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Errata Accurate rules

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Some of my group people think that trait "accurate" is too powerfull. Especially after Errata. so, instead of rolling extra damage they made it that every degree adds 1 point damage.
I think this modification makes accurate weapons absolete. Especially if you want to be sniper.

 

I bring that in Armaggedon wars there these called "Ork snipers" who used long-las to kill space marines. So accurate weapons should be deadly. Now, nobody seems to care. just goes into fire. It just seems you cna only bring them to cover by using big auto guns.

Could you suggest something?

 

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Without the Errata-as-written, or something close to that - personally, I use it as written (bonus damage capped at +2d10) for Pistols with Accurate and remove the bonus damage cap for Basic Weapons with Accurate - the single-shot sniping approach is pointless and wildly outclassed. You're better off taking a weapon with a high fire rate and hosing down the enemy (especially with the DH +BS for semi- and full-auto attacks). Or taking a lascannon or something if you only get one shot.

 

Consider that with Errata As Written, a standard autogun with 5 DoS on full-auto is 5 instances of 1d10+3 I pen 0, avg damage 40 -5x Armor+TB, max 65 -5x Armor+TB and 5 chances to Righteous Fury; a hunting rifle with 5 DoS is 3d10+3 I pen 0, avg damage 19 -Armor+TB, max 33 -Armor+TB, and 3 chances to get a Righteous Fury. With the Accurate as your group is doing, the hunting rifle with 5 DoS is 1d10+8, avg damage 13 -Armor+TB, max 18-Armor+TB and only one chance to Righteous Fury.

Figure a generic human has TB 3 and 10 Wounds. Give him light flak for 2 points of armor. The 5 DoS avg damage autogun does 15 points of damage, the Errata 5DoS avg damage hunting rifle does 14 points of damage, and your group's 5 DoS avg damage Hunting Rifle does 8 points of damage.

If you're using say, manstopper ammunition, the 5 DoS avg damage autogun does 25 points of damage, the 5 DoS Errata hunting rifle does 16 points of damage, and your group's 5 DoS hunting rifle does 10 points of damage.

The autogun puts him into Critical Damage, the Errata hunting rifle puts him into critical damage, your group's hunting rifle only leaves him heavily wounded.

Plus, none of this is even considering the fact that it only takes a basic success to completely Dodge the hunting rifle, whereas that same basic success only Dodges one of the five hits from the autogun, still leaving you hit with four shots. Or that Righteous Fury is more likely with the autogun.

It takes a net armor and TB reduction of 7 after armor penetration (so ... TB 3 and light power armor or storm trooper carapace and TB 4 assuming manstopper ammunition, or TB 3 and guard flak without any special ammo) for the standard autogun and your group's hunting rifle to have equivalent average damage for the same DoS, ignoring Dodge and Righteous Fury, both of which give advantages to the autogun.

The comparison is worse if we look at weapons with a stronger base profile/more base damage than the standard autogun. Which is not difficult to get to.

 

Snipers are supposed to be incredibly dangerous when they're working properly. That's the point behind using them.

Errata-Accurate is the mechanic by which snipers are made to function. Errata-as-written still leaves them somewhat underpowered, imo, and thus I've made Accurate stronger*.

Remember, to get the benefits of Accurate, you need to Aim first - and if you do anything between Aiming and shooting, you loose the benefits of Aiming. At best, you're getting off one shot per round with a Half action Aim, if you want a full-Aim you're getting off one shot every other round or so.

 

 

*It cuts both ways, a PC sniper-type gets to benefit and shine with their rifle. On the other hand, unfriendly snipers are actual problems and fully capable of culling the idiots. You counter snipers with your own sniper and with taking full advantage of cover and concealment. Which is as it should be.

 

 

 

If you're a player and want to be a sniper-type, bring in the math to support you - Aiming plus Accurate is supposed to be the sniper's equivalent of full-auto.

If you're the GM and want to convince them to go along with restoring Accurate to Errata-strength or strengthening it further ... give them a mission where sniping (ie, one shot kills) is something that they need to do to not set off alarms and get slammed with lots of reinforcements and issue them sniper rifles; or give them a mission where they have some NPC sniper support - but alas their supporting snipers probably can't actually stop the enemies that get the jump on or outflank the PCs while they're engaged with another force.

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Without the Errata-as-written, or something close to that - personally, I use it as written (bonus damage capped at +2d10) for Pistols with Accurate and remove the bonus damage cap for Basic Weapons with Accurate - the single-shot sniping approach is pointless and wildly outclassed. You're better off taking a weapon with a high fire rate and hosing down the enemy (especially with the DH +BS for semi- and full-auto attacks). Or taking a lascannon or something if you only get one shot.

 

Consider that with Errata As Written, a standard autogun with 5 DoS on full-auto is 5 instances of 1d10+3 I pen 0, avg damage 40 -5x Armor+TB, max 65 -5x Armor+TB and 5 chances to Righteous Fury; a hunting rifle with 5 DoS is 3d10+3 I pen 0, avg damage 19 -Armor+TB, max 33 -Armor+TB, and 3 chances to get a Righteous Fury. With the Accurate as your group is doing, the hunting rifle with 5 DoS is 1d10+8, avg damage 13 -Armor+TB, max 18-Armor+TB and only one chance to Righteous Fury.

Figure a generic human has TB 3 and 10 Wounds. Give him light flak for 2 points of armor. The 5 DoS avg damage autogun does 15 points of damage, the Errata 5DoS avg damage hunting rifle does 14 points of damage, and your group's 5 DoS avg damage Hunting Rifle does 8 points of damage.

If you're using say, manstopper ammunition, the 5 DoS avg damage autogun does 25 points of damage, the 5 DoS Errata hunting rifle does 16 points of damage, and your group's 5 DoS hunting rifle does 10 points of damage.

The autogun puts him into Critical Damage, the Errata hunting rifle puts him into critical damage, your group's hunting rifle only leaves him heavily wounded.

Plus, none of this is even considering the fact that it only takes a basic success to completely Dodge the hunting rifle, whereas that same basic success only Dodges one of the five hits from the autogun, still leaving you hit with four shots. Or that Righteous Fury is more likely with the autogun.

It takes a net armor and TB reduction of 7 after armor penetration (so ... TB 3 and light power armor or storm trooper carapace and TB 4 assuming manstopper ammunition, or TB 3 and guard flak without any special ammo) for the standard autogun and your group's hunting rifle to have equivalent average damage for the same DoS, ignoring Dodge and Righteous Fury, both of which give advantages to the autogun.

The comparison is worse if we look at weapons with a stronger base profile/more base damage than the standard autogun. Which is not difficult to get to.

 

Snipers are supposed to be incredibly dangerous when they're working properly. That's the point behind using them.

Errata-Accurate is the mechanic by which snipers are made to function. Errata-as-written still leaves them somewhat underpowered, imo, and thus I've made Accurate stronger*.

Remember, to get the benefits of Accurate, you need to Aim first - and if you do anything between Aiming and shooting, you loose the benefits of Aiming. At best, you're getting off one shot per round with a Half action Aim, if you want a full-Aim you're getting off one shot every other round or so.

 

 

*It cuts both ways, a PC sniper-type gets to benefit and shine with their rifle. On the other hand, unfriendly snipers are actual problems and fully capable of culling the idiots. You counter snipers with your own sniper and with taking full advantage of cover and concealment. Which is as it should be.

 

 

 

If you're a player and want to be a sniper-type, bring in the math to support you - Aiming plus Accurate is supposed to be the sniper's equivalent of full-auto.

If you're the GM and want to convince them to go along with restoring Accurate to Errata-strength or strengthening it further ... give them a mission where sniping (ie, one shot kills) is something that they need to do to not set off alarms and get slammed with lots of reinforcements and issue them sniper rifles; or give them a mission where they have some NPC sniper support - but alas their supporting snipers probably can't actually stop the enemies that get the jump on or outflank the PCs while they're engaged with another force.

Thanks for your reply.

However, my friends still does not believe these facts.

"They say, why then not to use Hunting rifles instead of autoguns. It is retarded not to use a weapon with better damage output".

This is really just sad logic....

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Because hosing down a target with full auto fire* is the same as sniping that same target cleanly. :rolleyes:

*And having maybe half the bullets you just shot miss and go flying past to hit other stuff and alert the guy around the corner/behind the door, or the civilians/high value assets the guy is standing in front of that you're supposed to be rescuing.

 

 

The big problem on damage output is their nerf from the Errata-Accurate. Even with Errata, the marksman approach isn't easy. For that matter, even with my house-rule expansion of Accurate to include pistols and lifting the damage cap on basic weapons, it's still not overpowered.

You're getting the bonus damage dice at the same rate of extra hits on semi-auto. And it's still easier to Dodge.

 

 

Did they say why they think Errata-Accurate needed to be nerfed?

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Because hosing down a target with full auto fire* is the same as sniping that same target cleanly. :rolleyes:

*And having maybe half the bullets you just shot miss and go flying past to hit other stuff and alert the guy around the corner/behind the door, or the civilians/high value assets the guy is standing in front of that you're supposed to be rescuing.

 

 

The big problem on damage output is their nerf from the Errata-Accurate. Even with Errata, the marksman approach isn't easy. For that matter, even with my house-rule expansion of Accurate to include pistols and lifting the damage cap on basic weapons, it's still not overpowered.

You're getting the bonus damage dice at the same rate of extra hits on semi-auto. And it's still easier to Dodge.

 

 

Did they say why they think Errata-Accurate needed to be nerfed?

 

I forgot to mention. We have a custom rule for dodging. We do not allow to dodge if you are not aware of shot, you cant dodge.

Their arguments:

1. an example of 5DoS, 5 shots from autogun. This is non-standard luck: if you have an average BS (~40), half-aim-accurate or full-auto (+20) and short-range (+10, autogun=45m), and without any minuses, threshold is 70. If an average roll is 50, then we can expect 3 shots. This is without taking in account the fact that Hunting rifle gets "short range" from even being further (75m). The difference is minor.

2. About "easier to dodge". We use a rule, that if you are not aware of shot then you cant dodge. Taking this into account with the snipers possibility to shoot from afar, +concept-wise single-shot is harder to notice, than full-auto, and finally if you have in mind those mentioned 3 (not 5) autogun shots, I just dissagree. This is not valid if sniper behaves like sniper and do sniping instead of shooting from long-ranged shotgun.

 

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Because hosing down a target with full auto fire* is the same as sniping that same target cleanly. :rolleyes:

*And having maybe half the bullets you just shot miss and go flying past to hit other stuff and alert the guy around the corner/behind the door, or the civilians/high value assets the guy is standing in front of that you're supposed to be rescuing.

 

 

The big problem on damage output is their nerf from the Errata-Accurate. Even with Errata, the marksman approach isn't easy. For that matter, even with my house-rule expansion of Accurate to include pistols and lifting the damage cap on basic weapons, it's still not overpowered.

You're getting the bonus damage dice at the same rate of extra hits on semi-auto. And it's still easier to Dodge.

 

 

Did they say why they think Errata-Accurate needed to be nerfed?

 

I forgot to mention. We have a custom rule for dodging. We do not allow to dodge if you are not aware of shot, you cant dodge.

Their arguments:

1. an example of 5DoS, 5 shots from autogun. This is non-standard luck: if you have an average BS (~40), half-aim-accurate or full-auto (+20) and short-range (+10, autogun=45m), and without any minuses, threshold is 70. If an average roll is 50, then we can expect 3 shots. This is without taking in account the fact that Hunting rifle gets "short range" from even being further (75m). The difference is minor.

2. About "easier to dodge". We use a rule, that if you are not aware of shot then you cant dodge. Taking this into account with the snipers possibility to shoot from afar, +concept-wise single-shot is harder to notice, than full-auto, and finally if you have in mind those mentioned 3 (not 5) autogun shots, I just dissagree. This is not valid if sniper behaves like sniper and do sniping instead of shooting from long-ranged shotgun.

 

 

I used 5 DoS because it's the max damage output for Errata-Accurate.

 

 

3 DoS would be +1d10 with Errata-Accurate, or 2d10+3 I pen 0 for a standard hunting rifle with no special ammo. Average damage of 14 -Armor+TB, max 23 -Armor+TB. 2 chances for Righteous Fury

3 DoS would be 3 1d10+3 I pen 0 hits from a standard autogun, average damage 25 -3x Armor+TB, max 39 -3x Armor+TB. 3 chances for Righteous Fury

3 DoS with their version of Accurate would 1d10+6 I, average damage 11 -Armor+TB, max 16 -Armor+TB. 1 chance for Righteous Fury

Assume TB 3, no armor, and average damage, the Errata hunting rifle does 11, the autogun does 16, their Accurate hunting rifle does 8.

A generic human has an average wounds of 10, the Errata-Accurate just barely puts him into critical damage, the autogun has him in the mid-crit range, where things are getting serious, while their version just leaves him with a flesh wound, heavily wounded, and probably diving for cover and sounding an alarm.

Average damage for As-Written equals out at a net Armor+TB reduction (after penetration) of 5 (TB 3 and light flak, or TB 4 and guard flak against manstoppers).

Average damage for their version equals out at a net Armor+TB reduction (after penetration) of 7 (TB 3 and guard flak, or TB 4 and stormtrooper carapace against manstoppers).

 

 

The autogun (or shotgun, or any gun providing multiple hits) also benefits more from things like Mighty Shot and +penetration, +damage, or +effect ammo, than does the hunting rifle.

 

If we add Mighty Shot (+2 damage with ranged weapons) into the mix, which is a talent to be expected for a shooter.

3 DoS Errata-Accurate Hunting Rifle: 2d10+5, average damage 16 -Armor+TB, max 25 -Armor+TB

3 DoS their hunting Rifle: 1d10+8 I, average damage 13 -Armor+TB, max 18 -Armor+TB

3 DoS autogun: 3x 1d10+5, average damage 31 -3x Armor+TB, max 45 -3x Armor+TB

TB 3, no armor, average damage Errata-rifle 13, Their-Rifle 10, autogun 22.

Generic human with 10 wounds is thoroughly killed by the autogun, the Errata-rifle has left a fairly minor critical, and their rifle leaves him heavily wounded, but not critically so.

Errata-Rifle and autogun equal out at between 7-8 net Armor+TB reduction (7 is 9 versus 10, 8 is 8 versus 7, respectively); TB 3-4 with guard flak, or TB3-4 with light power armor against manstoppers.

Their rifle and autogun equal out at 9 net Armor+TB reduction ... which is TB3 and storm trooper carapace, or TB 5 and light power armor against manstoppers.

 

 

Not being aware of a shot only nulls the dodgeability difference outside of regular combat - during regular combat*, the difference in dodgeability most certainly does apply. Is the sharpshooter supposed to not shoot people in regular combat?

And, like they said, "It is retarded not to use a weapon with better damage output" - the autogun will still do more damage ... put a silencer on it and between that and distance penalties, sure, a hypothetical somebody close to the guy you were shooting might notice he got shot, and maybe he'll come check it out and sound an alarm, but even if he does, he's not gonna know where you are shooting from. But if you don't put enough damage on the target to drop him, he's definitely going to sound the alarm and have a much better idea of where the shot came from.

 

 

 

No comment on the difference in getting Righteous Fury?

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Hello
I'm one of the players of the said group. 
First of all, let me apologise for my tarzan english, mistakes will be made.

Secondly, our rule goes kind of like this: “When firing a single shot from a single Weapon with the Accurate quality benefiting from the Aim action, the attack gains extra point of damage for every DoS. Additional damage is not capped by ballistic skill treshold. (i.e when player makes a test with +70 or more on ballistic skill test he can easily exceed the treshold of 100.) The cap for actual test still aplies”

+70 on balistic skill test may sound like alot, but consider the following:

Short range +10

Full action aim +20
Accurate +10
High Ground +10
Red dot sight +10
Targeter +10 (provided you have the money for it, and it does not count as a sight)
That's +70 right there


So a player with 40 BS when making a bs skill test and roling a 30 will have 8 DoS, which results in +8 additional damage which is not reduced by toughness and armor, unlike additional hits from fullauto burst or semi automatic. 


And that's not counting bonuses from surprise and logis implants, which can add +30 and +10 respectivly.

Considering that avarage high level player will have around 45-50bs an avarage shot with +90 roll modifier (all of the above without logis implants and targeter) made with a hunting rifle, if my math is correct will result in avarage damage(1d10+3+9) of 17.5 and max damage of 22 (not counting the RF). Which is alot. And that's just a hunting rifle with stock ammo.
At the same time a long las with hot shot will do even more damage.

Imho, our rule fits in nicely with accurate weapons, since it encourages preparation, caluclated shots and actually investing in ballistic skill talents. If you take time to actually prepare and invest in sniping skills (marksman, sharpshooter etc). You will make extreme range shots which almost never miss and do lots of damage per hit. Extreme range for hunting rifle will be ~450m, you will effectively exceed range of your enemies by several times.   
 
 
Additionaly, this is the PRIMARY reason why we nerfed accurate errata rule:
Lets us take 4 weapons
A hunting rifle: 
Hunting Rifle Basic 150m S/–/– 1d10+3 I 0 PEN 5 Full Accurate 5kg 100 Scarce
A generic bolt gun:
Boltgun Basic 90m S/2/– 1d10+5 X 4 PEN 24 Full Tearing 7 kg 500
Plasma gun:
Plasma Gun Basic 90m S/2/– 1d10+6 E 6 PEN 20 8Full Recharge, Overheats 11 kg 3000
And a melta gun:
Meltagun Basic 20m S/–/– 2d10+4 E 12 PEN 5 2Full 8 kg 4000
 
And now we shall count, the avarage damage of weapon per hit ech weapon is used with their stock ammo and assuming an avarage enemy will have 4 points of armor i.e. guard flak:

First the hunting rifle with errata acurate applied:
Roll: 3d10+3
Statistics
Min: 6
Max: 33
Avg: 19.50

Now lets compare it with other weapons:
Roll: 1d10+5+4
Statistics
Min: 10
Max: 19
Avg: 14.50
Because of tearing avg. dmg per shot will vary at arround 16.5
So Hunting rifle on avarage will autdamage an boltgun. since boltgun ammo is "very cheap" boltgun seems as very usefull weapon.

Let's move on to plama
Roll: 1d10+6+4
Statistics
Min: 11
Max: 20
Avg: 15.50

Hmm, hunting rifle still seems better on avarage even though it costs 30 times less

Let's assume the enemy has carapace armor and not just any carapace but storm troopers.

Roll: 1d10+6+6
Statistics
Min: 13
Max: 22
Avg: 17.50
Std Dev: 2.872

Hmm, still not as effective as hunting rifle with cheap ammo.
Let's assume the enemy has power armor with armor protection of 10

Roll: 1d10+6+10
Statistics
Min: 17
Max: 26
Avg: 21.50
Std Dev: 2.872

Progress! Finaly a weapon which costs 30 times more will on avarage outdamage the hunting rifle when shooting into the power armor by 2 damage.

What happens if we move on to melta.

Roll: 2d10+4+4
Statistics
Min: 10
Max: 28
Avg: 19.00
 
Not as effective as a hunting rifle but we are getting there.
Let's assume that the enemy has a power armor with armor rating of 12
Roll: 2d10+4+12
Statistics
Min: 18
Max: 36
Avg: 27.00

Finaly a considerable difference of 7.5 on avarage damage for 40times the price.

Well it seems that h.r. is be all end all of ranged weapons so that's a plus.

BONUS round
Let's take long las with hot shot ammo:
Roll: 3d10+4+4
Statistics
Min: 11
Max: 38
Avg: 24.50

and let's not forget that hot shot grant's tearing.
so avg will be around 26.5. 
And let's not forget that the range for Long Las is 150. So you have a portable cannot which does melta level damage at extreeme range.

maybe these will put some context
 
Edited by hav0c

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Hello! I'm just one other guy from the three that strongly support the modified accurate rules. So, our group has received a second reference to this thread in three days, quoting it in religious fervour. This is getting annoying, so here I am! I'll try to crunch the damage numbers.

 

Firstly, I want to share some relevant things that are true to our games:
1. We are currently using mid-late game DH characters (average xp > 6000)

2. The average PC damage reduction is >8. The average NPC damage reduction is >5 (mini-bosses are common)

3. Due to lack of funds, our average weaponry is mid-grade SP and some flamers. Bolt weapons are extremely rare, and none of the 5 current characters have a bolter.

4. We have modified accurate, changing the damage bonus to +1dmg per DoS.

5. We have modified dodge, disallowing to dodge unperceived targets (prompting an Awareness test in case there is doubt whether it is perceived, and just strictly forbidding it if there is no doubt).

6. We have modified scatter, adding that it also scores an extra hit per 3DoS in Short Range. 

 

Now, let's compare three standard, vanilla weapons:

Shotgun        30m     S/–/–    1d10+4I   0PEN   2Clip   2FullReload    Scatter,Reliable     5kg     60€
Autogun        90m     S/3/10  1d10+3I   0PEN   30Clip 1FullReload                              3.5kg 100€

Hunting Rifle 150m   S/–/–    1d10+3I   0PEN   5Clip    1FullReload    Accurate                5kg    100€

 

We argue that errata accurate makes Accurate weapons overpowered. Let's compare them. Let's assume a range of 45 (believable mid-range combat shooting distance), and no other variables, i.e. people have no cover, are not running, ect. Lastly, let's assume that the shooter has a BS of 41.

 

The bonuses distribute as follows:

Shotgun: Aim +10 = +10.

Autogun: Full-auto +20, Short-Range+10 = +30.

HuntingR.: Aim+10, Accurate+10, Short-Range+10 = +30.

Therefore, the hits scored are:

Roll                     01         11         21          31          41        51          61        71         81

Shotgun            1Hit,       1Hit,      1Hit,      1Hit,      1Hit,     1Hit,          -           -            -

Autogun            8Hit,       7Hit,      6Hit,      ****,      4Hit,     3Hit,        2Hit,     1Hit,        -   

HuntingR.          1+2d10,   1+2d10,   1+2d10,   1+2d10,   1+1d10,  1+1d10,    1Hit,     1Hit,        -    

 

Now, damage. Counting different TB+AP points:  poorman(~4), mid-mercs (~7) and well-armored(~11), the damage PER HIT is:

Shotgun:            
vs poorman =  (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10* =  5.5 average dmg, 10% RF.
vs merc: =       (0+0+0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7)/10 = 4 average dmg, 10% RF.

vs armored: =  (0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+2+3)/10 = 2.0 average dmg, 10% RF.

*Each number in the brackets represents a roll, eg. roll of 1 + 4 bonus - 4 AP&TB

 

Autogun:

vs poorman = (0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)/10 =  4.5 average dmg, 10% RF.
vs merc =       (0+0+0+0+1+2+3+4+5+6)/10 =  3.5 average dmg, 10% RF.

vs armored: = (0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+2)/10 =  1.5 average dmg, 10% RF.

 

In the case of Hunting rifle, let's just count how much damage it would do with one shot:

vs poorman = (0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)/10 =  4.5 average dmg, 10% RF.
vs merc =       (0+0+0+0+1+2+3+4+5+6)/10 =  3.5 average dmg, 10% RF.

vs armored: = (0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+2)/10 =  1.5 average dmg, 10% RF.

Now with an extra 1d10 (simply adding the average roll of 5.5. to the regular dmg roll; I'm too lazy to go even deeper into statistics):

vs poorman = (5.5+6.5+7.5+8.5+9.5+10.5+11.5+12.5+13.5+14.5)/10 =  10 average dmg, 19% RF.

vs merc =       (2.5+3.5+4.5+5.5+6.5+7.5+8.5+9.5+10.5+11.5)/10 =  7 average dmg, 19% RF.

vs armored: = (0+0+0.5+1.5+2.5+3.5+4.5+5.5+6.5+7.5)/10 =  3.2 average dmg, 19% RF.

Now with an extra 2d10 there's not any more complex calculation, because since damage is already being dealt by average (and I got tired of calcutating even more precisely), let's just add 5.5 ture dmg.:

vs poorman = 15.5 average dmg, 10% RF.

vs merc =       12.5 average dmg, 19% RF.

vs armored: = 8.7 average dmg, 27% RF.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, what does all of this wall of numbers mean? 

 

Let's use and interpret this. So, on the same roll (in this case, 71), autogun does the exact same damage as a hunting rifle. On 2DoS (in this case, 51), autogun deals 13.5/10.5/4.5 damage, depending on how much armor the enemy has; the hunting rifle deals 10/7/3.2 dmg. And on 4DoS (in this case, 31), the autogun deals 22.5/17.5/7.5 damage; the hunting rifle deals 15.5/12.5/8.7 damage. At the same time, shotgun basically sucks, with it's 5.5/4/2 average damage.

 

So you're wrong - autogun is still better!

 

In this instance - yes. However, this situation is ideal to the autogun on the terms of range. Hunting rifle can be used from 1.6 further away without losing the short range bonus. If we were to change the range from 45 to 75, the autogun would basically lose 1 hit on average. The result? The damage of the autogun on 1DoS (expected roll of 51) drops to 9/7/3, and on 3DoS (31) drops to 18/14/6. Which is pretty much identical to the hunting rifle, albeit situational to the 45-75 and 180+ range bracket.

 

Oh, and there's the thing that an autogun can fire full-auto before reloading 3 times. Hunting rifle can fire 5 times.

RF is a plus, but it is partially compensated by increased jam chance.

Suppressive fire is great, if you can come into that 45m range.

And just try to snipe someone with a "silent" full-auto burst from 600m away.

 

So they're both ok, just quite situational?

 

Yes.

 

Why the nerf then?

 

Nerf hits hunting rifle where it is nonsensical the most - in the hands of 30BS pawns that never held a gun in their life. Also, this removes the big damage fluctuations, when a simple hunting rifle would could pierce the best Power Armors. Lastly, with the best bonuses (aim+20, accurate+10, high-ground+10, red dot+10, targeter+10 surprise +30 = +90 (I'm considering to remove bonus cap for accurate)) and a great marksman (no need for telescopic sight, 50BS), the average roll of 50 would guarantee 9DoS, which would result in +9 dmg. Which is not that different from Errata's version of 2d10=+11, as long as you are sniping with surprise (and not blasting constantly in a firefight). In short, great marksmen are a little less great, and scum now are really bad at sniping.

 

But that still is a nerf...

Yes. Deal with it. And if you do mourn that obsoleteness of the snipers, I have one activity to cheer you up:
1. Buy a Long Las and a Hotshot Charge pack for a cheap price of 115. 

2. Enjoy your 1d10+4, 4PEN, Tearing, Accurate 1-shot carnage.

3. Realise that even with our system, with a few DoS this is a cheap plasma rifle. With extreme range.

4. Shotguns many usable, very everone sad about obsolete.

 

I hope that I made our position understandable. Thank you for your patience with this :)

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I put some good numbers int table https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oIbAj6mFeTCe8CdY59hAc5JC589EvYYdCSpQLThdSsw/edit?usp=sharing
There are various weapons

Autopistol can outperform Hunting Rifle.

Calculations are being made simple. 2 full turns. Now, if really want, you can add that additional half turn attack to Hunting rifle or any other where it fits. Autogun would still outperform Hunting Rifle. Not to mention RF on pc side, where with autogun you can reach 65% probability of  at least one of them.

 

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I noticed that you do 3 shot damage reduction with 3xArmor but only 1xTB. I cant find this one in rules.

It is 3x (Armor+TB).

 

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----

 

The hunting rifle is supposed to be better at longer ranges. Unfortunately, unless you're at extreme ranges, or for some reason stuck in one of the gaps in range increments, that range advantage is usually not going to matter, because you can usually get closer before you start shooting.

 

 

If somebody's got a tricked out hunting rifle with a laser sight and a targeter, they're not going to a putz with low BS, they're going to be a professional, unless somebody with a lot of disposable resources is backing them. For the same investment, they could have gotten a heavy bolter. Or be dual-wielding bolt pistols up close and have a bolter for the longer range stuff. Admittedly, a hunting rifle, even a tricked out one, is more discrete than bolt weapons, but still.

 

 

Could you try rephrasing your explanation of your Accurate houserule, I'm not sure I'm understanding it as you intend.

 

 

Also, the damage per hit is less important than the total damage per attack action. For the  extra DoS to get the hunting rifle's +2d10, the autogun (or other semi-/full- auto weapon) has those DoS too, or one less in a range increment gap. Which is multiple extra hits - and something that I don't see being accounted for in the reasoning behind nerfing Accurate.

In addition, the hunting rifle's damage output benefits just the once from +penetration, +damage, and +effect ammunition or talents, whereas the autogun(or any multiple-hit weapon) gets to benefit multiple times. This can contribute significantly to the total damage per attack.

 

 

 

 

All that being said, it is your game, and your house rules are ultimately up to you guys. I simply disagree with your apparent reasoning on nerfing Accurate.

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Oh ... just remembered/found this previous discussion about the Accurate trait.

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/134580-accurate-weapons-again/

 

 

It's from the Only War side, so semi- and full- autofire don't have +BS, but it might be worth a look for some of the conclusions and possible houserules people came up with to rebalance Accurate yet retain the viability/possibility of oneshotting people/instant kill capability. There's another discussion in the OW GM section about instant kills, too.

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