Wampa ability

[Parravon 5,217]

If Wampa's ability happens in the Compare Results step, who cancels first? If the defender can cancel the crit, Wampa doesn't get anything. If you go on initiative and Wampa doesn't have it, his ability could be rendered completely useless.

It's for this reason I am more compelled to believe it should happen in the Modify steps.

I really don't see him as a token sink. No one is likely to use any tokens when facing him unless they can actually cancel the Wampa crit before Wampa.

[MartiniHanks 19]

The defender doesn't even need to spend tokens for there to be significant benefit to Wampa if he gets to see the defense dice in advance.

 

Example 1:

• Wampa hits twice with at least 1 crit
• Defender rolls all blanks

 

Example 2:

• Wampa hits with a crit
• Defender rolls all blanks

 

In Both examples, Wampa would prefer to see the defender's rolls before making the decision. 2 damage > 1 damage. Crits are better than just damage. Yes, dealing a card is also better than causing damage, which just adds to Wampas utility.

 

 

I don't think this question will get answered without FFG, and it does seem to have a non-trivial likelihood of affecting the outcome of many Wampa combats.

 

With that in mind, IMO the only acceptable answer has to be that "All Dice" means the cancel is after Defense Dice are rolled. There are just too many cards that use qualifiers to assume that "All Dice" actually just means "Attacker Dice"

Edited December 24, 2015 by MartiniHanks

[Sierra19 52]

I was under the impression, you trigger Wampa's ability when the crit comes up. If you roll a hit and a crit, and cancel all dice results, you deal one face down damage card to the defender. I don't think you would get to see a defense roll, THEN decide what you are going to do. You either declare the ability, or take your chances with the defense roll. I can't really think of a time where you WOULDN'T want to use the ability.

[Sierra19 52]

The wording on the card is probably to make the ability effects clear. Say Wampa is at range 1, so I roll 3 attack dice, and I get 2 hits and a crit. If the ability wasn't worded the way it was, I could say " ok, I'm cancelling the crit, so you take one damage, now roll defense against my 2 remaining hits." The ability as written specifically won't allow that, because I have to cancel ALL dice, and deal one face down damage card.

[Parravon 5,217]

I was under the impression, you trigger Wampa's ability when the crit comes up. If you roll a hit and a crit, and cancel all dice results, you deal one face down damage card to the defender. I don't think you would get to see a defense roll, THEN decide what you are going to do. You either declare the ability, or take your chances with the defense roll. I can't really think of a time where you WOULDN'T want to use the ability.

I think this is probably the intention and it would not surprise me to see this one get some form of card errata in an upcoming FAQ. There are some that are convinced it can only happen during the Compare Results step as it's a cancellation and not a modification. The same argument arose when Accuracy Corrector came out with some pretty flimsy reasoning to back it up at the time. With that one, adding results was clearly a modification, and the last line of the card saying your dice couldn't be modified again, pretty much confirmed it for me as taking place during the Modify Attack Dice step.

 

I think if you decide to wait until after the defender rolls, you could be shooting yourself in the foot and miss your chance if he rolls enough evades. As soon as the defence dice are rolled, Wampa needs some way of getting rid of any evades in the Modify Defence dice step, or he's screwed. I don't think you can trigger his ability at the start of the Compare Results step if the defender has enough evades. As I said above, if Wampa doesn't have initiative, he's going to be screwed. Wampa says "you" need to cancel the dice results, so if the defender does it, the ability won't trigger. It just seems to me to be a "Modify Attack Dice step ability" to me. That's the most logical place I see to use it.

 

And at the end of the day, you kill enemy ships by dealing damage cards to them, so any chance to deal a card that ignores any shields, is always a good thing.

[Shrapnelbait 19]

Given that Crackshot 'cancels' a dice at the start of the Compare Dice step, I would think that this instance of 'cancelling' would be the same.

 

If you had Palpatine out, I don't think there is any way to get rid of Wampa's crit, because Palp will modify (give) the crit after the defender gets rid of any crit that may be rolled. Same would go for pairing up with Youngster, if he had the Calculation ability. Even if you did say that this instance of cancelling happened during the Modify step, you can still chose what order to modify in: Palp, then cancel.

[Parravon 5,217]

Given that Crackshot 'cancels' a dice at the start of the Compare Dice step, I would think that this instance of 'cancelling' would be the same.

 

If you had Palpatine out, I don't think there is any way to get rid of Wampa's crit, because Palp will modify (give) the crit after the defender gets rid of any crit that may be rolled. Same would go for pairing up with Youngster, if he had the Calculation ability. Even if you did say that this instance of cancelling happened during the Modify step, you can still chose what order to modify in: Palp, then cancel.

Crack Shot has been FAQ'd to work at the start of the Compare Results step, but Accuracy Corrector (which originally had similar wording) was FAQ'd to work during the Modify Attack Dice step, so this 'instance' is not the same. It could still be either way, depending on whether or not FFG decides to clarify it.

 

Wampa doing his thing during the modification step would indeed allow Palp to be able to do something, but if you leave Wampa until the Compare Results step and the defender has rolled enough evades, even the Emperor isn't going to be able to help. And Youngster with Calculation will do nothing at all for any pilot, other than Youngster himself. His ability relies on his upgrade card being an Action: card and Calculation isn't.

[Shrapnelbait 19]

 

Given that Crackshot 'cancels' a dice at the start of the Compare Dice step, I would think that this instance of 'cancelling' would be the same.

 

If you had Palpatine out, I don't think there is any way to get rid of Wampa's crit, because Palp will modify (give) the crit after the defender gets rid of any crit that may be rolled. Same would go for pairing up with Youngster, if he had the Calculation ability. Even if you did say that this instance of cancelling happened during the Modify step, you can still chose what order to modify in: Palp, then cancel.

Crack Shot has been FAQ'd to work at the start of the Compare Results step, but Accuracy Corrector (which originally had similar wording) was FAQ'd to work during the Modify Attack Dice step, so this 'instance' is not the same. It could still be either way, depending on whether or not FFG decides to clarify it.

 

Wampa doing his thing during the modification step would indeed allow Palp to be able to do something, but if you leave Wampa until the Compare Results step and the defender has rolled enough evades, even the Emperor isn't going to be able to help. And Youngster with Calculation will do nothing at all for any pilot, other than Youngster himself. His ability relies on his upgrade card being an Action: card and Calculation isn't.

 

Ah, I see where your going now. Between Accuracy Corrector and Crackshot you have two instances of cancelling that happen at different times. Lame.

[StephenEsven 632]

Back when AC was first released, we had the old rulebook that clearly stated that abilities that alowed users to cancel dice results would happen at the start of the 6. Compare Results step.

So the card was errataed because it was a cancellation followed by a dice moification, and the developers had intended for this to happen in step 3. Modify Attack Dice.

Now we have the new Rules Reference where dice canellation no longer has a defined timing. And I believe we had an email answer from Frank stating that future cards would have a clear timint.

Enter Crackshot. No timing specified. Later errataed to happen in step 6. Compare Results. This card has no dice modifications, only cancellations.

And then we get Wampa. I bet he will be errataed with a timing in the text. But so far he is closer to Crackshot than AC in wording. Which is why I believe he happens at the beginning of step 6. Compare Results.

 

Now, if I am right, Wampa happens at the start of the stem, which is before you actually cancel dice results from your rolls, so even if Wampa rolls a single Crit and the defender Rolls enough Evade results for Wampa not to Hit the defender, he can still use his ability, and deal a facedown damage card.

[Sierra19 52]

It wouldn't matter in any case as the card states "When attacking, you may cancel ALL dice results. If you cancel a crit result, deal 1 facedown Damage card to the defender". There is no mention of "if the attack hits", like ion cannon turret. If you get a crit, cancel ALL dice results and deal 1 facedown damage card. Pretty clear cut to me, as the ability doesn't rely on an attack hitting, so defense dice will not prevent the ability. There would be very few situations where you wouldn't use the ability almost instantly.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Sierra19

[StephenEsven 632]

So if you roll tipple crit against a 3 defence dice ship you would use it before knowing the defence roll?

I think it matters a lot what the defender rolls and more so what tokens he might use to bolster his defence before I decide if I use Wampas ability. So the timing matters greatly.

[Sierra19 52]

Good point. I use Wampa with Youngster equipped with Marksmanship. Wampa rolls, changes attack dice, then cancels the crit, and deals damage. My thinking as to why you don't get to choose after the defender rolls their dice, is that the ability isn't dependent on whether the attack hits or not. Allowing you to see if you would make out better by not cancelling until AFTER the defender rolls, would be a bit OP. Most abilities that I've seen have you make a decision BEFORE you decide to execute said ability or action, unless stated otherwise. I could be wrong though, as I'm still new to the game.

[kopmcginty 609]

Did any resolution come up for this?

I'm considering Wampa for store tourny this weekend.

Is my best course simply to get a TO/judge decision before starting g and I form each opponent before game start of each round?

Edit... Personal interpretation. Happens after green dice in the compare results stage. Meanie g if I can do better than push 1 damage to hull without triggering the ability I can.

If I do trigger the ability, even if I cancel 2 crits, its still just 1 card.

Edited February 4, 2016 by kopmcginty

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Did any resolution come up for this?

There's no official resolution, no.

Is my best course simply to get a TO/judge decision before starting...

Probably, yes.

Edit... Personal interpretation. Happens after green dice in the compare results stage. Meanie g if I can do better than push 1 damage to hull without triggering the ability I can.

If I do trigger the ability, even if I cancel 2 crits, its still just 1 card.

The second part is fairly obvious--to me, at least. That language could have been clearer, but reading "If you cancel a [crit] result..." as "For each [crit] result you cancel..." is a real stretch.

The first part is genuinely an issue, although I doubt it will come into play often. Cancellation isn't a dice modification, so it doesn't have to happen at that time. Clearly you can't cancel dice that don't exist yet, so it can't happen until all dice have been rolled--meaning it can't happen any sooner than the start of the Modify Defense Dice step. And it would be a very, very weak ability if it happened after the start of the Compare Results step.

So to me, the only real question is whether it falls immediately before or immediately after the Modify Defense Dice step. And since it doesn't involve dice modification at all, it makes the most sense to put it at the start of the Compare Results step.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Did any resolution come up for this?

There's no official resolution, no.

 

 

There was an email from Frank that clarified the timing. That's not as official as being the FAQ but it's as good as we are going to get until a new FAQ is put out.

 

 

 

Just got this in my email:

Hello Jacob,

In response to your rules question:

Rules Question:

When in the Attack sequence does Wampa's pilot ability happen? I've been assuming it's during the Compare Results step, because we used to have a rule saying that that was the step where Cancel Results effects happen, but the current Rules Reference doesn't say that any more. So, does Wampa trigger during Compare Results, or during Attacker Modifies Attack Dice? Is there a general rule about the timing of Cancel Die Results abilities when not otherwise specified? Thanks, both in advance and for previous questions!

“Wampa's” ability happens at the start of the "Compare Results” step.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

 

 

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

There was an email from Frank that clarified the timing. That's not as official as being the FAQ but it's as good as we are going to get until a new FAQ is put out.

Ah, I completely missed that. Thanks!

(I'm also glad to see Frank agrees with me. )

[kopmcginty 609]

Makes sense to me, see what's said on Sunday.

[Kalandros 401]

The odd thing about Wampa is that even though he lands a face down card through his ability.. if the target still has a Stealth Device, it doesn't lose it, because the attack didn't hit..

Edited February 5, 2016 by Kalandros

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

The odd thing about Wampa is that even though he lands a face up card through his ability..

 

Wampa's ability doesn't deal a face up card, it's a face down card.

 

You're correct though, it is not a hit so the SD stays.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Forgottenlore

[WWHSD 9,273]

The odd thing about Wampa is that even though he lands a face up card through his ability.. if the target still has a Stealth Device, it doesn't lose it, because the attack didn't hit..

If Wampa uses his ability to get a hit on Laetin, Laetin will get an Evade token because the attack didn't hit.

[Kalandros 401]

 

The odd thing about Wampa is that even though he lands a face up card through his ability..

 

Wampa's ability doesn't deal a face up card, it's a face down card.

 

You're correct though, it is not a hit so the SD stays.

 

 

My bad, and edited.