same thing. 

I'm very strictly *not* speculating.

 

You keep talking about this "New Era", as if there's a whole lot of good that has come about as a result of this one movie being ho-hum...so far, it is the only thing we have, movie-wise, so while I won't use that against it, I also don't think it's fair to give it a pass for its flaws and weaknesses based on nonexistent "other stuff".

 

And let me be clear: if TFA had simply borrowed thematically from the OT, even heavily, that would have been a positive in my mind.  But to defend "playing it safe" to the extent of simply swapping out a few character names and reorganizing a few scenes of near-identical OT material...if that's all you wanted, then you got your Ep. 7 when they released the OT Special Editions: visually appealing, a few tiny bits of new content, same old story.

 

I guess I just set the bar for a "good Star Wars movie" a little bit higher than "I don't need any storytelling, creativity, or development...just give me a few lightsabers and X-wings, and I'll love it no matter what".  It is somewhat telling when the most common responses I get to my criticisms are along the lines of, "at least it doesn't have (insert flaw here) like the prequels" and/or punting the obligation to be a good movie by saying "it's part of a greater series of movies, so it doesn't have to be good on its own".

 

 

 

I think people aren't terribly realistic in their expectations.

If asking for something other than "another movie where X-wings blow up the big ball of doom...again" is asking too much, I'd say those people are deciding where to set the bar specifically and solely based on making sure that bar is low enough for the movie to surpass it, as well as doing any mental gymnastics necessary to make excuses for every shortcoming, whether that means outright denial, appealing to the omniscience of the writers, or general apologism to the tune of "if it has a Star Wars label on it, it's good".

 

So they've paid all that money to get hip new DJs to sample old tracks and dish up a remix with at most 5-10% actual original creative content?  I guess since most SW consumers seem to be good with that, it's a good business move.  I just expected more, and consider it mildly insulting that they're playing me the same song and expecting me to buy it when they call themselves songwriters.

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I think people aren't terribly realistic in their expectations.  Between the $4 billion paid for the IP, and the $200 + million in production costs per movie, precisely how daring and trend setting did people expect Disney to be with a 10, pushing 11, figure investment that becomes a pivot point for the company's financial life going forward? To have not played it safe with what they did storywise with TFA would have been a benchmark for F-ing stupid.

Can't disagree with that.

The single biggest thing TFA had to do was restore faith. I think it did that. The film wasn't perfect, but it accomplished a lot for two hours. It established a new cast of characters, tied in all the old characters to legitimize it (Same reason Nimoy was in JJ's Star Trek reboot) without letting them overshadow the new, and it laid some groundwork for future films to expand upon. So yeah, they played it safe with a lot of fan service, but I expect to see the balance tip more towards original story as we get a bit more in. If Episode VIII features Luke riding around on Rey's shoulders while speaking in backwards sentences, then I will come back here and recant my cautious optimism.

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 In a way we both are personally speculating on how this actually impacts the Star Wars Universe as it is not just the next chapter, but a reintroduction. 

As for the setting itself. It has similar themes, but I would not consider it the same thing. 

I'm very strictly *not* speculating.

 

You keep talking about this "New Era", as if there's a whole lot of good that has come about as a result of this one movie being ho-hum...so far, it is the only thing we have, movie-wise, so while I won't use that against it, I also don't think it's fair to give it a pass for its flaws and weaknesses based on nonexistent "other stuff".

 

And let me be clear: if TFA had simply borrowed thematically from the OT, even heavily, that would have been a positive in my mind.  But to defend "playing it safe" to the extent of simply swapping out a few character names and reorganizing a few scenes of near-identical OT material...if that's all you wanted, then you got your Ep. 7 when they released the OT Special Editions: visually appealing, a few tiny bits of new content, same old story.

 

I guess I just set the bar for a "good Star Wars movie" a little bit higher than "I don't need any storytelling, creativity, or development...just give me a few lightsabers and X-wings, and I'll love it no matter what".  It is somewhat telling when the most common responses I get to my criticisms are along the lines of, "at least it doesn't have (insert flaw here) like the prequels" and/or punting the obligation to be a good movie by saying "it's part of a greater series of movies, so it doesn't have to be good on its own".

 

 

 

I think people aren't terribly realistic in their expectations.

If asking for something other than "another movie where X-wings blow up the big ball of doom...again" is asking too much, I'd say those people are deciding where to set the bar specifically and solely based on making sure that bar is low enough for the movie to surpass it, as well as doing any mental gymnastics necessary to make excuses for every shortcoming, whether that means outright denial, appealing to the omniscience of the writers, or general apologism to the tune of "if it has a Star Wars label on it, it's good".

 

So they've paid all that money to get hip new DJs to sample old tracks and dish up a remix with at most 5-10% actual original creative content?  I guess since most SW consumers seem to be good with that, it's a good business move.  I just expected more, and consider it mildly insulting that they're playing me the same song and expecting me to buy it when they call themselves songwriters.

 

Your expectations weren't realistic.  When a company lays out $4 billion for something, yes, it's all business decisions. I'm positive they don't care if you're insulted either.

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Your expectations weren't realistic.  When a company lays out $4 billion for something, yes, it's all business decisions. I'm positive they don't care if you're insulted either.

 

If it's unrealistic for them to do something other than put out a re-run of old movies, then I feel bad for you with your acceptance of mediocrity.

 

Sorry, I'm just not as happy with zero effort storytelling as you are, I guess.  

 

They really shouldn't care if I'm insulted, when they've got people like you out there defending their lousy, no-effort cash grab, and blaming the honest, realistic viewer for having standards.

 

You better go out and buy a few more random things with a SW logo slapped on the side to offset the 2nd and 3rd viewings that I won't be going to see.

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In the end, my opinion of TFA is as follows: it didn't disappoint, but it didn't impress either. If it is the weakest of the three new movies then that'll be ok. A lot of my final judgement will rest on what Ep VIII brings to the table.

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If Episode VIII features Luke riding around on Rey's shoulders while speaking in backwards sentences, then I will come back here and recant my cautious optimism.

 

My prediction:

 

After the destruction of the Hosnian system and the Republic fleet, the Resistance is left reeling.  The movie opens with the First Order discovering their hidden base and rooting them out.  At some point in the escape, Finn is captured by Kylo Ren, who attempts to turn him to the dark side, or at least use him to find Rey, who is training with Luke.  

 

Rey senses this and goes off to confront Ren and get Finn back.  She fails and Ren trounces her in their meeting, revealing how she fits into the Skywalker bloodline.

 

The movie ends with Poe and a new character or two rescuing Rey from her defeat.

 

...the only thing I can't figure out is whether they'll visit a "totally not a Hutt gangster" or meet a race of normally peaceful natives who they'll convince to fight the First Order with them...not sure which particular part of RotJ they'll incorporate in this one.

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