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The Spoilerrific Super Duper Episode Seven Megathread!

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So yea, you're right, the scene I was lacking is there already xD man I hate the pacing of this movie.

 

Personally, it went against my narrative sensibilities, too. My first post about TFA actually contained that as a criticism. I write novels for a living and I would never get away with that ... ;)

 

But in the context of Star Wars, Rey fits right in with the main characters of the previous trilogies. Luke is almost the same, in Star Wars he becomes an ace pilot because his father was - that is how fairytale genetics work, after all -, and later he becomes a Jedi Knight in an exceedingly short amount of training. That is OK, space knights need their trusty steeds (X-Wings) and swords (lightsabers), and Luke is basically Percival. Of course, it jarringly contrasts with everything the Prequels tell us, and is one major reason why Yoda is probably the most self-contradictory character of the whole franchise. Anakin is even worse, at least in regard to his mechanical genius shtick, which is neither explained - the Force is about life, not conduits - nor needed and subsequently all but dropped in the later movies.

 

So, saying that Star Wars has the habit of presenting supremely talented individuals going from zero to hero is OK (as is liking or not liking that), but leveraging that against Rey is not, because of all that came before her. She is just one character in a line just like her, the embodiment of Star Wars traditions.

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I'm actually fine with all the un-answered questions because my Star Wars nerdiness is going to fill in the blanks from all the devouring of Star Wars related material I consume.  The thing that bugged me the most and continues to become more glaringly obvious the more I watch the film (3 times now, 4th tomorrow) is how much it just rips from ANH/OT.  TFA really doesn't bring anything new to the table other than some great new characters and a handful of new aliens.  To make sure it wasn't just my imagining:

 

Droid with secret plans/map needs to flee planet with unlikely heroes

Old mentor aids the unlikely heroes in their journey

One of the heroes learns of her connection to the Force

Old mentor is killed by family-related villain

Old mentor and heroes sneak around super weapon base

Villains have planet-destroying super weapon

Villains use super weapon once

Heroes have to shut down the shield around the super weapon for the Rebels/Resistance to attack

Villains plan to use super weapon on secret rebel/resistance base

Trench Run, destroy core of super weapon before it fires

One of the heroes goes off to find another old mentor/master

 

There are echos of the OT in the PT but nothing that ^ blatantly obvious, even taking the Ring Theory into consideration.  Consider: TPM and RotJ vs. TFA and ANH ^.  When one watches the PT (if anyone still does  :( ) you don't get the sense (at least no one that I know of or have ever heard of until the Ring Theory) the PT was a rehash of the OT.

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Guys, FFS stop using words like reboot, remake, etc. It is a giant disservice to what the movie is...

 

You don't get to decide what we can say, sorry.

 

 

 

What are you 12?

 

 

 

Then again there is no accounting for nerd rage and entitlement.

 

Disappointing there's so much aggression and obnoxious behaviour when opinions differ, and that some people can't debate politely.

 

I was a regular here a few years ago, but the tone of debate started to become so unpleasant I no longer want to bother.

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DanteRotterdam,

Based on what I've seen in places other than this thread about the grousing of "plot holes," is that a lot of it comes down to the viewing audience being a lot older than we were when watching the original movies, and thus eager for more information than what is really necessary for the film to tell the story it told.

 

ANH was filmed more as a "one and done" film, something that most viewers can't conceptualize these days because Star Wars has always been a thing and was very successful back when it came out as opposed to the "flop" that Lucas was predicting it would be.  I've little doubt that if Lucas well and truly knew that he'd have a multi-billion dollar franchise on his hands, there would have been several elements in ANH that would have been left for supplemental material.  Hell, with just ANH we barely have any idea of what a Jedi Knight was, or that the Clone Wars was what lead to the Empire seizing power, or that the Emperor was a diabolical mastermind, or where the Death Star even came from (all we know from the film and just the film is that it was fairly recent, as Alderaan was the first demonstration of it's power).

 

TFA was filmed with the full knowledge that there will be other movies, but even ANH left a lot of "unanswered questions" about the state of the galaxy.  But when your age can be counted in single digits, you typically don't care about that sort of thing, but instead just want to be entertained.  But again, TFA was made in a era where the rights-holder knows **** well that they've got the biggest merchandise franchises in the world, and Disney knows that the fanbase is obsessive enough that they'll buy the tie-in media, so they're comfortable with placing side info in sources like the movie novelization or the visual guide.  Because let's face it, the general movie-viewing audience doesn't give a flying womprat's backside about those various background elements that are largely superfluous to the main story that TFA was seeking to tell.  It's akin to how the Lord of the Rings films cut out tons of superfluous elements from the books (Tom Bombadil anyone?) so that the films wouldn't be bogged down with things that weren't essential to the story and thus of minimal (if any) interest to the average movie-goer.  Considering one of the major complaints of The Hobbit films was the excessive padding, Jackson was right to trim LotR.

 

Now, Is there information "missing" that would be nice to have in context of running a campaign in that era?  Certainly, but none of that information is really critical for the plot of the movie.  While I thought the overall pacing was fine (kept moving but not too quick, and certainly not dragging like the prequels did at points), I could see where it might be too fast for some and how some elements (like Maz strongly suggesting to Rey the direction of her destiny) could be missed.

 

One of my friends on Facebook posted an interesting observation, how TFA seems to be having the opposite effect of TPM.  Back in '99, there was a lot of effort by a smaller portion of the fanbase to convince folks that it was good, that TPM had merits.  Now, it's the opposite, with a fairly small and but extremely vocal portion of the fanbase trying to convince folks that TFA isn't a good movie.

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TFA really doesn't bring anything new to the table other than some great new characters and a handful of new aliens.

Well, bear in mind that for a decade, people were complaining that the prequels didn't "feel" anything like the Star Wars films the grew up with.

 

Does the main plot of TFA borrow/copy heavily from the OT?  Yes, and I don't see anyone denying it.

 

But doing so wasn't a bad thing, as the ticket sales and over 90% positive review ratings from Rotten Tomatoes currently shows.  To a great many people, the fact that TFA did borrow/copy so heavily from the OT was a good thing, as it delivered an entertaining movie that wasn't bogged down with political elements like trade disputes and secession crisis.  TFA gives us elements that are slightly different but still familiar enough that folks can enjoy it.

 

To be honest, a great many movies make use of the same basic plot structure, at least when an action-centric movie bothers to have an actual plot.  Hell, Lucas ripped off himself when making the prequels, as those films all have the same basic plot structure as the originals, just with a few minor variations.  So if nothing else, Disney and Abrams are following in footsteps of the guy that created the franchise in the first place.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, TFA was Disney playing it relatively safe with the film that's launching their tenure of the Star Wars film franchise, aside from having none of the three major leads being a white male (a major risk for a big-budget action movie that pretty much has to succeed or the franchise will be DOA).  The real test will be if the continue to play it completely safe for the next two installments, or if they're willing to take some bigger risks.  There won't be any major risks taken, since Disney is very much a "for-profit" company and they're going to want the Star Wars films to do well at the box office, but now that the homage to the OT is in the can and on the screen, perhaps they'll begin to venture out into newer (for Star Wars at least) territory, such as having Rey and Kylo's growth as Force users in EpVIII mirror the other.

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But while I still have definite problems with both Poe and Finn (who from what I understand, that village raid was Finn's first mission? Or is that another thing I misunderstood due to what little information is in the movie being flown past at hyperspeed?) I'm good with Rey now. 

 

 

 

Poe is suppose to be the best of the best. The Top Gun of the Resistance. Which is relayed by Kylo during Poe's interrogation. What surprised me was how good he was, but I take it at face value. He is an exceptional pilot who is heads and shoulders above the others. Not unheard of really. Kinda like Star Wars Red Baron.

 

 

Wasn't Poe's status as the "best pilot in the resistance" (literally) spelled out in the opening crawl, and later reinforced by Ren?

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But when your age can be counted in single digits, you typically don't care about that sort of thing, but instead just want to be entertained. 

 

If the movie was for them, it should have been a screening of a TPM re-hash instead of a screening of an ANH re-hash.

 

Ultimately, this movie wasn't aimed at 8 year olds.

 

 

 

To be honest, a great many movies make use of the same basic plot structure, at least when an action-centric movie bothers to have an actual plot.  Hell, Lucas ripped off himself when making the prequels, as those films all have the same basic plot structure as the originals, just with a few minor variations.  So if nothing else, Disney and Abrams are following in footsteps of the guy that created the franchise in the first place.

How many movies have a plot line consisting of: person entrusts valuable information to little robot on desert planet, robot and hero discover one another and quickly become caught up in larger events.  Through a tense adventure, hero and robot escape desert planet with information and get it back to the good guys.  Meanwhile, the bad guys blow up a planet that's never seen on screen until its destruction, with a massive celestial body with a superweapon built in.  As the bad guys' superweapon closes in on the good guys' base, the good guys attack,  flying down a trench and destroying the base just before it destroys them.

 

Two weeks ago, the answer was one.  Now it's two.  If that's not a retelling, I don't know what is.

 

The only differences between the two can be measured in "How much did TFA rip off RotJ instead of TPM: In order to destroy the bad guys' base, we need to sneak in and knock out the Special Thing.  So let's send a team to do just that, but in the process, complications happen so that we can have a lightsaber fight and a space fight at the same time.

Edited by hydrospanner

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As I said earlier in this thread, TFA was Disney playing it relatively safe with the film that's launching their tenure of the Star Wars film franchise, aside from having none of the three major leads being a white male (a major risk for a big-budget action movie that pretty much has to succeed or the franchise will be DOA).  The real test will be if the continue to play it completely safe for the next two installments, or if they're willing to take some bigger risks.  There won't be any major risks taken, since Disney is very much a "for-profit" company and they're going to want the Star Wars films to do well at the box office, but now that the homage to the OT is in the can and on the screen, perhaps they'll begin to venture out into newer (for Star Wars at least) territory, such as having Rey and Kylo's growth as Force users in EpVIII mirror the other.

 

 

This is really spot on. I am just going to add that Yes we will see risks, but their is going to be more reason than just cause they can behind them. Disney is  a for profit company and they know that Star Wars is going to bring in big money for them. They also know the better product they put out that profit will sky rocket.. So they have an incentive to invest in doing things right from the start.  Something we can see in Disney's decision to put people who care about the Star Wars in charge of the Franchise.  

To be honest  I think the Episodes will be "Safe" in terms of how risky thing will get for now, but the Anthology movies are the question. Rogue One and the Han Solo Standalone movies will really show us how much in Risks LucasFilm is willing take. 

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But while I still have definite problems with both Poe and Finn (who from what I understand, that village raid was Finn's first mission? Or is that another thing I misunderstood due to what little information is in the movie being flown past at hyperspeed?) I'm good with Rey now. 

 

 

 

Poe is suppose to be the best of the best. The Top Gun of the Resistance. Which is relayed by Kylo during Poe's interrogation. What surprised me was how good he was, but I take it at face value. He is an exceptional pilot who is heads and shoulders above the others. Not unheard of really. Kinda like Star Wars Red Baron.

 

Finn - Yes it was his first Actual time being deployed on a Mission. He was also recently transferred to Phasma's command from his duties on the base. He was raised to be a Storm Trooper with no record of non compliance prior to that mission. 

 

 

For me the pacing was fine. If it was to fast for your tastes it is understandable your looking for the explanations you feel are there, but flew by you. 

 

Oh I know Poe is supposed to be the best of the Resistance, the best of like, 15 pilots, total. (I'm entirely unimpressed with the Resistance so far) Maybe if the next movie has a counterpart or two for him to show he doesn't simply vaporize any TIE that enters his field of vision I'll be able to take him a little more seriously. Because there's the Red Baron who was a brilliant aerial tactician who relied heavily on his squadmates and was far from perfect, being shot down on multiple occasions and landing damaged many more times, and Poe who one-shots everything he looks at while his squad falls apart around him. Watching him at the Starkiller fight felt a lot like Anakin in the Clone Wars series when he was leading his bombing run on the Malevolence, except no one was around to remind him that the rest of his squad isn't up to his skill level. (Note how the only pilots who come to mind at his skill level are Jedis; Luke and Anakin. At least that come to my mind.)

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And how many times did Indiana Jones movies use the exact same fundamental plot structure?  No less than FOUR times.  How about the 80's Slasher movies series like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street?  You've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all.  Have you seen Ant-Man?  90% of its core plot is just a repackaging of Iron Man, just with different window dressing.

 

I think hydrospanner was being far too literal when it came to my bit about films re-using the same basic plot structure.  Maybe they're one of those folks that really do need things spelled out for them.

 

I never said that other films specifically used ANH's plot structure, which quite frankly is itself a rehash of the Akira Kurosawa film "Hidden Fortress," so even with the initial Star Wars movie Lucas wasn't exactly being "totally original," which would make him just as much of a "hack director" as people are claiming Abrams is.  Then again, Lucas proved he wasn't worth much as a director with the prequels.

 

There are plenty of adults that enjoyed TFA based solely upon its own merits (92% out of nearly 150,000 user ratings on Rotten Tomatoes and good press all around), and simply don't give two ****s about those "missing plot elements" that a very small and overly vocal part of the alleged fanbase are obsessively whining about like you'd think they were told to finish their chores instead of heading off to pick up some power converters.  Those folks paid their money to be entertained for a couple of hours, and they got their money's worth.  Which at the end of the day, is really all that Disney cares about, is making their money back on the 4 billion price tag of the Star Wars franchise and that the masses are entertained.

 

But then, I guess some people just feel the need to ***** and whine about how the new movie wasn't as nearly "good" as their heavily rose-tinted glasses tell them the original films were.

 

So you know what, screw this thread.  I went into the theater hoping for a fun Star Wars movie, and I got exactly what I asked for, with the full knowledge that as part of a larger franchise the thing wasn't going to leave at least as many open questions for other material to answer as this specific film answered.  For a couple hours, I felt that same sense of excitement and wonder that I'd felt way back when the original films came out, and I'm good with that.  If a small bunch of whiners can't accept that this movie is simply part of a larger franchise and by design was never going to be "complete" then that's their malfunction.

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But then, I guess some people just feel the need to ***** and whine about how the new movie wasn't as nearly "good" as their heavily rose-tinted glasses tell them the original films were.

Hey now, I take offense to being grouped in with those OT Elitists just because I wanted more than a generic action flick.

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Oh I know Poe is supposed to be the best of the Resistance, the best of like, 15 pilots, total. (I'm entirely unimpressed with the Resistance so far) Maybe if the next movie has a counterpart or two for him to show he doesn't simply vaporize any TIE that enters his field of vision I'll be able to take him a little more seriously. Because there's the Red Baron who was a brilliant aerial tactician who relied heavily on his squadmates and was far from perfect, being shot down on multiple occasions and landing damaged many more times, and Poe who one-shots everything he looks at while his squad falls apart around him. Watching him at the Starkiller fight felt a lot like Anakin in the Clone Wars series when he was leading his bombing run on the Malevolence, except no one was around to remind him that the rest of his squad isn't up to his skill level. (Note how the only pilots who come to mind at his skill level are Jedis; Luke and Anakin. At least that come to my mind.)

 

 

When referring to Poe being like the Star Wars Red Baron it was more on him being like the Myth than the Man, but he does command the fighter group fairly well. That is why how good they made him surprised me. I have seen the movie a few times and I wouldn't say he vaporizes anything that comes across his field of view, but he definitely hits what he aims at. As for the other Resistance Pilots, they are at least on par with the Rebels in the OT. I mean they went in heavily out numbered and still made strikes on different targets while dog fighting Tie Pilots. Maybe the issue is not with the Resistance, but the First Order's Pilots for being so easy to kill. 

 

As for the Resistance, I see them more like the 1st AVG, aka The Flying Tigers from WWII. 296 Kills to 14 Losses not to bad. 

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There are no new stories to tell, just variations on a theme. It is why we are seeing so many remakes and returns to the well. There are so many movies coming out and so much access to them that we are just so much aware of this fact. I really don't care if stuff gets rehashed. I do care that I am entertained and I was very entertained by TFA. I enjoyed the characters and especially the interplay between Finn and Rey. I've seen it twice and plan to see again as much as I can while it is still in theaters. That is the most telling mark for me.

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  If a small bunch of whiners can't accept that this movie is simply part of a larger franchise and by design was never going to be "complete" then that's their malfunction.

 

It was always going to be thus. Fans are insatiable; there will always be something that gets left out, which, for such people, ruins the whole experience.

 

You brought up Tom Bombadil earlier, and I think that is a great example. I VIVIDLY remember the Chicken Little-ing that polluted the forums after The Fellowship of the Ring's release: it was The Worst Movie Ever, from some corners, because of Tom's absence. Those fans had decided by OFFICIAL UNOFFICIAL COMMITTEE that TB was the glue that held everything together, and his removal spoke of the fundamental disrespect Jackson et al had for Tolkien and the franchise. Jackson, it was argued, had excised Tolkien's very soul, and accusations from base cynicism to nefarious revisionism were thrown at him.

 

I'm not seeing anything quite as vociferous here, but once a Fan has set her mind on That Most Important Thing, it's impossible to dislodge it with logic or persuasion.

 

None of which is to excuse Abrams' faults as a director (he has many) or the plot of the film (in which there are several major missing pieces of information). But, in the grand scheme of things, when the worst things we're saying is "derivative" and "missing information"...well...that's already a **** sight better than the abysmal pit of despair that was The Gungan Menace.

Edited by GreyMatter

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And how many times did Indiana Jones movies use the exact same fundamental plot structure?  No less than FOUR times.  How about the 80's Slasher movies series like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street?  You've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all.  Have you seen Ant-Man?  90% of its core plot is just a repackaging of Iron Man, just with different window dressing.

 

I think hydrospanner was being far too literal when it came to my bit about films re-using the same basic plot structure.  Maybe they're one of those folks that really do need things spelled out for them.

 

I never said that other films specifically used ANH's plot structure, which quite frankly is itself a rehash of the Akira Kurosawa film "Hidden Fortress," so even with the initial Star Wars movie Lucas wasn't exactly being "totally original," which would make him just as much of a "hack director" as people are claiming Abrams is.  Then again, Lucas proved he wasn't worth much as a director with the prequels.

 

There are plenty of adults that enjoyed TFA based solely upon its own merits (92% out of nearly 150,000 user ratings on Rotten Tomatoes and good press all around), and simply don't give two ****s about those "missing plot elements" that a very small and overly vocal part of the alleged fanbase are obsessively whining about like you'd think they were told to finish their chores instead of heading off to pick up some power converters.  Those folks paid their money to be entertained for a couple of hours, and they got their money's worth.  Which at the end of the day, is really all that Disney cares about, is making their money back on the 4 billion price tag of the Star Wars franchise and that the masses are entertained.

 

But then, I guess some people just feel the need to ***** and whine about how the new movie wasn't as nearly "good" as their heavily rose-tinted glasses tell them the original films were.

 

So you know what, screw this thread.  I went into the theater hoping for a fun Star Wars movie, and I got exactly what I asked for, with the full knowledge that as part of a larger franchise the thing wasn't going to leave at least as many open questions for other material to answer as this specific film answered.  For a couple hours, I felt that same sense of excitement and wonder that I'd felt way back when the original films came out, and I'm good with that.  If a small bunch of whiners can't accept that this movie is simply part of a larger franchise and by design was never going to be "complete" then that's their malfunction.

 

I've seen a lot of geek culture move towards intense criticism of everything, especially anything expected to be good. Some of it could be the internet, since articles saying "I liked it" don't get clickthroughs, and then you end up with lazy writers following suit to catch the wave of interest. I'm sure most of the readers on this board loved the movie as well, but there isn't much to type up for that, whereas you can go on and on about problems. 

 

When all the articles you read go "I loved the movie, but ... (five paragraphs of complaints)" it's hard to not have that rub off on a lot of people (who then start threads of their own).

Edited by Doc, the Weasel

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I think hydrospanner was being far too literal when it came to my bit about films re-using the same basic plot structure.  Maybe they're one of those folks that really do need things spelled out for them.

You can ad hominem all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that TFA is 85% ANH and 15% RotJ, and the only thing that changed were a few names, minor characters, and the specific size of the giant battle station.

 

It's not a matter of "same basic plot structure", it's a blatant re-hash of the same material, even worse than the RotJ cop out of "we need another big bad threat...ah screw it, let's just use the Death Star again."

 

Sure, you may argue that there is nothing new under the sun, but at least dress up the old story in slightly different clothing.  They didn't even bother to make Not Tatooine the slightest bit different.

 

So you know what, screw this thread.  I went into the theater hoping for a fun Star Wars movie, and I got exactly what I asked for

 

Hmm, okay, so pick up your ball and stomp back home as soon as anyone disagrees with your faux-authority?

 

I went into the theater hoping to see the new Star Wars movie, and found out that there isn't one...they just re-shot favorite parts of old ones with new actors.  Was it visually entertaining?  Sure.  But I don't feel the need to take part in the apologist circlejerk that acts like it was a great addition to the franchise just because it was so heavily anticipated.

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But I don't feel the need to take part in the apologist circlejerk that acts like it was a great addition to the franchise just because it was so heavily anticipated.

 

 

I guess all we have left is a movie that the rest of us really liked that we can enjoy now and in the future. Too bad for us not being able to see how everything sucks. Our loss I suppose.

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And how many times did Indiana Jones movies use the exact same fundamental plot structure?  No less than FOUR times.  How about the 80's Slasher movies series like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street?  You've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all.  Have you seen Ant-Man?  90% of its core plot is just a repackaging of Iron Man, just with different window dressing.

 

I think hydrospanner was being far too literal when it came to my bit about films re-using the same basic plot structure.  Maybe they're one of those folks that really do need things spelled out for them.

 

I never said that other films specifically used ANH's plot structure, which quite frankly is itself a rehash of the Akira Kurosawa film "Hidden Fortress," so even with the initial Star Wars movie Lucas wasn't exactly being "totally original," which would make him just as much of a "hack director" as people are claiming Abrams is.  Then again, Lucas proved he wasn't worth much as a director with the prequels.

 

There are plenty of adults that enjoyed TFA based solely upon its own merits (92% out of nearly 150,000 user ratings on Rotten Tomatoes and good press all around), and simply don't give two ****s about those "missing plot elements" that a very small and overly vocal part of the alleged fanbase are obsessively whining about like you'd think they were told to finish their chores instead of heading off to pick up some power converters.  Those folks paid their money to be entertained for a couple of hours, and they got their money's worth.  Which at the end of the day, is really all that Disney cares about, is making their money back on the 4 billion price tag of the Star Wars franchise and that the masses are entertained.

 

But then, I guess some people just feel the need to ***** and whine about how the new movie wasn't as nearly "good" as their heavily rose-tinted glasses tell them the original films were.

 

So you know what, screw this thread.  I went into the theater hoping for a fun Star Wars movie, and I got exactly what I asked for, with the full knowledge that as part of a larger franchise the thing wasn't going to leave at least as many open questions for other material to answer as this specific film answered.  For a couple hours, I felt that same sense of excitement and wonder that I'd felt way back when the original films came out, and I'm good with that.  If a small bunch of whiners can't accept that this movie is simply part of a larger franchise and by design was never going to be "complete" then that's their malfunction.

 

I've seen a lot of geek culture move towards intense criticism of everything, especially anything expected to be good. Some of it could be the internet, since articles saying "I liked it" don't get clickthroughs, and then you end up with lazy writers following suit to catch the wave of interest. I'm sure most of the readers on this board loved the movie as well, but there isn't much to type up for that, whereas you can go on and on about problems. 

 

When all the articles you read go "I loved the movie, but ... (five paragraphs of complaints)" it's hard to not have that rub off on a lot of people (who then start threads of their own).

 

 

 

I guess all we have left is a movie that the rest of us really liked that we can enjoy now and in the future. Too bad for us not being able to see how everything sucks. Our loss I suppose.

 

 

I've not read the reviews going around, and I really don't mean to sound like a dissatisfied SW nerd...while that may or may not be the case, I *was* very entertained by the experience of seeing it in the theater, but I would have been equally entertained by going to see a re-screening of ANH...what a viewing of TFA lacks for me in nostalgia it makes up for in two words: Rey and Finn.  There are lots of things to like about TFA, and without ANH and RotJ as part of the franchise, it'd be one of my favorites.  My complaints don't stem from my nerd wishlist at all.  While there were moments that did make my inner nerd cringe, I'm not holding that against the movie.  What I *do* hold against it is that it broke absolutely no ground within the greater narrative, and told no new story.  After the end of the Clone Wars, the galaxy just seems to settle into the routine of an authoritarian government building a moon-to-planet sized superweapon that gets blown up by insurgents every couple of years.

 

If you liked the story of this movie, that's fine.  I'm happy for you.  But it is somewhat telling when there seems to be a need to stifle anyone who attempts to criticize any aspect of the movie in any way (or, you know, failing that, to throw up your hands and leave the discussion in a huff).  As a movie, TFA was great; it's exciting, entertaining, and has compelling characters.  As a Star Wars movie, TFA was great; there's no shortage of lightsabers, blasters, ships, and aliens.  As a Star Wars movie that adds to the franchise...it just falls flat, using great new characters to tell a story that's just already been told before within the franchise...even within the already-stripped-down-to-the-movies condition.  Had they they gone the "aliens from outside the galaxy" route, many would say, "They just stole the Vong storyline!" and that may be valid, though at that point, they're using a story that's no longer part of the lore...it just feels really lazy from a story perspective when they wipe out decades of stories so that they can have a clean slate, and they still don't do anything beyond sticking very strictly to what already worked in what little material they didn't scrap.

Edited by hydrospanner

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 As a Star Wars movie that adds to the franchise...it just falls flat, using great new characters to tell a story that's just already been told before within the franchise...even within the already-stripped-down-to-the-movies condition.  Had they they gone the "aliens from outside the galaxy" route, many would say, "They just stole the Vong storyline!" and that may be valid, though at that point, they're using a story that's no longer part of the lore...it just feels really lazy from a story perspective when they wipe out decades of stories so that they can have a clean slate, and they still don't do anything beyond sticking very strictly to what already worked in what little material they didn't scrap.

 

 

Personally I think it added what the Franchise needed. It did the important part of moving the Franchise into a new Era which does add a lot to Star Wars. This is a new Era that they want to have consistency not just within the movies, but the books, comics, etc.. This new Era is not beholden to the EU and it shouldn't be.

I will be honest I would love to have gotten a Thrawn Movie Trilogy, but I am not going to be upset that I didn't. The EU was not just tossed in the garbage, it was given a place. In reality, it is the place that it always was in George's mind. From what we are seeing they are clearly intent to use the EU to help craft things moving forward, but will not let it dictate the future of Star Wars. What happened to the EU should not be held against TFA.

I don't see how anyone can say it was a Lazy Story setup for TFA. Was it a Safe Direction? Yes it was, but it wasn't Lazy. It was crafted so that Star Wars would return to where it needed to be. 

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I am thinking maybe 4, or 5 more pages, and this thread gets locked, odds anyone??

 

You're on! Gonna play the long odds and say 2 more pages.

 

 

And this time it's not my fault :D

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 As a Star Wars movie that adds to the franchise...it just falls flat, using great new characters to tell a story that's just already been told before within the franchise...even within the already-stripped-down-to-the-movies condition.  Had they they gone the "aliens from outside the galaxy" route, many would say, "They just stole the Vong storyline!" and that may be valid, though at that point, they're using a story that's no longer part of the lore...it just feels really lazy from a story perspective when they wipe out decades of stories so that they can have a clean slate, and they still don't do anything beyond sticking very strictly to what already worked in what little material they didn't scrap.

 

 

Personally I think it added what the Franchise needed. It did the important part of moving the Franchise into a new Era which does add a lot to Star Wars. This is a new Era that they want to have consistency not just within the movies, but the books, comics, etc.. This new Era is not beholden to the EU and it shouldn't be.

I will be honest I would love to have gotten a Thrawn Movie Trilogy, but I am not going to be upset that I didn't. The EU was not just tossed in the garbage, it was given a place. In reality, it is the place that it always was in George's mind. From what we are seeing they are clearly intent to use the EU to help craft things moving forward, but will not let it dictate the future of Star Wars. What happened to the EU should not be held against TFA.

I don't see how anyone can say it was a Lazy Story setup for TFA. Was it a Safe Direction? Yes it was, but it wasn't Lazy. It was crafted so that Star Wars would return to where it needed to be. 

 

I never ever said I wanted the EU in movie form.  In fact, I'm glad they didn't do that.

 

What I *will* say though is that if they were going to eliminate it, they could have at least made an effort to come up with an original idea.  Instead, they only had 6 ideas in the whole franchise that had already been done...they could have done anything else and it would have been new.  Instead they ripped off two of the already done ideas.  Ripping off an EU storyline would have been a cop out, but at least it would have been "technically original"...in this case, they're re-hashing a plot that's already been used even in their stripped down body of lore...twice.

 

Oh...and moving it into a new era has done nothing for Star Wars...clearly.  They're still using X-wings to fly down trenches and blow up huge battle stations capable of destroying planets.  The "moving into a new era" is updating the appearances and names of a few characters and some gear and redoing the same story.

Edited by hydrospanner

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I just saw the film for the second time today, and realized something awesome:

 

I was so caught up in the exploits of Rey and Finn, I completely forgot that the Heroes of Yavin would be showing up.  :D

 

Oh, and also: people are now gonna have to stop accusing Abrams of being all about the lens flares.  :P

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