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Maturin

Admonition and discarding tokens

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The MC30 title card Admonition lets you:

"...during the Spend Sefense Tokens step, you may discard a Defense token to cancel one attack die."

So can I exhaust a token, gaining its effects, and then discard that token to cancel a die, all during the same attack?

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That was what I thought too. But as I was using it to survive a volley that otherwise would have blown me out of space, I still felt slightly dirty.

Still, not dirty enough to stop me from using it that way. These ships live and die by the skin of their chinny chin chin, so I'll take any advantage I can get. :)

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If you are at Long Range, and using an Evade, Admonition is as powerful as Foresight, with a Greater Drawback, for the Same Points cost.  So don't feel dirty.

 

 

Its Better at Close Range, where you don't get the Evade usage out of Foresight.

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That was what I thought too. But as I was using it to survive a volley that otherwise would have blown me out of space, I still felt slightly dirty.

Still, not dirty enough to stop me from using it that way. These ships live and die by the skin of their chinny chin chin, so I'll take any advantage I can get. :)

Yup, you spent the extra 8 points on a ship that spends its entire life on the edge of blowing up; you wring every last bit of value out of it that you can!

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This is the first explanation of Admonition that actually makes sense to me. Still not sure I feel it's worth the points, but I can see where it would be useful, at least. :)

Edited by Rythbryt

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I would assume it would bypass accuracy icons.  it has the same timing window as the effect of spent accuracy icons, but the token isn't being "spent".

 

Admonition has clicked now, that double usage in one attack makes it a lot better than I previously thought.

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So because he is a card effect can he superseded accuracy rolls and allow the token to be discarded regardless if it is targeted by an accuracy roll?

 

RRG, Page 2, "Attacking":

(underline emphasis mine)

3. Resolve Attack Effects: The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below: 

 

 Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects and the P command. 

◊ Spend Accuracy (G) Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its G icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack. 

 

4. Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.

 

 

 

Yes.  Accuracy Icons only stop you from Spending Defense Tokens during the Spend Defense Tokens Step.  Admonition allows you to Discard a Token, NOT spend it.  

 

Spend is not the same as Discard, however, Spending can result in discarding...  That does not make them the same.

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So because he is a card effect can he superseded accuracy rolls and allow the token to be discarded regardless if it is targeted by an accuracy roll?

 

RRG, Page 2, "Attacking":

(underline emphasis mine)

3. Resolve Attack Effects: The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below: 

 

 Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects and the P command. 

◊ Spend Accuracy (G) Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its G icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack. 

 

4. Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.

 

 

 

Yes.  Accuracy Icons only stop you from Spending Defense Tokens during the Spend Defense Tokens Step.  Admonition allows you to Discard a Token, NOT spend it.  

 

Spend is not the same as Discard, however, Spending can result in discarding...  That does not make them the same.

 

Thats what i thought too

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Now there's this also, that Dras pointed out in another thread:

FYI - "While Defending" is a "While" trigger, which lets you only discard a Single Defense Token, for a Single Removal of a Die...

I erred in my last game and spent a whole bunch of tokens at once. :( Apologies Iskander4000!

Ok, thanks everyone - I understand the benefits and limitations of this card much better now!

Edited by Maturin

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Something important people are forgetting:

on page 4 of the rules reference under Defense tokens, last bullet point:

 

"Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect"

 

therefore, with admonition, the "cost" of the upgrade card effect IS discarding the token. Therefore, you cannot resolve its "normal effect"

 

This came up in a tourney on the weekend and to me it seems pretty straight forward.

 

I was shooting a Firespray into an unshielded MC30 with 1 token (unspent redirect) and 1 hit left and I rolled 2 crits. He wanted to both exhaust his defense token to redirect 1 damage and then discard it for admonition, which in my interpretation and given the above rule which seems to be written pretty clearly, the COST of the upgrade card was paid and therefore it couldn't be used in its normal manner. I also think there is an attack resolution stack issue with doing it this way as well but I haven't traced it through. I can see where there could be another interpretation but I have a strong feeling this might be something that gets FAQd otherwise the Admonition upgrade is a bit OP.

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I disagree.  There's two Effects there.

He's Spending the Redirect first.

Then he's Spending the Redirect with a discard for Admonition...

If it were stacking (what the rule you quoted is avoiding is this:)


Spend Evade (Spend Token) - Discard One Dice

Discard Evade (Admonition) - Discard One Dice because I spent an Evade Token and then Discard One Dice because I Admonitioned it...

Which would be THREE Dice gone in one turn. 

WHich is Wrong.

 

 

Two Dice is the limit.

 

It Also stops the Mon Mothma Double Evade.

Edited by Drasnighta

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i think the crux of the matter lies in the interpretation of the "cost" of the upgrade card. My contention is that the COST of the upgrade card is the token. Therefore by the letter of the law it cannot resolve its normal effect.

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As a Roundabout - I'd look at the Relative "Power", for lack of a better term, between Admonition and Foresight, as both 8 point Upgrade Cards...

 

Foresight turns an Evade into 2 Deleted Dice.  It only works while there's Evade Range.

 

At long Range, Admonition turns one Evade into 2 Deleted Dice, at the cost of discarding that defense token as well.  

 

 

 

That puts Foresight a little ahead.

 

Then, when you pull into Close Range, Foresight's Deleting Dice ability is nullified, but it still has the redirect tweak.

 

At Close Range, Admonition turns one Evade into 1 Deleted Dice, at the cost of Discarding that defense token.

 

 

That puts Admonition a little ahead.

 

Conclusion.  They're both roughly balanced on opportunity costs, as well as points costs, at those ranges.  Ergo, penalising one rather than the other would expose an inherent imbalance that isn't intended.

 

And I agree.  You disagree with my point of view, as I disagree with yours.  I merely feel the full context of the rules quotes are in my favour.

 

Especially:

 

RRG, Effects and timing, Page 5  

• If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.

 

Ergo, during the Spend Defense Tokens step, I have two effects that I can do...  Both Spend a Defense Token (which is part of the core rules), and then the Admonition effect.

 

As long as I choose to actually spend defense Tokens First, then I can spend it.  Then, with Admonition, I can Discard it.

 

As has been discussed previously...  Spend =/= Discard.

Spending can result in Discarding, but Spending is Spending, and Discarding is Discarding.

 

The Rule you have quoted states SPENDING.  I am not Spending the Token for the Upgrade Card's Effect...  I am Discarding it.

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i think the crux of the matter lies in the interpretation of the "cost" of the upgrade card. My contention is that the COST of the upgrade card is the token. Therefore by the letter of the law it cannot resolve its normal effect.

 

The cost is the discarding effect, not spending it.  "Spend" and "discard" are separate, defined game terms and are not interchangeable.  Discarding a token is not the same as spending it.

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Indeed. The rule Hastiator quotes prevents an ability like Vader's or TRC's from producing both the card effect and the usual token effect when spending it.

 

If Admonition required spending of the token (which, as pointed out above, it doesn't) another, more fundamental rule would kick in:

 

RRG p.4, Defense Tokens:

A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

 

So you could not spend a readied (green) defense token for its usual effect, then spend it again with Admonition (triggering a discard because it was already exhausted), because that would be spending it twice.

 

However, Admonition requires discarding of the token, which:

 

1) does not constitute a "spending", so the rule quoted by me does not kick in

2) does not produce any "normal" effect, so the rule quoted by Hastiator does not kick in

 

What's happening here are two separate, unrelated events:

 

i)  A token is being spent by the defender for its normal effect

ii) A token is being discarded by Admonition for that card's special effect

 

The above tokens may or may not be the same one. None of the rules quoted so far prevent the same token from being chosen, because the conditions simply aren't met.

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You guys are focusing on the "spend" wording, with very much applying your own context to the word, which I understand, however you are completely ignoring the "cost" part of the wording, because it doesn't suit with what you already decided should be how it works, which is fine.

 

Personally, I sent it in as a rules clarification and I have a strong feeling it simply requires an FAQing to set straight. I'm sure if I was a rebel player I would be right there with you being a rules lawyer for the other interpretation :)

 

As for balance being an argument for how a card should work...well...lol you don't want to open THAT can of worms.

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Why is there an FAQ needed though? I don't get it. It seems simple enough.

If you spend an exhausted defense token do you get the effect still? Why yes you do.

So with Admonition you can spend a token to use its ability which is now placed in the right area and them you can activate Admonition to discard the same token.

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Seriously between this and the Devestator thread I'm really begining to question how badly various groups must misplay the rules for this game.

Drasnighta laid this out as clearly as it's ever going to be laid out for anyone.

Spending a defense token and discarding a defense token are two different game terms. They do not mean the same thing. The qouted rule in regards being able to spend tokens as apart of an upgrade card cost and not also getting it's normal effect doesn't even apply in this situation as the effect in question does no have you spend but discard a defense token. Again, spending and discarding a defense token are two different game terms.

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Seriously between this and the Devestator thread I'm really begining to question how badly various groups must misplay the rules for this game.

Drasnighta laid this out as clearly as it's ever going to be laid out for anyone.

Spending a defense token and discarding a defense token are two different game terms. They do not mean the same thing. The qouted rule in regards being able to spend tokens as apart of an upgrade card cost and not also getting it's normal effect doesn't even apply in this situation as the effect in question does no have you spend but discard a defense token. Again, spending and discarding a defense token are two different game terms.

I think people get confused because you can wind up discarding a defense token as a cost of spending it.

Regardless, I too have begun to wonder just what wild permutations of Armada have evolved in the wild...

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Seriously between this and the Devestator thread I'm really begining to question how badly various groups must misplay the rules for this game.

Drasnighta laid this out as clearly as it's ever going to be laid out for anyone.

Spending a defense token and discarding a defense token are two different game terms. They do not mean the same thing. The qouted rule in regards being able to spend tokens as apart of an upgrade card cost and not also getting it's normal effect doesn't even apply in this situation as the effect in question does no have you spend but discard a defense token. Again, spending and discarding a defense token are two different game terms.

 

Hey good job being demeaning and condescending!

 

Here's a free hint on not being a tool: If the rules were written perfectly and clearly they would not ever need any sort of FAQ or errata, yet here we have several pages of them and an entire sub-forum where people still have questions on interpretations.

 

I guess you are so amazing that you never wanted official confirmation on something before you take some internet posters opinion as cannon. Good for you!

Your medal and cookie are in the mail!

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The rules could say 2+2=4 and someone somewhere would say no they really meant 3.

Just because you can find that person does not mean every rules question requires an FAQ to settle the matter. And it certainly is going to give me pause about what else that player is misplay in within the rules.

The rules are not written perfectly, but that doesn't mean that every portion of it you personally don't understand is unclear. It just means you don't understand it. If you don't understand something, then ask. Plenty of people will take thier time to break it down for you.

You had it explained to you, clearly and with a lot of patience by other posters. You continue to ignore the crux of what those posters are telling you.

So if you really want to continue the thread then I am going to put a very simple question to you.

Are spending and discarding a defense token the same thing?

Edited by ScottieATF

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