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rabid1903

Integrated Astromech in Rebel Veterans

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I tried the Paul Heaver world's list with the T65 in place of the T70. It did well right up to the point that raw fire power no longer does it. It definitely needs more action economy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by action economy.  The T-65 and T-70 have exactly the same action economy and raw firepower, even if they don't have the same options for actions.   The T-70 certainly has an extra upgrade option that helps in that category (autothrusters), but that's not enough that T-70s not named Poe are doing any better than T-65s because T-70s aren't cost effective for their statline either and TLT Ys are so much better at both killing them and replacing them in lists.   

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I tried the Paul Heaver world's list with the T65 in place of the T70. It did well right up to the point that raw fire power no longer does it. It definitely needs more action economy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by action economy.  The T-65 and T-70 have exactly the same action economy and raw firepower, even if they don't have the same options for actions.   The T-70 certainly has an extra upgrade option that helps in that category (autothrusters), but that's not enough that T-70s not named Poe are doing any better than T-65s because T-70s aren't cost effective for their statline either and TLT Ys are so much better at both killing them and replacing them in lists.

On a good round you won't have to spend Poe's focus at all. None of the T65s can do that ( Luke comes close ). On a side note the T turn is awesome

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I tried the Paul Heaver world's list with the T65 in place of the T70. It did well right up to the point that raw fire power no longer does it. It definitely needs more action economy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by action economy.  The T-65 and T-70 have exactly the same action economy and raw firepower, even if they don't have the same options for actions.   The T-70 certainly has an extra upgrade option that helps in that category (autothrusters), but that's not enough that T-70s not named Poe are doing any better than T-65s because T-70s aren't cost effective for their statline either and TLT Ys are so much better at both killing them and replacing them in lists.

On a good round you won't have to spend Poe's focus at all. None of the T65s can do that ( Luke comes close ). On a side note the T turn is awesome

 

 

That's one pilot, not the T70.  I'd also argue that Luke's ability is better in terms of actual action economy since he doesn't even require a focus and could take a TL for an action or could take a focus and spend it to provide more offense than Poe's ability.  So, the difference isn't action economy, it's post maneuver movement to get into the hole of the TLT, as well as deal with other Aces.  Luke cannot have that and reliability (it's why the IA is not a fix), like Poe can with an extra shield and ATs.

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I tried the Paul Heaver world's list with the T65 in place of the T70. It did well right up to the point that raw fire power no longer does it. It definitely needs more action economy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by action economy.  The T-65 and T-70 have exactly the same action economy and raw firepower, even if they don't have the same options for actions.   The T-70 certainly has an extra upgrade option that helps in that category (autothrusters), but that's not enough that T-70s not named Poe are doing any better than T-65s because T-70s aren't cost effective for their statline either and TLT Ys are so much better at both killing them and replacing them in lists.

On a good round you won't have to spend Poe's focus at all. None of the T65s can do that ( Luke comes close ). On a side note the T turn is awesome

 

That's one pilot, not the T70.  I'd also argue that Luke's ability is better in terms of actual action economy since he doesn't even require a focus and could take a TL for an action or could take a focus and spend it to provide more offense than Poe's ability.  So, the difference isn't action economy, it's post maneuver movement to get into the hole of the TLT, as well as deal with other Aces.  Luke cannot have that and reliability (it's why the IA is not a fix), like Poe can with an extra shield and ATs.

Fair point

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Wow, a lotta salt on this thread...

A BTL-A3 Y-Wing doesn't have to be a Crew Slot. The A4 title locked the turret in the forward position. The Co-Pilot could be a dedicated gunner.

BTL-A3

Title (Y-Wing only)

When attacking, you may fire your primary weapon and your turret weapon.

Points ?

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Wow, a lotta salt on this thread...

A BTL-A3 Y-Wing doesn't have to be a Crew Slot. The A4 title locked the turret in the forward position. The Co-Pilot could be a dedicated gunner.

BTL-A3

Title (Y-Wing only)

When attacking, you may fire your primary weapon and your turret weapon.

Points ?

 

Look at the points on the Ghost version, then double it since it isn't just a single shot at the end of the turn on a large sized ship.

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Based on what Alex said in that video interview at GenCon, I'd say he thinks IA is indeed the fix it needed.  At 10:45 in the video, says the X-Wing only needed a few points boost.  Since IA is basically an extra shield, that's a 4 point boost.  Pretty good, imo.  

 

He also mentioned generic pilot E-Wings need some love.  A two E-Wing Rebel Veterans is a possibility, though this limits the potential purchase to 1.  I've bought 2 copies of each Ace expansion as well as Most Wanted, and I plan on buying two copies of Imperial Veterans, as well.  Unless they put 4 copies of whatever X-Wing fix they have in mind in a single expansion, I doubt the X-Wing will be included in Rebel Veterans.   

 

Since Imperial Veterans is basically perfect, I have every bit of confidence they will pick the right ships and do something really cool.  

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Carnor Jax has an amazing pilot ability and finds his way onto any list that includes more than one Interceptor. Juno Eclipse also has a great ability.

People bought Imperial Aces for the plastic ships. People bought the Raider for the plastic ships. Any ship-specific cards inside were a secondary concern for most, but welcome by all. (except perhaps competitive Rebel players.

 

Imperial Veterans might be purchased for the upgrades, since the majority of the contents seems to be fixes for underperforming ships.

 

It's not an either or situation.  IE, you can buy the packs for reasons you both mention.  

 

However, most people I know primarily bout the Raider for the Advanced title and upgrade cards.  Sure, they wanted the raider as well and some of the pilots, but the X1 title and ATC are what most people I know wanted and primarily used.  The same is true for Imperial Aces -- people use the title for Soontir more than any of the pilots that came in the pack and I say that as the only person in my area that might fly Jax more than Soontir.   

 

I'll add that I love collecting these ships, but if I purchase the Gozanti it will be because I've decided to make use of Agent Kallus more than anything else in the pack.  That's not to say I won't use the other stuff (otherwise I would use a secondary market) once in awhile but it won't be the primary purpose of my purchase.  

 

For me, that's more and more becoming the case with each wave.   I'm much more likely to use the upgrade cards than the pilots or the ships.   Part of that is a fact of the game getting bigger but the other reason is that first releases of ships consistently come in conservatively (with the exception of a pilot here or there) and see a later fix.  Heck, in the case of the Punisher, I knew purchasing it I wouldn't be flying it much but wanted EM and Mk2 Engines for other ships.

I can back this point up as well. I bought the Raider for the Tie Adv upgrades, new pilots, and The Emperor. Then I sold the rest of the box on eBay. I knew I'd never use the Raider, but I wanted to be able to use one of my favorite Star Wars ships effectively, and that required the cards. I also wanted The Emperor because he's The Emperor.

I'll be buying a Rebel Veterans box so that I can use ships that I already own effectively. That means top priority to me is the T-65. E-Wing would be nice too, but Corran and Etahn are both great, so I already have useful options. The Y-Wing and HWK are already very useful. So I'm totally with a Rebel Vets pack that includes a T-65 and an E-Wing.

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That Depends if they have the X-wing in that pack. But yeah out of all ships Wave 4 and prior the X-wing and E-wing are the top candidates for alternate paint model.

 

But I still want to see Scum Aces first before another veterans pack.

 

I'm hoping for a Scum Huge + fighter(s) before an Ace pack.

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Based on what we just saw with Imperial Veterans, I think the probability of adding Integrated Astro to Rebel Veterans to be very high.

To mirror Imp Vets, and assuming it's an X-E Wing fix I think we'll see something like:

PS 6 Generic Rogue Squadrons X Wings w/ EPT, priced in the 24-25 range

Corran Horn & Tycho Celchu for X Wings, priced in the 26-29 range

PS 5 Generic Wraith Squadron E Wings w/ EPT, priced in the 30-31 range

PS 4 & 7 unique pilots, one might allow X Wing only cards

Two copies of Integrated Astro

4 Titles available to X Wings and E Wings both

A new unique Astro at the 2 point mark, maybe making torpedoes more attractive

Two copies of a generic Astro for 1 point, to improve their jousting efficiency

2x A new sensor upgrade specific to E Wings, to help the generics/low PS pilots

Cool Hand

Plasma Torpedoes

Wild guessing, but I bet we end up with something along these lines.

I think this is not even far off the mark. Now idk if they bring Cool Hand and Plasma Torps necessarily. This could be a new EPT or another one.

The thing i doubt would be the 4 titles available to both ships. I rather think it will be 1-2 per ship, since they have to be careful or at least selective with the E-Wing buff. Generics need a noticeable buff. In my book they are a bit overcosted. This might change with a new systems upgrade already, and a title would add to it. However because of Corran Horn and potential other high PS pilots, they would need to limit these buffs or bar the access to them for sone E-Wings.

Corran is still to be found at the top of the meta, and should he get more than a small buff, he might be too powerful afterwards.

If titles would work for both ships this would ne fifficult to achieve. Buff the X-Wings in general, and the E-Wing generics, except the elite E-Wings? If this went too far we would have a powerful X-Wing and good E-Wing generics, but the top E-Wings would still be the only ones played ... And that would be quite sad!

Edited by ForceM

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I really can't understand why you consider the E-Wing expensive.

It starts at 27 points with astromech and system upgrade slots, sporting a dial that shows no red maneuvers and that could feature all the 1-2 ones as green by using an astromech.

It has great stats even with 2 hull points.

It features barrel roll and evade.

If you want a Flying Fortress for two bucks well, seems to me that you're asking a bit too much.

Shall we take a look at the Delta squadron pilot? Same ps, just no evade, no system, no astromech, red 1-2 hard turns, only straight greens and 1 more hull point. And it costs three points more. "But Corran is expensive!" (lol)

It's obvious that stuffing things into that ship will raise its cost. I used to play Rexler Brath for no less of 49 points, only to see it vanish from the board due to its terrible damage mitigation.

I point out to the fact that with R2D2 and evade action someone could gain up to 2 hit points every turn, at the cost of becoming rather predictable.

Now comes the Imperial Veterans expansion pack and all the Rebels start to whine already. ;)

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I really can't understand why you consider the E-Wing expensive.

It starts at 27 points with astromech and system upgrade slots, sporting a dial that shows no red maneuvers and that could feature all the 1-2 ones as green by using an astromech.

It has great stats even with 2 hull points.

It features barrel roll and evade.

If you want a Flying Fortress for two bucks well, seems to me that you're asking a bit too much.

Shall we take a look at the Delta squadron pilot? Same ps, just no evade, no system, no astromech, red 1-2 hard turns, only straight greens and 1 more hull point. And it costs three points more. "But Corran is expensive!" (lol)

It's obvious that stuffing things into that ship will raise its cost. I used to play Rexler Brath for no less of 49 points, only to see it vanish from the board due to its terrible damage mitigation.

I point out to the fact that with R2D2 and evade action someone could gain up to 2 hit points every turn, at the cost of becoming rather predictable.

Now comes the Imperial Veterans expansion pack and all the Rebels start to whine already. ;)

You don't do math very well, do you? Or... understand logical arguments, either.

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

 

Read. Educate yourself. E-Wings are at least 3 points, at most 5 points, overcosted for their statline. The Defender is actually LESS overcosted than E-Wings are. 

 

This is a very excellent Strawman fallacy, though. "If you want a Flying Fortress for two bucks well, seems to me that you're asking a bit too much." 

This is a tactic to misrepresent an opposing viewpoint as being ridiculous, to make it easier for you to disprove. I would ask that you not be spiteful against your fellow forum members for no reason. You seem to believe that only your side, the Defenders, deserve a fix, and not anyone else. 

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Considering the E-wing has a comparable dial since 4 red turns really drags the Defender down.. and while the Defender has cannon slot and 1 more hull, the E-wing has the very valuable system slot and Astromechs...

 

I think the Knave Squadron Pilot and Delta Squadron pilot should both cost 25 points.

 

Compared to the solid stats of a T-70 and the great dial of  a TIE/fo, it feels about there.

 

Mathwing isn't a foolproof metric though. When you are playing against some lists, "jousting" is the absolute last thing you want to do. Some ships pop up much higher on the "scramble value" but low on the "joust value."

 

Soontir Fel is at a 16 JV.

 

So how come so many people take Soontir instead of the 23 JV Delta Squad Pilot?

Edited by Vulf

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Considering the E-wing has a comparable dial since 4 red turns really drags the Defender down.. and while the Defender has cannon slot and 1 more hull, the E-wing has the very valuable system slot and Astromechs...

 

I think the Knave Squadron Pilot and Delta Squadron pilot should both cost 25 points.

 

Compared to the solid stats of a T-70 and the great dial of  a TIE/fo, it feels about there.

 

Mathwing isn't a foolproof metric though.

T-70 should technically be cheaper too, for it's dial and statline. baseline around... 22 points? Yeah, thats about right, considering T-65s should be about 19-20 base.

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I really can't understand why you consider the E-Wing expensive.

It starts at 27 points with astromech and system upgrade slots, sporting a dial that shows no red maneuvers and that could feature all the 1-2 ones as green by using an astromech.

It has great stats even with 2 hull points.

It features barrel roll and evade.

If you want a Flying Fortress for two bucks well, seems to me that you're asking a bit too much.

Shall we take a look at the Delta squadron pilot? Same ps, just no evade, no system, no astromech, red 1-2 hard turns, only straight greens and 1 more hull point. And it costs three points more. "But Corran is expensive!" (lol)

It's obvious that stuffing things into that ship will raise its cost. I used to play Rexler Brath for no less of 49 points, only to see it vanish from the board due to its terrible damage mitigation.

I point out to the fact that with R2D2 and evade action someone could gain up to 2 hit points every turn, at the cost of becoming rather predictable.

Now comes the Imperial Veterans expansion pack and all the Rebels start to whine already. ;)

It was generally agreed upon that the Defender was overcosted, as well as the E-Wing generics.

I have never seen any Knaves or Blackmoons in a remotely competitive squadron. To be honest i don't know if i have ever seen one fielded. Maybe in thevearly days when they came out. Before people realised it was not very good for its price.

For 27 points it is just as overcosted as the Defender was. Upgrade slots are all well and good, but you have to buy them in order to have any impact. Which only adds to the cost of a ship that can barely draw its own weight in games.

So if you heavily invest in an E-wing, you always go for Corran or at least Ethan. Because their Pilot skill and EPT slot protects your investment a lot better!

Just as Vessery was a bit less overpriced than a generic Defender, Named E-Wings are less overpriced than named ones.

Edited by ForceM

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You don't do math very well, do you? Or... understand logical arguments, either.

Uncalled for, sir. But well, I assume that you enjoy to start debating something like that.

 

Read. Educate yourself. E-Wings are at least 3 points, at most 5 points, overcosted for their statline. The Defender is actually LESS overcosted than E-Wings are. 

Absolutely disagree. We're trading action economy plus a wide array of upgrades and combinations for a white k-turn and one hull point. Plus I won't even compare again the dials, that got fixed (somehow) by an upgrade that uses up the modification slot.

I'm talking about the actual state of things, of course the Tie/D title will set things as they are ought to be.

This is a very excellent Strawman fallacy, though. "If you want a Flying Fortress for two bucks well, seems to me that you're asking a bit too much." 

This is a tactic to misrepresent an opposing viewpoint as being ridiculous, to make it easier for you to disprove. I would ask that you not be spiteful against your fellow forum members for no reason. You seem to believe that only your side, the Defenders, deserve a fix, and not anyone else.

No tactic. If you see spite or anything I'd like to point you to the first sentence of your reply to my post, thank you.

Now, to the point.

The debate is on two ships that were released together that had very different impact on the game.

One is stil played. Buffed like hell (oh look it costs 59 points now.. Let's blame it on the devs. Tsk).

The other has disappeared, except in some rare occasion.

Why? Uhm, let's see. Overpriced (30 vs 27 and let's not talk about jousting values or anything)

Narrower choice of upgrades.

Narrower choice of actions, which is, by far, the worst problem since the beginning.

And I love bombers, too. :P

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Upgrade slots are all well and good, but you have to buy them in order to have any impact. Which only adds to the cost of a ship that can barely draw its own weight in games.

I'm positive that you will agree that with astromech and system upgrade you have an extremely wider choice rather than just cannons, missiles and modifications.

On top of that E-Wing start at 27, defenders at 30.

The E-Wing is the top fighter that the rebels can fly until the appearance of the T-70 X-Wing (apparently).

Giving it a squad points reduction will only lead to see Corran buffed even more, instead of seeing other pilots (unless they come with really good pilot abilities) or generics.

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Considering the E-wing has a comparable dial since 4 red turns really drags the Defender down.. and while the Defender has cannon slot and 1 more hull, the E-wing has the very valuable system slot and Astromechs...

 

I think the Knave Squadron Pilot and Delta Squadron pilot should both cost 25 points.

 

Compared to the solid stats of a T-70 and the great dial of  a TIE/fo, it feels about there.

 

Mathwing isn't a foolproof metric though. When you are playing against some lists, "jousting" is the absolute last thing you want to do. Some ships pop up much higher on the "scramble value" but low on the "joust value."

 

Soontir Fel is at a 16 JV.

 

So how come so many people take Soontir instead of the 23 JV Delta Squad Pilot?

I don't think Red Turns hurt it that much. A red turn is better than no turn.

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Going back to the T-65, which I fully expect the Rebel Veterans pack to contain, I think we will see a similar sort of treatment as the Defender has received.

Rogue Squadron Pilot - PS6, ept, 24pts

This is almost a guaranteed card in my mind, and it makes a nice little choice between it and the Blue Squadron T-70 at the same points cost. It feels like it is costed appropriately at 1 point over the Red Veteran, which should bring it nicely in line to about where it should be.

I also expect a 0-cost title to be a fair bet, and be something that adds some action economy to the ship. I'm thinking something along the lines of gaining a free focus token somewhere, which fits thematically as a Jack-off-all-trades token on a ship that is supposed to be the final word in multi-purpose craft.

Perhaps something like:

"T-65 X-Wing"

X-Wing only, Rebel Alliance only

When this ship makes a Target Lock action, it gains a free focus token

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Upgrade slots are all well and good, but you have to buy them in order to have any impact. Which only adds to the cost of a ship that can barely draw its own weight in games.

I'm positive that you will agree that with astromech and system upgrade you have an extremely wider choice rather than just cannons, missiles and modifications.

On top of that E-Wing start at 27, defenders at 30.

The E-Wing is the top fighter that the rebels can fly until the appearance of the T-70 X-Wing (apparently).

Giving it a squad points reduction will only lead to see Corran buffed even more, instead of seeing other pilots (unless they come with really good pilot abilities) or generics.

You did absolutely not read what i was writing, did you? So i suggest you scroll up a bit and reread the first post i made. About what is needed and not for the E-Wing.

Other than that, this is plain wrong. The Defender was overpriced because of its white K. I agree that this move is not worth nearly as much as developers thought it would be. But the E-Wing is equally overcosted as the Defender.

If i had made the point costs, Knaves would have costed 25. Compare this to the fixed Advanced for one moment.

So maybe now even 24 that we have Advanceds that are similar in upgrades (except Astromechs), hitpoints, action bar and have a slightly worse dial. They either have similar firepower with ATC at 22 points or a totally free systems upgrade with discount for 21 points. They also have PS2. I believe that 2 points over a Tempest for an Astromech slot and a slightly better dial would not make the E-Wing OP in any way really.

Deltas would have costed 27. The White K is there and has an effect, and a Cannon slot and additional Hitpoint is not bad either. They got a reduction at 28 points now plus free evades if they move at speed 3+. This is pretty much in line with 3 point overall reduction if you consider the better action economy. At 29 points for 6 additional green maneuvers with Mk.II we are talking about a fine ship at the right price.

The E-Wing could get there with the right buffs, but saying it does not need any is either you not understanding the game or you are just another envious imperial bootlicker that does not want this to happen for selfish reasons.

Mark my words... It will come nonetheless. If it is the next announcment or the one after that doesn't matter, but the E-Wing generics will get something eventually! FFG knows that they overcosted both ships and they will do something to correct this.

Edited by ForceM

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I wish it were X- and Y-wing, instead.

And include a BTL-S3 title to add a crew slot.

Named Y-wing pilot Ekelarc Yong, to go with droid R5-P9.

Named X-wing pilot Grizz Frix and his droid R2-T7.

Other droid possibilities: R2-Q2 (Biggs), R2-A3 (Wedge), R2-D6 (Wedge in Y-wing), R4-G7 (Hobbie).

Davish Krail, unique Y-wing pilot from Yavin.

Puck Naeco, unique X-wing pilot from Endor.

 

Astromech and crew in one ship opens some broken combinations. When adding a crew slot, the the title should simultaneously remove the astromech slot

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