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Maturin

Admonition and discarding tokens

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Indeed. The rule Hastiator quotes prevents an ability like Vader's or TRC's from producing both the card effect and the usual token effect when spending it.

 

If Admonition required spending of the token (which, as pointed out above, it doesn't) another, more fundamental rule would kick in:

 

RRG p.4, Defense Tokens:

A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

 

So you could not spend a readied (green) defense token for its usual effect, then spend it again with Admonition (triggering a discard because it was already exhausted), because that would be spending it twice.

 

However, Admonition requires discarding of the token, which:

 

1) does not constitute a "spending", so the rule quoted by me does not kick in

2) does not produce any "normal" effect, so the rule quoted by Hastiator does not kick in

 

What's happening here are two separate, unrelated events:

 

i)  A token is being spent by the defender for its normal effect

ii) A token is being discarded by Admonition for that card's special effect

 

The above tokens may or may not be the same one. None of the rules quoted so far prevent the same token from being chosen, because the conditions simply aren't met.

 

adding to the above quote...  remember you could essentially use Admonition on a GREEN defense token to "discard" it and get the ability of the Admonition card, not that you would ever want to except in extreme cases. I think me stating that further defines that you "discard" a defense token at any time regardless if it is GREEN or RED to gain the effect of Admonition.

 

simply put, you "spend" a defense token to turn it RED, you "spend" it again to use it then it is "discarded".

 

with Admonition the word "spend" is never brought up, you just "discard" it, therefore the rule.

 

Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for
upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token
does not produce its normal effect.
 
DOES NOT Apply against Admonition.

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The MC30 title card Admonition lets you:

"...during the Spend Sefense Tokens step, you may discard a Defense token to cancel one attack die."

So can I exhaust a token, gaining its effects, and then discard that token to cancel a die, all during the same attack?

 

YES!

 

(it's the whole point of the title)

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The MC30 title card Admonition lets you:

"...during the Spend Sefense Tokens step, you may discard a Defense token to cancel one attack die."

So can I exhaust a token, gaining its effects, and then discard that token to cancel a die, all during the same attack?

 

YES!

 

(it's the whole point of the title)

 

And  in desperate times get around an accuracy.

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Seriously between this and the Devestator thread I'm really begining to question how badly various groups must misplay the rules for this game.

Drasnighta laid this out as clearly as it's ever going to be laid out for anyone.

Spending a defense token and discarding a defense token are two different game terms. They do not mean the same thing. The qouted rule in regards being able to spend tokens as apart of an upgrade card cost and not also getting it's normal effect doesn't even apply in this situation as the effect in question does no have you spend but discard a defense token. Again, spending and discarding a defense token are two different game terms.

 

Hey good job being demeaning and condescending!

 

Here's a free hint on not being a tool: If the rules were written perfectly and clearly they would not ever need any sort of FAQ or errata, yet here we have several pages of them and an entire sub-forum where people still have questions on interpretations.

 

I guess you are so amazing that you never wanted official confirmation on something before you take some internet posters opinion as cannon. Good for you!

Your medal and cookie are in the mail!

 

If medals could be given. . .

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You guys are focusing on the "spend" wording, with very much applying your own context to the word, which I understand, however you are completely ignoring the "cost" part of the wording, because it doesn't suit with what you already decided should be how it works, which is fine.

 

Personally, I sent it in as a rules clarification and I have a strong feeling it simply requires an FAQing to set straight. I'm sure if I was a rebel player I would be right there with you being a rules lawyer for the other interpretation :)

 

As for balance being an argument for how a card should work...well...lol you don't want to open THAT can of worms.

 

There's no problem with "cost." FFG is very particular about how they use words. The "cost" of Admonition is to discard a token. It is not to spend one.

 

Your way of thinking would be correct, if we started with a red defence token. It is 100% wrong to spend a red token (which causes it to be discarded) and then say, "since I discarded it, I trigger Admonition." Exactly as you quoted, you can't pay one cost to get two effects. The red token may be "spent" and then discarded for defence, or it may be discarded for Admonition.

 

But with a green token, you can spend it, to flip it red. Finish off whatever you're doing with it. Then that's completed, sealed, and delivered. After you're completely done with that, we can turn our attention to Admonition, and choose a token to discard. it may as well be this red one. We don't know why it's red. We don't care. It's not important.

 

It will be intersting to see what FFG has to say. I have ne expectation whatever that they will rule diffrently than I've said here, but I've been wrong before. (and once I was right, then they changed their minds a few months later. Wheee!)

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Discarding an exhausted defense token after you've spent it to gain it's effect is not a cost, that's just what happens when you spend an exhausted defense token.

Discarding a defense token to activate Admonition is paying the cost of that upgrade card and is not the same as spending it.

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May I clarify current views regarding this?  I agreed with the general consensus in this thread that if a token is exhausted (red side up) and you spend it for its normal effects you then discard, as the rules tell you to, and ergo Admonition's effect triggers.  Simple, or so i thought. 

 

However my attention has just been brought to another thread that contradicts that:

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/201362-admonition-clarification-from-ffg/?hl=admonition

 

I'm happy with matters regarding tokens in their readied (green) state.  The sticking point appears to be tokens that are already exhausted.  Even with the FFG clarification cited in the other thread I cannot see why they would rule that way.  Some explanation would be useful.  It hasn't appeared in a FAQ as far as i can tell.  

 

Many thanks 

Edited by Replicant253

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Can I clarify current views regarding this.  I agreed with the general consensus in this thread that if a token is exhausted (red side up) and you spend it for its normal effects you then discard, as the rules tell you to, and ergo Admonition's effect triggers.  Simple.

Thats not the consensus....

Admo can spend or discard an exhausted defence token and not both.

That said you may have a point about faq seeing as so many people are confused.

Its the difference between "you may discard" and "when a token is discarded".

When you spend an exhausted token, it is discarded. The act was spending, the byproduct is discarding. For admo, the act needs to be discarding.

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OK bad use of consensus, majority?  

 

Thanks for the response, and i understand the distinctions you lay out but do the rules deal with such terms as 'may' 'act' 'byproduct'?  You are spending and discarding, which seem to both be 'acts'.   

Edited by Replicant253

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May I clarify current views regarding this?  I agreed with the general consensus in this thread that if a token is exhausted (red side up) and you spend it for its normal effects you then discard, as the rules tell you to, and ergo Admonition's effect triggers.  Simple, or so i thought. 

 

However my attention has just been brought to another thread that contradicts that:

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/201362-admonition-clarification-from-ffg/?hl=admonition

 

I'm happy with matters regarding tokens in their readied (green) state.  The sticking point appears to be tokens that are already exhausted.  Even with the FFG clarification cited in the other thread I cannot see why they would rule that way.  Some explanation would be useful.  It hasn't appeared in a FAQ as far as i can tell.  

 

Many thanks 

 

Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

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Other annoying uses of Admo: get rid of a cirt...a blue Nym-crit is a popular thing to kill with Admo...so is that single (it happens, even in the age of OE) black hit-crit that prevents something nasty from triggering (which is probably why Ladonition is a thing...force a reroll all those hit-crits first...then kill the one that comes back up with Admo).

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Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

This bro. Sequencing is pretty clear in the ruleboook for red defense tokens - when they are spent, they are simultaneously discarded. You seem to think there is some kinda gap between the spend and discard of the token where you can jump in with admonition and say 'wait, I'm gonna discard this token before I have to discard it'. That ain't the way it works bro, spending and discarding are in the same sequence step, not seperate. I'm not even sure why you would need to think it does, It's already a great upgrade! trying to play it that way is a bit cheesy man...

OK bad use of consensus, majority?

not even bro, most posts here are correctly agreeing that spend and discard are seperate things, that's all. No one is saying that spending (and ergo discarding) a red defense token triggers admonition, cos it can't - the token is already discarded. you can't have ur Hershey bar and eat it dude.

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Blimey I though this was one everyone had agreed on.....

I will stick with:

As spending defence tokens and discarding a defence token to trigger admonition happens at the same time I can pick pick the order of all the events happening at the same time, so in whatever order I can:

1) spend a green token and turn it red

2) spend a red token and discarding it

4) trigger admonition and discard a token ( nothing in the description on only green tokens, so reds are ok)

So if my mc30 is hit at long range and has two red diverts and two green evades I could:

1) spend a green evade and turn it red, then remove a dice

2) spend a red divert discard it and declare the shield facing which I'm diverting to

3) I can then activate admonition by discarding my remaining red divert, my red evade or if I'm bonkers I can even discard my green evade.

That's how I play it

What I most defiantly can't do is spend a red defence token discard it and use the discard to trigger admonition. They are different actions and so the spent red token will be.....well discarded and therefore not available when you get to activate the admonition card.

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You have it correct there.

 

The only clarification that needs to be stated in your list, which is otherwise great, is the fact that you can only "Admonition Discard" one token.

 

 

But otherwise, yes, you have it. 

 

It just needs thorough reading of each step of the attack flowchart, and an understanding of the terminology of the game....  A lot of terms which we take for granted for in English are specifically defined in the rulebook, wether its in regards to timing or something else...  If you assume something outside of those strict definitions, you end up twisting yourself into rules-knots...

 

The one that's tripping people is:

Spend =/= Discard

 

Spend may result in Discard  (if the token chosen is Exhausted, or has been targeted by an Intel Officer).  But the action you are performing is Spend.  It just happens to Result in a Discard.  

When you focus on, "What am I doing?"  -  the Answer is "I am Spending..."  -  The game tells me I'm going to end up Discarding, but my action is Spend.

 

 

With Admonition, my action is Discard....   I am fully and totally and utterly going out of my way to Discard...  I'm not Spending.  I am Discarding.

 

This is why they are separate actions.

 

 

 

....

 

 

Honestly, its not the most contentious...  I wrote bunch previously on the potential discombobulation of the word "Attack" from two different meanings by simply using the word "Salvo" instead, but that is disingenuous to this conversation right now, other than just for background :D

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Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

This bro. Sequencing is pretty clear in the ruleboook for red defense tokens - when they are spent, they are simultaneously discarded. You seem to think there is some kinda gap between the spend and discard of the token where you can jump in with admonition and say 'wait, I'm gonna discard this token before I have to discard it'. That ain't the way it works bro, spending and discarding are in the same sequence step, not seperate. I'm not even sure why you would need to think it does, It's already a great upgrade! trying to play it that way is a bit cheesy man...

 

What are you trying to quote me on? I'm saying the EXACT same thing your saying...so where is the cheese???

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Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

This bro. Sequencing is pretty clear in the ruleboook for red defense tokens - when they are spent, they are simultaneously discarded. You seem to think there is some kinda gap between the spend and discard of the token where you can jump in with admonition and say 'wait, I'm gonna discard this token before I have to discard it'. That ain't the way it works bro, spending and discarding are in the same sequence step, not seperate. I'm not even sure why you would need to think it does, It's already a great upgrade! trying to play it that way is a bit cheesy man...

 

What are you trying to quote me on? I'm saying the EXACT same thing your saying...so where is the cheese???

Gk, you missed the "this bro" at the start. He was agreeing with you then launched a tirade at others who dont...

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Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

This bro. Sequencing is pretty clear in the ruleboook for red defense tokens - when they are spent, they are simultaneously discarded. You seem to think there is some kinda gap between the spend and discard of the token where you can jump in with admonition and say 'wait, I'm gonna discard this token before I have to discard it'. That ain't the way it works bro, spending and discarding are in the same sequence step, not seperate. I'm not even sure why you would need to think it does, It's already a great upgrade! trying to play it that way is a bit cheesy man...
 

What are you trying to quote me on? I'm saying the EXACT same thing your saying...so where is the cheese???

Gk, you missed the "this bro" at the start. He was agreeing with you then launched a tirade at others who dont...

 

I have been laughing at this for at least  15 minutes. Thank you for setting that straight Ginkapo! I am not laughing at anyone, just at the linguistic challenges people face every day. . . 

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Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

This bro. Sequencing is pretty clear in the ruleboook for red defense tokens - when they are spent, they are simultaneously discarded. You seem to think there is some kinda gap between the spend and discard of the token where you can jump in with admonition and say 'wait, I'm gonna discard this token before I have to discard it'. That ain't the way it works bro, spending and discarding are in the same sequence step, not seperate. I'm not even sure why you would need to think it does, It's already a great upgrade! trying to play it that way is a bit cheesy man...

What are you trying to quote me on? I'm saying the EXACT same thing your saying...so where is the cheese???

Gk, you missed the "this bro" at the start. He was agreeing with you then launched a tirade at others who dont...

I have been laughing at this for at least 15 minutes. Thank you for setting that straight Ginkapo! I am not laughing at anyone, just at the linguistic challenges people face every day. . .

woah, I was totally agreeing with you green knight dude! I was saying to try and double dip with the discard was cheesy.

Why don't we put and end to this one eh? Just got this back...

"Hi Jawa,

I’m happy to help!

The Admonition card cannot be resolved when a defense token is discarded as part of another effect (such as redirecting damage). This is because the card lists the discarding of a defense token as a cost to resolve the effect. If that defense token has already been discarded by another effect, it is no longer available to be discarded as the cost for Admonition.

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Board Game Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

jkniffen@fantasyflightgames.com"

Case closed dudes and dudettes

Edited by jawarollerdisco

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Quite the contrary: if you spend to discard...you cannot ALSO discard using Admo, because there is nothing there to discard anymore...its been, ya know, discarded already :D

This bro. Sequencing is pretty clear in the ruleboook for red defense tokens - when they are spent, they are simultaneously discarded. You seem to think there is some kinda gap between the spend and discard of the token where you can jump in with admonition and say 'wait, I'm gonna discard this token before I have to discard it'. That ain't the way it works bro, spending and discarding are in the same sequence step, not seperate. I'm not even sure why you would need to think it does, It's already a great upgrade! trying to play it that way is a bit cheesy man...

What are you trying to quote me on? I'm saying the EXACT same thing your saying...so where is the cheese???

Gk, you missed the "this bro" at the start. He was agreeing with you then launched a tirade at others who dont...
I have been laughing at this for at least 15 minutes. Thank you for setting that straight Ginkapo! I am not laughing at anyone, just at the linguistic challenges people face every day. . .
woah, I was totally agreeing with you green knight dude! I was saying to try and double dip with the discard was cheesy.

Why don't we put and end to this one eh? Just got this back...

"Hi Jawa,

I’m happy to help!

The Admonition card cannot be resolved when a defense token is discarded as part of another effect (such as redirecting damage). This is because the card lists the discarding of a defense token as a cost to resolve the effect. If that defense token has already been discarded by another effect, it is no longer available to be discarded as the cost for Admonition.

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Board Game Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

jkniffen@fantasyflightgames.com"

Case closed dudes and dudettes

Right! I couldn't for the life of me understand why you were 'disagreeing' with me :-D:-D:-D

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sorry for necroing the thread, but something was bugging me lately with Admo and redirect.

 

Say, for some unknown reason, I have a green redirect. I get hit by 3 double hits.

 

I say I spend the redirect to turn it red, then I can still discard it to cancel a die? Resulting in 4 dmg being redirected away?

 

This bugged me because, unlike Evade, redirect takes effect after the damage calculation took effect. It's the last defense effect to take place, so I kind of felt like you would "lose" the redirect effect.

 

edit: I say it out loud and realize it's kind of the same as discarding a red redirect by spending it again. No reason why you should "lose" the effect.

Edited by Sybreed

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Yeah, it works because the redirect effect doesn't require the redirect token to still be present when it resolves.  Yes, there is that time delay between spending it and the effect resolving, but it doesn't prevent the resolution if the token is gone.  Otherwise Intel Officer would be... much different.  :)

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The MC30 title card Admonition lets you:

"...during the Spend Sefense Tokens step, you may discard a Defense token to cancel one attack die."

So can I exhaust a token, gaining its effects, and then discard that token to cancel a die, all during the same attack?

 

YES!

 

(it's the whole point of the title)

 

 

I just played a game where my opponent said I couldn't use the same token twice during the same defense tokens step. Therefore, after spending an evade token to red, I had to discard another one to get the Admo effect. Who was wrong here?

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The MC30 title card Admonition lets you:

"...during the Spend Sefense Tokens step, you may discard a Defense token to cancel one attack die."

So can I exhaust a token, gaining its effects, and then discard that token to cancel a die, all during the same attack?

 

YES!

 

(it's the whole point of the title)

 

 

I just played a game where my opponent said I couldn't use the same token twice during the same defense tokens step. Therefore, after spending an evade token to red, I had to discard another one to get the Admo effect. Who was wrong here?

 

 

He was.

 

He's almost got the Rule correct...  He has stated it as "you cannot use"...   But in reality, the wording is, You cannot spend the same Token Twice.

 

Admonition is not spending the Token

 

It is discarding it.

 

A Subtle, but powerful, difference.

 

And, because Rules are always better (Bold, italic, underline highlight emphasis mine)

 

 

 

RRG, Page 4, "Defense Tokens":

• The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

 

• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

 

• Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

 

 

and of course:

Swm12_admonition.png

 

The Admonition card does not refer, or require, or even ask, you to Spend a Defense Token.

 

Only to Discard it.

 

 

 

 

QED.

 

(Because even philosophers enjoy saying "B****, PLEASE")

 

Edited by Drasnighta

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The MC30 title card Admonition lets you:

"...during the Spend Sefense Tokens step, you may discard a Defense token to cancel one attack die."

So can I exhaust a token, gaining its effects, and then discard that token to cancel a die, all during the same attack?

 

YES!

 

(it's the whole point of the title)

 

 

I just played a game where my opponent said I couldn't use the same token twice during the same defense tokens step. Therefore, after spending an evade token to red, I had to discard another one to get the Admo effect. Who was wrong here?

 

 

He was.

 

He's almost got the Rule correct...  He has stated it as "you cannot use"...   But in reality, the wording is, You cannot spend the same Token Twice.

 

Admonition is not spending the Token

 

It is discarding it.

 

A Subtle, but powerful, difference.

 

And, because Rules are always better (Bold, italic, underline highlight emphasis mine)

 

 

 

RRG, Page 4, "Defense Tokens":

• The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

 

• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

 

• Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

 

 

and of course:

Swm12_admonition.png

 

The Admonition card does not refer, or require, or even ask, you to Spend a Defense Token.

 

Only to Discard it.

 

 

 

 

QED.

 

(Because even philosophers enjoy saying "B****, PLEASE")

 

 

 

Aright. In the end it didn't really change the outcome of the match as we were in round 5 and still had my 2 evade tokens, but still, it's good to know. It makes admo a lot more powerful.

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