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vyrago

Villains of the Aturi Cluster?

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In my testing in the Hunters campain, The Select Target step runs into a bit of tunnel vision.

 

The only way for a rebel AI to change targets is to have his current target in range, in arc, spend the TL to reroll a miss, and when his turn begins have a different  player closer AND in arc.

 

This can result in situations where the Xwing is trying to chase an Intercepter that's across the board, while the intercepter's friends are attacking it. at short range.

 

hummm, I see why that can happen. Maybe change action to TL if you have ordance and spend unused at the end of turn?  Free TL is still too much IMO on the X-wing.  With the Y-wing and A-wing only being primary 2, it's not as bad.

 

The idea behind TL before movement on the original Tie bomber AI was that munitions out of nowhere could be lethal to rebels- the TL before movement gave rebel plaers more chances to arcdodge.

 

I think the best option to to change the Attack selection to only fire Torpedos or Missiles at Strike AI targets, (aswell as movig TL to action step) so Rebels blend smoothly from Strike to Furball to flee AI as they take damage.

 

Something like:

-Select Maneuver Target-

1) If at full shields, use Strike Target as Maneuver target

2) Nearest Enemy in arc

3) Nearest Enemy

 

-Roll for maneuver-

 

-Action Selection-

1) Remove stress or resolve crit

2) if Strike Target is in arc, TL Strike Target

3) If no enemy has a shot on this ship, TL maneuver target

4) Focus

 

-Attack Target-

*) If shields are down and hull =<  (x), roll for hyperspace

1) Enemy you have TL on. Use Torpedos/missiles if possible

2) Nearest Enemy

 

Modded the existing AI with the new procedure:

 

LeCVvKW.png

 

Will need to work a bit longer to get Awing and Bwing working with their extra actions.

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Lazy. I am defintly all for this idea. I myself suggested being able to field a support squadron that you can upgrade in the same way you would upgrade a pilot. You could control them if they are in a certain range (maybe 1 & 2) but once they go a certain distance from you the AI takes over. This is something i will look at implimenting my own campaign.

Love the pilot abilities. The empire is going to have some crazy fun combinations :P

I had another idea about the mission deck. I would love to add some missions in that were not specifically following an arc but just as attacks on your patrols. Maybe they reward you with some reward modifiers for your next mission. Just some kind of random event to represent little hit and run attacks.

Finally. Id love to take a slightly different approach with the Pilot cards. With the rebel pilot cards i would love to acctually give them names so you can have arch enemies or specific rebel pilots that escape you once and you can come up against them in future. Unlike the empire, the rebels have personality and are individuals. Id love that to come across as you fight them. Maybe there is space on the pilot card to record how many of your fellow pilots they have killed.

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Lazy. I am defintly all for this idea. I myself suggested being able to field a support squadron that you can upgrade in the same way you would upgrade a pilot. You could control them if they are in a certain range (maybe 1 & 2) but once they go a certain distance from you the AI takes over. This is something i will look at implimenting my own campaign.

Love the pilot abilities. The empire is going to have some crazy fun combinations :P

I had another idea about the mission deck. I would love to add some missions in that were not specifically following an arc but just as attacks on your patrols. Maybe they reward you with some reward modifiers for your next mission. Just some kind of random event to represent little hit and run attacks.

Finally. Id love to take a slightly different approach with the Pilot cards. With the rebel pilot cards i would love to acctually give them names so you can have arch enemies or specific rebel pilots that escape you once and you can come up against them in future. Unlike the empire, the rebels have personality and are individuals. Id love that to come across as you fight them. Maybe there is space on the pilot card to record how many of your fellow pilots they have killed.

I like the idea of making the elite rebels named. There also should be a fairly thick stack of them- certiantly more than the 4-6 the rebel campain had per ship, and the first elite I tested I wasnt particularly fond of. (Tarn with R5k7 makes no sence, and dutch at higher levels is going to be difficult to activate with the new AI TL guidelines)

 

I'll have to start putting together some GOOD rebel heros in my free time.

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Agreed. My thought was if we have lots of variations of them once we "kill" one we can remove them from the deck permanently rather than recycling them. Definitely makes the rebels feel different as enemies. On top of that we dont need to worry about running out of elite pilots to face.

Came up with a few of my own but wanna test them a bit more before throwing up here :P

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So my two cents on this, cause I am really interested in running an Imperial campaign. 

 

1) The guy running the HotAC at my FLGS has decided to make in game requirements to unlock the more powerful ships like the K-Wing. Basically you have to fly and survive 3 mission in a y-wing and 2 mission in a B-wing to unlock the K-Wing. Could you do something like this with the Defenders and other "over powered" Tie ships?

 

2) This could be done a later time, but I think it would be funny if there was a chance a PC character from HotAC comes in as an Ace. That way it gives a feeling that the two campaigns are somewhat tied together. 

 

3) Is there a collection of everything, like a zip file or something, so I can look at everything without having to dig through the entire forum (which I already have).

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Find some Star Wars name generators, there are a few online. As well as sampe names for different races on various sites. Several RPG books of almost all the editions had good name generators too, using Star Wars fluff names and mixing them together with various first and last names in the galaxy.

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Lazy. I am defintly all for this idea. I myself suggested being able to field a support squadron that you can upgrade in the same way you would upgrade a pilot. You could control them if they are in a certain range (maybe 1 & 2) but once they go a certain distance from you the AI takes over. This is something i will look at implimenting my own campaign.

Love the pilot abilities. The empire is going to have some crazy fun combinations :P

I had another idea about the mission deck. I would love to add some missions in that were not specifically following an arc but just as attacks on your patrols. Maybe they reward you with some reward modifiers for your next mission. Just some kind of random event to represent little hit and run attacks.

Finally. Id love to take a slightly different approach with the Pilot cards. With the rebel pilot cards i would love to acctually give them names so you can have arch enemies or specific rebel pilots that escape you once and you can come up against them in future. Unlike the empire, the rebels have personality and are individuals. Id love that to come across as you fight them. Maybe there is space on the pilot card to record how many of your fellow pilots they have killed.

I like the idea of making the elite rebels named. There also should be a fairly thick stack of them- certiantly more than the 4-6 the rebel campain had per ship, and the first elite I tested I wasnt particularly fond of. (Tarn with R5k7 makes no sence, and dutch at higher levels is going to be difficult to activate with the new AI TL guidelines)

 

I'll have to start putting together some GOOD rebel heros in my free time.

 

If you want to make more, feel free, it is not as easy as it looks to make workable combos.  I made what is out for now because they worked without repeating the same things or making useless combos.

 

@Rakaydos:  I feel the changes to the AI are making them much more complicated then they need to be. I had gone off of HotAC as they were simple and worked, only adding a change to flee when X amount of damage was done.  By your AI card mod, what do they do if they have lost 1 shield.  They are no longer "at full shields" as instructed, but not at hyperspace damage.  I also feel they would not try to jump in the middle of a dogfight,  They would try to break off and run.  flee AI table edge represents hyper.

 

And it seems they never get to focus if they have a shot?  So focuse is defense only?

Edited by Salted Diamond

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@Rakaydos:  I feel the changes to the AI are making them much more complicated then they need to be. I had gone off of HotAC as they were simple and worked, only adding a change to flee when X amount of damage was done.  By your AI card mod, what do they do if they have lost 1 shield.  They are no longer "at full shields" as instructed, but not at hyperspace damage.  I also feel they would not try to jump in the middle of a dogfight,  They would try to break off and run.  flee AI table edge represents hyper.

 

And it seems they never get to focus if they have a shot?  So focuse is defense only?

 

I'm adding a concept that isnt there for heros, because it simply didnt apply.

 

Almost every mission (at least in the Hunters campain) will have some kind of transport or hanger that hyperdriveless ties launch and are recovered at. If it dies, thearea becomes hostile territory and there are no escape edges (and sometimes the mission fails, too), meaning if your ship lacks a hyperdrive, after turn 10 you have to roll good to avoid life support failure before a rescue ship arrives. It is marked in the mission as the Strike Target for rebels.

 

While a rebel is at full HP, it ignores the ties and goes for a bombing run. you need to force as many to break off as possible to keep your base alive. once it's taken a little damage, it shifts to furball AI. It actually stays in furbal AI after taking hyperspace damage (that cheating computer again) but rolls for hyperspace on it's turn in the combat phase... then if it fails, takes a shot anyway.

 

For actions the priority is as follows:

Stress/crit

Lock on the Imperial base/transport to drop a torpedo (even it it's currently in furbal AI, killing the base takes priority)

If the ship is in ANY fire arcs, focus

TL

If all enemies are out of TL range, focus.

 

It may be more complicated, but it's also smarter, I think. I hope to test it out thursday.

 

Do my explanation help? perhaps I can make it clearer in the rules, but the AI card is kinda tight on space.

Edited by Rakaydos

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XPiQ9tB.png

 

Just spotted a copy/paste error... Ywing/Bwing hyper at 3 hull, Xwing at 2, Awing at 1

 

With the rarer target lock, it makes more sence to prioritize the target you have bonuses against. A FCS Bwing, then, will be extremely tenacius, albet slow

 

The A and Bwing prioritize arcdodging over getting shots, unlike their imperial counterparts. I'll have to see how it plays out.

 

Also note the targeting priority is no longer "Closest in arc/closest". Rebels cant corner on a dime like the imperials can, so they target a bit farther out- "Closest in arc/Furthest within range 3/Closest"

Edited by Rakaydos

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One would think it would be easier to make 2 Xwing AIs and 2 Ywing AI's. and then one A-wing, and one B-wing.

The a-wing would be interception....always Furball oriented.

The B-wing would be mostly Strike oriented towards targets, and then to players if it takes damage or whatever (much like you have already with the complicated AI, but maybe a way to make it simpler somehow)

The Xwings - say Blue and Red squads to easily differentiate: having diffferent droids- the Red Squadron ones would have the AI set to attacking the players fro mthe get go. Blue would be the more complicated attack a target first and then go after the players

Same with ywings...say Gold and Grey Squads.

Each of the two different groups of X and Y wings could even have a different droid or something to further differentiate. Same with different torps to begin with and different turrets..if we want to go that deep in changes.

I think we can easily come up with a good way to represent how the fighters of the Rebels would be tasked with different orders and equipped differently based on those orders,as opposed to TIE/LNs that have usually one mission, dogfight, since they are crap doing much anything else.

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One would think it would be easier to make 2 Xwing AIs and 2 Ywing AI's. and then one A-wing, and one B-wing.

The a-wing would be interception....always Furball oriented.

The B-wing would be mostly Strike oriented towards targets, and then to players if it takes damage or whatever (much like you have already with the complicated AI, but maybe a way to make it simpler somehow)

The Xwings - say Blue and Red squads to easily differentiate: having diffferent droids- the Red Squadron ones would have the AI set to attacking the players fro mthe get go. Blue would be the more complicated attack a target first and then go after the players

Same with ywings...say Gold and Grey Squads.

Each of the two different groups of X and Y wings could even have a different droid or something to further differentiate. Same with different torps to begin with and different turrets..if we want to go that deep in changes.

I think we can easily come up with a good way to represent how the fighters of the Rebels would be tasked with different orders and equipped differently based on those orders,as opposed to TIE/LNs that have usually one mission, dogfight, since they are crap doing much anything else.

I dont think it's necessary, but I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with in that regard.

 

Editing it is fairly simple, even in Microsoft Paint.

To erase text, grab a box of backround, and stretch over the text

To write new text, Ariel Blck, Bold, Size 5 font, transparent box. Leave extra room in the box around the edges of your text, and copy your text before locking it in- it has an unfortunate tendancy to expand and mess with your margins after you're done.

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Personal opinion for an easier solution would be just always have Y-wing and B-wing as strike AI.  X-wings and A-wing would be more concerned with flying cover then killing the "mothership".  Think Yavin, Y-wing were primary bombers with X-wing flying cover.  If the bombers go down, then X-wing switch or more likely would break-off and flee.  Specififc mission can simply give special AI rules to change if desired/needed.  You have 5 steps just to select a target for each ship, then 7 for actions on the B-wing.  I would be worried about things getting overly complicated as squads break formation and keeping track of who is doing what when.  Flee AI could be moddified to your action is to try and hyper jump (or table edge if mission calls for it).  Simple fix that does not need to clutter up the AI cards and covers everything.

Edited by Salted Diamond

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My thoughts on various ships:

 

AI Xwing- Assault fighter, capable of doing a number on a mission target, handle itself in a dogfight, and bug out before reinforcements arrive. As a multirole vehical, it should be more flexible than any imperial equivilant.

 

AI Ywing- Arc focused but with a turret. Should be Ion turret standard, barring aces. Rebel primary bomber. (Perhaps Ywing maneuver AI that includes maneuver bomb icons?)

 

AI Bwing- Heavy assault fighter, slower and less evasive than the Xwing but significantly better armed. If it cant get to the target befre being killed, it should at least try to draw off pursuiers from it's allies.

 

AI Awing- the rebel space superiority fighter, the only mainline rebel that doesnt strike the objective first. Classically, the Awing's role in Tie fighter was to distract you so you failed the objectives- by the same token, these awings should focus on being a survivable nusance over combat effectiveness. Assault missiles?

 

AI HWK- A support turret. Dorsal baring aces. AI should lean toward flanking and circle strafing- perhaps take  a que from the Decimator AI? The HWK's stars are kinda squishy- it'll bug out as fast as the Xwing does. Perhaps a "Civilian Hyperdrive" where it actually goes flee AI and runs to the board edge?

 

AI Headhunter- Last year's Xwing. less durable, but no hyperdrive- you cant run it off, but it's easier to get kill XP for it. Headhunters should be primaraly dogfighting so actually filling a similar role to the Awing, but less effectively.

 

AI Falcon- Primary turret that should be focused on running away. Should probably have a modified hyperspace rule for large base rebels, as narratively they should be hypering away as soon as possible, but have to get out of the asteroids/mines/nebula first

 

AI Ghost- Arc focused heavy freighter. Like the falcon, it really needs to clear out of the battlefield before it hypers, but is a nasty dogfighter while it's still in the fight.

 

"Hunters" Tie fighter- while PS1 with Init sucks at the beginning, once you're over that initial difficulty it should be fine. It's worse than other ships, but it also weakens the opposition by only counting as half a ship for the spawn chart.

 

"Hunters" Intercepter- Actually one of the stronger options for imperial ships, and a good argument for not having a "hyperdrive modification". Good offence, good defence, Awesome dial, and extra cutomizability, with the normal standby Engine Upgrade built in. A bit fragile, but a few hull upgrades will fix that.

 

"Hunters" Bomber/Shuttle- lots of options here, will have to see how it plays out. The Tie shuttle should be an assist generating machine with System an Fleet officers, but we'll see how it does.

 

"Hunters" Tie Inquisitor- A slower, shielded, hyperdrive and missile equipped Intercepter. Not much to say here, there are pros and cons compairing the two, which makes it comparable to the relationship between the XWing and Bwing or Ywing and HWK.

 

"Hunters" Tie Defender- Without the Imperial Veterans titles, the Defender brings raw stats and offensive options, but not much in the way of actual synergy. It's an upgrade over the Tie Advance, if you dont mind losing the autocrit, Accuracy corrector, or sensor jammer. Again, pros and cons, good for the game

 

"Hunters" Tie Phantom- ACD is banned for fundamental problems with group PS and Elites. With that gone, however, the Phantom is interesting because it has the highest attack available, and the highest defense available, but not at the same time. The system and crew slot complement either approach. Hacking Intel Agent to work with AI is easy, though not necessarily simple- rolling the AI's die before decloaking but not actually locking in the roll's a maneuver till the AI activates.

 

"Hunters" Lambada- bigger, less maneuverable Tie Shuttle with bigger guns and a hyperdrive. can also protect friendlies by abusing the dock/undock mechanics, and rescue hyperdriveless allies in the thick of battle and after a mission failure. Howevver, I took away it's first Elite slot in exchange for the shuttle title, because the shuttle is not normally supposed to have an EPT even for the "aces"

 

Tie Punisher- less agility, but otherwise pretty much a strictly superior Tie Bomber. if I add it to Hunters, it's probably going to lose the first EPT as well- you gain the system, an extra bomb and built in boost but lose 1/4 of your broken imperial pilot abilities.

 

Decimator- Too much for HotAC players. Some missions may involve protecting a Deci, Shuttle, Gozanti or Raider as they do things, much like the protect the falcon missions in Heros, but the mission they are in should be designed with them in mind- they are too much for players to use regularly.

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I think the transports need one solid AI, and then a variation for the Ghost since it is less turret oriented.

Otherwise many of the AI ideas you have are good.

I think having two Xwing AIs is good still, and then only one for the other ships.

The only reason I say 2 with the Xwing is since as I brought up having two would be good for some reble ships, but really most are dedicated to one role. The Xwing less so, yes it is really good as a fighter, but it can if needed be the attack ship against bigger targets.

So maybe again a regular Xwing which is the standard attack fighter trgets AI, and the other where it focuses on the Imperial transport/capital ship/base, and then after its torp attack it goes after the fighters.

Edited by knavelead

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Proposed Imperial ship Tier list: (fully loaded)

 

Tie Phantom (ACD vs lower PS)

 

Royal Guard Intercepter

Defender X7

Defender Tie/D

 

Intercepter
Tie Inquisitor (v1)

Tie Phantom (Modified ACD- autocloak at end of round)

Tie Punisher

Tie Fighterx2

 

Tie Bomber

Tie Punisher (minus 1 Elite slot)

Tie Advance (x1)

Defender (no title)

 

Tie FO

Lambada shuttle

Tie Shuttle

Tie Phantom (vs higher PS Ace)

 

Tie Phantom (no ACD)

Tie Fighter

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Rakaydos

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Drop the FO, it doesnt fit in the time era.

There is no way 2 regular ties that stick together are asgood as the Phantom nor Punisher...they'd be hard pressed to be on par with the Interceptor.

And again if the Interceptor is that good, shouldnt the defender be better, so give it titles exactly as I suggessted a couple weeks ago, where they have to use the X7 before going to the Tie/D, especially if you are putting the Phantom in.

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Proposed Imperial ship Tier list: (fully loaded)

 

 

Tie Phantom (ACD vs lower PS)

 

Royal Guard Tie Intercepter

Defender X7

Defender Tie/D

 

Tie Intercepter

Tie Inquisitor (v1)

Tie Phantom (Modified ACD- autocloak at end of round)

Tie Punisher

Tie Fighterx2

 

Tie Bomber

Tie Punisher (minus 1 Elite slot)

Tie Advance (x1)

Defender (no title)

 

Tie FO

Lambada shuttle

Tie Shuttle

Tie Phantom (vs higher PS Ace)

 

Tie Phantom (no ACD)

Tie Fighter

 

 

Thoughts?

  

Drop the FO, it doesnt fit in the time era.

There is no way 2 regular ties that stick together are asgood as the Phantom nor Punisher...they'd be hard pressed to be on par with the Interceptor.

And again if the Interceptor is that good, shouldnt the defender be better, so give it titles exactly as I suggessted a couple weeks ago, where they have to use the X7 before going to the Tie/D, especially if you are putting the Phantom in.

Who said the tie fighters are sticking together? And pay attention to the postscript- the tie phantom with ACD vs HotAC mobs is god tier and the phantom without ACD is bottom tier. The one in the middle is a possible compromise.

If you want a campaign where the ships are Royal Guard Intercepter, Tie/D Defender, Tie X7 Defendee, ACD Phantom and Decimator, thats a reasonably balanced group. But its only got 4 ships, and is significantly more powerful than the ships in Heros.

I prefer to start wirh the middle tiers and figure out how to meet the others in the middle. Inquisitor tie, Tie bomber, titleless Defender, Advance X1, lambada shuttle... these are all about the same power.

Edited by Rakaydos

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In my opinion, the orange green and blue tiers are the level to build a campain around. Everything except the Tie Phantom (before houserules), Decimater, and tie fighter have a version within those tiers.

 

A baseline Intercepter (no royal guard extra mod) is still better than, say, a Tie Advanced x1 for a HotAC format, but it's not so OP that you cant argue a TAP's missile+title+shield+Targeting Computer+Hyperdrive can counter the Tie Intercepters better attack and dial, or the Tie Advance's system slot offering better utility than the Defender's cannon and missile.

 

In Hunters, I make Tie Fighters worth half a player for the spawn chart because I feel 2 customized HotAC Tie fighters is high green/ low orange tier... AND people really want to start in tie fighters, for thematic reasons. (however half-playercounts round up- you cant auto-win a scenerio by sending a lone tie fighter to make no enemies spawn)

 

Some ideas floated to bring the Phantom within the orange, green or blue tiers include:

Phantom autocloaks at the end of the round

ACD makes the phantom autocloak at the end of round

ACD makes the phantom autocloak at the end of any round it gets to shoot

ACD is banned, but phantoms use old decloak rules.

 

Where would these phantom options fit on the tier list, in your opinion?

Edited by Rakaydos

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Proposed Imperial ship Tier list: (fully loaded)

 

Tie Phantom (ACD vs lower PS)

 

Royal Guard Intercepter

Defender X7

Defender Tie/D

 

Intercepter

Tie Inquisitor (v1)

Tie Phantom (Modified ACD- autocloak at end of round)

Tie Punisher

Tie Fighterx2

 

Tie Bomber

Tie Punisher (minus 1 Elite slot)

Tie Advance (x1)

Defender (no title)

 

Tie FO

Lambada shuttle

Tie Shuttle

Tie Phantom (vs higher PS Ace)

 

Tie Phantom (no ACD)

Tie Fighter

 

 

Thoughts?

Hmm.. If anything, I think the Tie Advance x1 needs a buff, especially if the tie punisher is involved. Ignoring all the munition slots, it's only slightly less manuverable than the Advance, has built in Boost, and has almost twice the health (in exchange for most of it's agility) The system is good for all the same shenanigans except the ATC, and the punisher looks at the  Advance's one missile slot and laughs. Even if the punisher misses out on it's first elite/pilot slot, it's still taking the niches of two different craft at the same time- 1 less pilot ability might not be enough to keep Tie Advances flying.

 

Pehaps if ATC was built in, AND it had another system slot?

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Jm0kbDR.png

 

Kturns... never a bad move.

Wait, ,why so many Kturns on targets to the side, those should be 3 hard-turns like you had before.

 

With Imperial Veterans out, you should have experienced how good a spammable Kturn is. Itt's a speed 4 maneuver, potentially getting out of arc, and it brings the firearc to cover it's former flanks and rear. Especially if an attacker on the flanks hasnt moved yet, it's got a good chance of catching it's opponent in arc.

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