Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Newfish

Does the Combat Vest make "Quick Draw" irrelevant?

Recommended Posts

Hey everyone, RPG newbie and future GM here.  Just noticed something in the core rulebook, wondered if anyone else is a little confused.

The combat vest allows "items" held in the vest to be drawn as a Free Action during the Character's turn. (p.170)
The Quick Draw Talent allows the character to "draw and ready" a pistol or basic weapon as a Free Action.  (p.131)
The "Ready" action is "draw[ing] a weapon or retriev[ing] an object stowed in a pouch or pocket" (p.223).
 

Does this mean the Quick Draw talent is unnecessary if you have a combat vest?
I'm thinking that the combat vest will only cover the drawing of the weapon, but Quick Draw will be needed in order to flick the safety off, cock the gun, etc.  The fact that the Quick Draw talent specifies "draw AND ready," even though the Ready action is described as just drawing an item, makes me think this was the intent.  What do you guys think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm with Jack_px about this.

 

Combat vest is clearly a military equipment, where you wear gear and weapons for all to see. So yeah, this gives you a "quick draw" for items on it (its first utility), but this doesn't completely replace quick draw since this one works in any situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks guys!  Ok, so the real advantage of quick draw is that you could use the Concealed Holster with no penalty then?
I liked the idea of being able to instantly withdraw grenades, knives, syrnges, etc from your vest, but I couldn't get past the image of a nerdy bureaucrat quickdrawing his stub-gun and cocking the hammer like Clint Eastwood because he has a holster that somehow differs from the holster the gun already comes with RAW. 

Maybe it's my mindset, and I should be imagining it taking a lot longer, but not long enough to be a half action in-game.  The cocking of the gun would be overlapping with the attack action.  And if they are smart they will be running for cover anyways, and pulling it out on the way.  I hated not being able to pull out weapons will moving in D&D lol so I'm sold.

The rules confusion was more because the free draw of non weapon items did not cover the "ready" action needed to use them, and since Quickdraw specified both "draw[ing] *and* ready[ing]" I assumed the vest's Free Action to draw rule was just to distinguish it from the backpack and concealed holster's extra time to draw an item.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can put a gun in you jacket to hide it a little, with a combat vest you are clearly, for everyone, ready for combat. A combat vest isnt a item you could use subtlety

 

On the other hand, a gun hidden inside a jacket should not be eligible for a Free Action draw anyways, as it's more cumbersome to pull free. I believe the Quick Draw action refers to weapons carried normally in a holster, and thus visible anyways.

 

Perhaps the elegant solution would be to have concealed weapons take longer to ready, and Quick Draw modifying the time it takes to draw a gun fluidly rather than having it always be the same Free Action regardless of how that gun is carried or how unwieldy it is.

 

Would've worked even better with DH2's original Action Point system, but I'm sure adding or removing Half Actions would do the trick as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You can put a gun in you jacket to hide it a little, with a combat vest you are clearly, for everyone, ready for combat. A combat vest isnt a item you could use subtlety

 

On the other hand, a gun hidden inside a jacket should not be eligible for a Free Action draw anyways, as it's more cumbersome to pull free. I believe the Quick Draw action refers to weapons carried normally in a holster, and thus visible anyways.

 

Perhaps the elegant solution would be to have concealed weapons take longer to ready, and Quick Draw modifying the time it takes to draw a gun fluidly rather than having it always be the same Free Action regardless of how that gun is carried or how unwieldy it is.

 

Would've worked even better with DH2's original Action Point system, but I'm sure adding or removing Half Actions would do the trick as well.

 

 

well by raw

 

ready
Type:Half Action
Subtype:Miscellaneous
The active character draws a weapon or retrieves an object stowed in a pouch or pocket.
 
 
you could actually just have the weapon in a pocket of your jacket, meaby a guard will be able to see it if he's looking for it, but i dont think a normal person will. Just see some gangster movies, they sometimes even hide shotguns on their coat, and are able to take them out very quickly xD
 
And honestly i dont see a big difference between a pocket of a coat and a pocket of a combat vest
 
 
Edited by jack_px

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

And honestly i dont see a big difference between a pocket of a coat and a pocket of a combat vest

 

The fact that it is made to be easier to use.

 

It's like saying "look at theses pics, I don't see differences between a police officier's holster and a normal holster".

 

Well, the police officer holster has a security on it that stop people from just stealing their guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And think of how sticking a gun in a pocket works against having it easily drawn from a holster in a more ergonomic position.  

 

In a pocket, the sights can catch, it is not made with the shape of a pistol in mind, the narrow gap can mess things up, it almost definitely isn't pointed in a safe direction, etc.  That's for an outer pocket, not an inner one (which would take more finangling).  

 

On a combat vest, it'll have its own holster keeping it oriented safely, easy to reach and access, as well as everything else you may need on that vest (like extra ammunition, perhaps?).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the idea was for the Combat Vest to be used with weapons and items, whereas Quick Draw only functions for weapons. I, too, think a Combat Vest would be quite noticeable versus just having the items stored on your person.

 

Arguing about how fast you can pull a laspistol from your inner jacket pocket versus an outer one versus a holster is semantics, and doing so should first answer this question: does it make the game more fun? Because if it doesn't (and it doesn't sound like it does) then it is a moot point. 

Edited by cpteveros

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arguing about how fast you can pull a laspistol from your inner jacket pocket versus an outer one versus a holster is semantics, and doing so should first answer this question: does it make the game more fun? Because if it doesn't (and it doesn't sound like it does) then it is a moot point. 

 

It's the same direction, though, is it not? If drawing a gun from a proper holster is not any faster than drawing it from an inner pocket, why should drawing the same weapon from a Combat Vest be faster than drawing it from a holster? Indeed, a Combat Vest's gun pouch is literally the same thing: a holster strapped to your person, just that it's not on a belt but a vest. Realistically speaking, it is neither more conspicuous than a  clearly visible gun holster, nor would it allow faster drawing.

 

You might be onto something in regards to readying items, but the same problem crops up here: Why is a grenade dangling from your Combat Vest readied any faster than if you'd carry it on a belt?

 

The more I think about it, the more I believe the Combat Vest is just a bad idea overall. It's a nice flavour item for military/mercenary characters, but should not offer any effects compared to readying items carried on a belt. Instead, a rule that slaps a +1 Half Action delay penalty on items hidden inside your clothing would have actually added something to the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the reason I think (think, mind you) the combat vest gives a bonus is because it is like the MOLLE gear used by a lot of modern militaries; they're not just accessible, they're designed to be at hand AND accessed quickly.  It makes reloading go from wherever you have to pull the magazine/pack out of to the weapon that much closer and easier to do.  Going for stuff on your belt takes a little more time (not much, but seconds do count).  You put your grenades at a point where instead of reaching down, getting it out, going back up, prepping it and then throwing, you have it right at hand in an easy to grab spot for ******, prep and throw.  Having a weapon on a Combat Vest would be the same as having it in a Quick-Draw Holster, rather than your normal kind (A Quick-Draw Holster/Sling for weapons would be nice, by the by).  

 

I'd just make the Concealed Holster rules apply to anything you keep hidden in your clothes (or make clothes you can hide stuff in require the Concealed Holster built into them, perhaps storm-coats and dusters come with that as stock).  At that point it is a Half Action to draw any mundane item or weapon (Ready Action for ammunition, grenades, etc. are already Half), a Free Action to ready a weapon with Quick Draw, a Free Action to Ready an item worn on a Combat Vest, and a Full Action to Ready a concealed item (perhaps larger items too?).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going for stuff on your belt takes a little more time (not much, but seconds do count).

 

Yeah, but is the difference really bigger than the difference between pulling a gun out of a hip holster as opposed to reaching inside your jacket and pulling it out of a pocket? I kinda doubt that, yet this is what the rules suggest.

 

I like the rules you suggest, though; they are pretty much in line with what I considered in the first post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pulling a gun out of a pocket sucks, for one.  They're not designed for pockets, which makes it hard to keep secure, draw smoothly (the grip and the sights can catch) etc.  Especially with 40K weapons.  So yeah, I'd definitely say there's enough difference to give them each a different mechanical time frame.  Compared to a holster designed for it, it is much more of a pain with risks to it.  Secondly, a loaded gun in your pocket is definitely unsafe.  I'd be making people run on Deactivated Security Features penalties for it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To clarify, that was intended as a criticism against the RAW, which apparently says that pulling a gun out of a pocket is as easy as pulling it out of a holster, yet as soon as said holster is on a vest you can Quick Draw automatically. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

And honestly i dont see a big difference between a pocket of a coat and a pocket of a combat vest

 

The fact that it is made to be easier to use.

 

It's like saying "look at theses pics, I don't see differences between a police officier's holster and a normal holster".

 

Well, the police officer holster has a security on it that stop people from just stealing their guns.

 

 

of course they are different, but, different enough so that you couldnt, with proper training (aka quick draw), ready it with a free action?, that was the thing i wanted to point out. After all, thats how quick draw talent was designed, taking a gun from a pocket.

Edited by jack_px

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh, there is not a single mention of pockets when it comes to Quick Draw.  

 

The only mention regarding positioning in regards to speed of the draw is the Concealed Holster, which gives you a bonus to hiding the weapon at the cost of costing another Half Action.  Like I said, if anyone is sticking their pistol in a concealed area, I'm charging them an extra action whether or not they have the special holster.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh, there is not a single mention of pockets when it comes to Quick Draw.  

 

The only mention regarding positioning in regards to speed of the draw is the Concealed Holster, which gives you a bonus to hiding the weapon at the cost of costing another Half Action.  Like I said, if anyone is sticking their pistol in a concealed area, I'm charging them an extra action whether or not they have the special holster.

First line actually

"The active character draws a weapon or retrieves an object stowed in a pouch or pocket."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the rules are a bit inconsistent.

 

Quick draw works on pistols, basic weapons and one-handed Melee weapons.

 

Combat vest works on any item kept in the vest, which is exemplified as sidearms, grenades and ammunition up to about 15 kg.

 

Conclusions:

- The only way to quick draw grenades seems to be by owning a combat vest.

- Instant readying of ammunition does not help on reload speed.

- Hopefully you don't have a player that tries to argue that a sidearm could include basic weapons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmmmm, i think quick draw a granade from a pocket should even be easier than a gun...

 

edit: altough the rules dont state that xD, i just re-read the talent xD

Edited by jack_px

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...