Heard you like red dice bro

[Darkfine 45]

MC80 Command Cruiser, Ackbar, Home One, Engine Techs

 

AFmk2, Gunnery Teams

 

AFmk2

 

CR90a, Jaina's Light

 

CR90a

 

400

 

Home One is pretty self explanatory, accuracy and not having blank dice is good, I am of the opinion if you aren't going to take Engine Techs on the MC80 you shouldn't take an MC80.  Gunnery Team is on the AF as it is easier to set up shots on multiple things, and ultimately I can lose an AF and not be to upset about it.  You kind of have to baby the MC80 for the first couple of turns.  Squadrons are dealt with by tabling the opponent.  If you can kill all their ships their bombers don't matter.

 

 

[Truthiness 5,698]

"Tabling your opponent" is really no longer a valid option for dealing with squadrons. Boosted Comms means squadrons will actually out range you. A Rhymer ball, or God forbid the new Firespray ball (dubbed the "Fireball"), will be your nightmare. 6 Firesprays and Rhymer would be your ultimate hard counter. Go for it if it floats your fancy. You are certainly throwing out a lot of red dice, but squadrons are a thing now.

[HERO 842]

Yeah, like Truth said, your opponent can easily just speed-1 and let the Fireball walk all over you.

I would look for a min of 4 squadrons like A-Wings to do some heavy lifting.  Good thing the CR90a costs something like that

[Green Knight 9,746]

Bomber time!

[Darkfine 45]

Yeah you will lose a ship or two but not home one. There are 5 ships in the list, the rhymer ball would have to be bigger than the allowed points to cover everything. I took an ISD from full to dead in a turn with an AFmk2 left over. Rhymer balls are good but they aren't that good.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Yeah you will lose a ship or two but not home one. There are 5 ships in the list, the rhymer ball would have to be bigger than the allowed points to cover everything. I took an ISD from full to dead in a turn with an AFmk2 left over. Rhymer balls are good but they aren't that good.

The 5-6 B-Wings and 4-5 A-wings I regularly run would reduce Home One to a ball of smoldering rubble in one, maybe two rounds. You need a token fighter screen at least.

[audere1882 52]

Home one gets eaten and no more ackbar. Two essentially naked afs and vettes won't be able to hurt an ISD 2 with ecms, and if the deuce has gunnery teams you're toast.

[audere1882 52]

You need a fighter screen in wave 2. Period.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

You need a token fighter screen at least.

 

 

You need a fighter screen in wave 2. Period.

With the caveat that overwhelming levels of flak *might* be able to replace a fighter screen. One guy at my tournament the other day was running 5×Ordnance Experts Raider-I's. That's the kind of list that might get away with no fighters.

[audere1882 52]

 

You need a token fighter screen at least.

 

 

You need a fighter screen in wave 2. Period.

With the caveat that overwhelming levels of flak *might* be able to replace a fighter screen. One guy at my tournament the other day was running 5×Ordnance Experts Raider-I's. That's the kind of list that might get away with no fighters.

 

two dice anti squadron ships are certainly capable if you keep them clumped together. but then...what is shooting at ships?

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

two dice anti squadron ships are certainly capable if you keep them clumped together. but then...what is shooting at ships?

That's the strength of OE Raiders: they clear out fighters, then go ahead and kick ships' teeth in. It's definitely sort of a gimmick list, but you could run something like this:

EMPIRE FLEET (395 points)

1 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

2 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

3 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

4 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

5 • Raider I-class corvette - Admiral Ozzel - Ordnance Experts (68)

6 • Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers - Demolisher (83)

 

But anyway, in OP's list, he definitely needs a fighter screen, because he has nothing like the anti-squadron firepower he'd need to stay alive against a list with bombers.  Red dice long-range lists are generally good at attrition over the long game, less good at charging in through clouds of fighters to get a quick table.

[Purplestreak808 13]

I know alot of people dont like it, but you could potentially put Ackbar on Jainas Light. Its alot more versatile so you can get outta dodge if need be, command stack of 1 so it issues commands as needed. And with Jainas light you could use home one as a hard screen and not lose any dice to obstruction. Just dont get caught una2are with it. 

[Darkfine 45]

Just like a Rhymer ball your B-wings can't cover every part of the table.  Yes, if I run right into them then they will make short work of Home One.  Easy fix though, be speed 3.

[audere1882 52]

 

two dice anti squadron ships are certainly capable if you keep them clumped together. but then...what is shooting at ships?

That's the strength of OE Raiders: they clear out fighters, then go ahead and kick ships' teeth in. It's definitely sort of a gimmick list, but you could run something like this:

EMPIRE FLEET (395 points)

1 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

2 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

3 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

4 • Raider I-class corvette - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers (61)

5 • Raider I-class corvette - Admiral Ozzel - Ordnance Experts (68)

6 • Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer - Ordnance Experts - Expanded Launchers - Demolisher (83)

 

But anyway, in OP's list, he definitely needs a fighter screen, because he has nothing like the anti-squadron firepower he'd need to stay alive against a list with bombers.  Red dice long-range lists are generally good at attrition over the long game, less good at charging in through clouds of fighters to get a quick table.

 

uh, i'd love to see this list when i run two ISDs with gunnery teams and a raider. the ISDs can one shot potentially 2 raiders EACH  every activation.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

uh, i'd love to see this list when i run two ISDs with gunnery teams and a raider. the ISDs can one shot potentially 2 raiders EACH  every activation.

Grats? Not sure why you're hung up on this random dude's list I mentioned in passing. Just let it go...

[audere1882 52]

uh, i'd love to see this list when i run two ISDs with gunnery teams and a raider. the ISDs can one shot potentially 2 raiders EACH  every activation.

Grats? Not sure why you're hung up on this random dude's list I mentioned in passing. Just let it go...

Who is hung up? I wanted to point out that the list doesn't seem functional at all. I thought we were discussing the viability of using only ships for anti-squadrons? If you run just small based ships, especially in the packs that you would need to actually kill squadrons fast enough to be effective (I.e. faster than 2-3 turns), you are going to get walloped by large ships.

That's the problem that is posed with wave two- squadrons are extremely viable and a threat. Sure, a couple ships with two anti-squadron dice will be able to make dents into squadrons, but they need support from other squadrons. Otherwise, you're either passing up double-arching ships (which the small based ships are great at getting) or your passing up shots at ships entirely in order to try to wittle down squads (only shooting one ship if you have gunnery, or none at all if you don't).

Thought we were on a "discussion" board to...discuss things?

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Just like a Rhymer ball your B-wings can't cover every part of the table.

It's true, they can't. They can, however, be exactly where you need to be. Especially if your game plan is "charge in and table him."

Yes, if I run right into them then they will make short work of Home One.  Easy fix though, be speed 3.

Good luck getting Home One to speed 3. Engine Techs + speed 2 is not the same thing as speed 3 when it comes to avoiding fighters. There was good thread a few weeks back about how easy it is to place a pile of fighters exactly where Home One can't avoid stomping on them.

What's that? Home One is hanging back to avoid fire? Marvelous, I'm up against two nearly-naked AF2's and two naked CR90's. Home One might go down in one round to those squadrons, but a CR90 or AF2 is virtually guaranteed to. Even a CR90 can be caught by well-placed B-Wings--I do it regularly in my games. Wrote a battle report a couple weeks ago, in fact, in which I did just that.

But hey, maybe you don't have anybody in your local area who knows how to play fighters. Our just nobody who takes them there. If so, by all means, run naked--but you should do so knowing there are hard counters out there, and have a better plan for dealing with them than "hope he doesn't know how to use B-Wings or Rhymer."

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

...

My apologies for my tone. I'm in kind of a grouchy mood, not sure why... Time for a break from the internet, I think.

[Darkfine 45]

 

Just like a Rhymer ball your B-wings can't cover every part of the table.

It's true, they can't. They can, however, be exactly where you need to be. Especially if your game plan is "charge in and table him."

Yes, if I run right into them then they will make short work of Home One.  Easy fix though, be speed 3.

Good luck getting Home One to speed 3. Engine Techs + speed 2 is not the same thing as speed 3 when it comes to avoiding fighters. There was good thread a few weeks back about how easy it is to place a pile of fighters exactly where Home One can't avoid stomping on them.

What's that? Home One is hanging back to avoid fire? Marvelous, I'm up against two nearly-naked AF2's and two naked CR90's. Home One might go down in one round to those squadrons, but a CR90 or AF2 is virtually guaranteed to. Even a CR90 can be caught by well-placed B-Wings--I do it regularly in my games. Wrote a battle report a couple weeks ago, in fact, in which I did just that.

But hey, maybe you don't have anybody in your local area who knows how to play fighters. Our just nobody who takes them there. If so, by all means, run naked--but you should do so knowing there are hard counters out there, and have a better plan for dealing with them than "hope he doesn't know how to use B-Wings or Rhymer."

 

So, are you intentionally trying to call the people I play with morons or are you just hinting at it?  You nits seriously need to put your e-peens away and get off your high horses.  I use a plural there as you aren't the only one.

 

Anything can win.  No one is good at this game yet, and certainly not someone who would dismiss something that is obviously a threat.  Sure, you pounce all your B-Wings on my MC80 and you are right, now you are only dealing with two naked CR90s and two naked AFMK2s while you go after the flagship (which you aren't killing in one turn).

 

Cept those four naked ships are still tossing 16 dice at long range and 20 at medium.  

 

Ultimately theorycrafting doesn't work over the internet.  You have no idea how well, or poorly, I play the game.  You, apparently, have no idea how to deploy to mitigate squadron effectiveness.  Also, and more importantly, your "I'm right and you are wrong" mentality makes you about as useful to a discussion about the hypothetical as a very moronic rock.  

 

Please everyone note, I am calling the rock a moron, not the poster.  I'm irritated at the rock for being irrationally hostile.  He keeps glaring at me

Edited December 14, 2015 by Darkfine

[Truthiness 5,698]

Just like a Rhymer ball your B-wings can't cover every part of the table.  Yes, if I run right into them then they will make short work of Home One.  Easy fix though, be speed 3.

You're not outrunning squadrons at speed 3. Boosted Comms will ensure that. This is speaking from experience. That Rhymer ball, Fireball, or Independence B-Wings will find you and eat you. I've done it more than once. We're not trying to attack you. We're just trying to help. Squadrons got the tools they needed to be very dangerous in this wave. If you don't believe me, go ask Green Knight what I did to him yesterday.

[Darkfine 45]

I'm not being defensive.  I could certainly see how it would come off that way.  I am merely trying to suggest that with proper fleet deployment (you are 100% going to have more activations than any serious carrier list) and proper planning you won't be able to out run or deal with bomber wings, but you will be able to mitigate the damage they do.  At least long enough to get your work done.  Cause B-wings and Rhymer are fantastic, until they don't have someone telling them what to do.

 

So lets take the last game I played with this list.  It was Contested Outpost vs.  an ISD carrier with 3x supporting raiders and the usual squadron suspects.  His Raiders and my CR90s traded some fire in turn two, his squadrons put a serious hurt on one AFMK2 as I was skirting the edges of the ISD's engagement zone with Home One, playing the smaller ships more aggressively in an attempt to bait him into trying to take them out quick'y so my untouched Home One could go box his big dude..  Turn 3 sees one Raider die and his ISD go from fine to 2 hull left.  At this point I was down a CR90 and the AFmk2 from earlier was on its last legs.  He had two ships left, one being his flag ship on 2 hull sitting in the broadside of Home One.  Turn 4 begins with my activation looking at the same 2 hull ISD down with a Home One broadside.  

 

The only thing he could have done differently in that particular game would have been to try and jump his squadrons in a turn earlier.  Which would have meant speed 3'ing his ISD into the middle of the board.  Which would have been a turn sooner that the dice bucket rain parade would have started.  Though I will admit in that game Jaina's Light opened with a gentlemanly 6 damage throw against one of his raiders.  

 

But still, bombers need turns to do their work.  Even B-wings.  Even B-Wings with double activations.  

[mikemcmann 359]

The point they're making is that with reasonable skill, 3x b wings will throw 3 black and blue every turn at a shield they choose. That's 4.5ish damage each turn and three separate tokens used to defend (then the carrier fires) .This while a corvette that costs more and relies on ackbar and is less maneuverable and less survivable throws 3.5ish in a more restricted way. Also, 5 hull versus 15 hull.....

Not saying no squads is auto lose...just not as threatening without some squads.

[Madaghmire 7,277]

I agree this list is going to have a significantly more difficult time of it against bomber heavy lists.

I also agree with the OP's assertion that if he completely outflies his opponent, it wont matter. I know you never came out and said that, but when you make assertions about using deployment and manuevers to mitigate squadrons effectiveness, you are basically saying you think you can fly this list well enough to cover its "on paper" shortcomings. Which, IMO, is fine. If you got skills like that, by all means, list around them.

But, as people have already stated, what currently pases for conventional wisdom around here suggests you are going to have issues with fighters. You are manueverable enough though, on four of your five ships, that you should be able to make it difficult on a bomber force. Home one though...if any reasonable amount bombers get there, its going down. Its just a question of board state when it happens.