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Semmel2

Pierce and Shields question

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Hi.

I have a question about using Pierce when the targeted hero has a Shield.

The rule book says that Shields are not affected by Pierce, but does that mean that Shields can be used to counter Pierce?

The example in the book is not fully clear to me, so I hope someone can give me a definite answer on this example:

A hero has Armor 2 and has a Shield that cancels 4 wounds. He is attacked by a Hellhound who does 4 wounds with Pierce 3.

If the hero does not have any Shield, (if I understand correctly), you basically "remove" 3 armor (Pierce 3) and then dish out the wounds, so the hero takes 4 wounds as if he didn't have armor, done. (Right?)

With Shield, you would distract the 2 regular Armor points because of Pierce, but what now? Do the 4 points of Shield counter Pierce and block all 4 wounds?

If the hero has Armor 5 and no Shield, then only 3 wounds go through. If the hero has Armor 5 and Shield 1, does that reduce the damage to 2 wounds?

I guess nothing else really makes sense, but the whole Pierce thing is still not 100% clear in my head - I think I need a more practical approach in explaining exactly how Pierce works. Am I right in my understanding that in order to calculate wounds when Pierce is involved you "remove" as much armor as Pierce points in that attack and then take the wounds off the hero's hit points?

Thanks!

 

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semmel said:

Hi.

I have a question about using Pierce when the targeted hero has a Shield.

The rule book says that Shields are not affected by Pierce, but does that mean that Shields can be used to counter Pierce?

The example in the book is not fully clear to me, so I hope someone can give me a definite answer on this example:

A hero has Armor 2 and has a Shield that cancels 4 wounds. He is attacked by a Hellhound who does 4 wounds with Pierce 3.

If the hero does not have any Shield, (if I understand correctly), you basically "remove" 3 armor (Pierce 3) and then dish out the wounds, so the hero takes 4 wounds as if he didn't have armor, done. (Right?)

With Shield, you would distract the 2 regular Armor points because of Pierce, but what now? Do the 4 points of Shield counter Pierce and block all 4 wounds?

If the hero has Armor 5 and no Shield, then only 3 wounds go through. If the hero has Armor 5 and Shield 1, does that reduce the damage to 2 wounds?

I guess nothing else really makes sense, but the whole Pierce thing is still not 100% clear in my head - I think I need a more practical approach in explaining exactly how Pierce works. Am I right in my understanding that in order to calculate wounds when Pierce is involved you "remove" as much armor as Pierce points in that attack and then take the wounds off the hero's hit points?

Thanks!

 

You are hitting a commonly made mistake that people make with Shields and Pierce.  The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

You first example is right.  The Pierce 3 reduces the Armor to zero, and the hero takes 4 wounds.

In the second one with the shield, you again reudce the armor to zero, the hero takes 4 wounds, and then chooses to uses the shield cancels the wounds.  It does nothing to the Pierce.

You example with Armor 5 is wrong.  Armor 5 - Pierce 3 = Armor 2.  On an attack that does 4 damage, the hero gets 2 wounds.  If that same hero has a shield that cancels 4 wounds, he will still take 2 wounds and then has to choose to use the shield or not to cancel the 2 wounds.  Plus, there is no such things as Shield 1, Shield items do not have ranks.

The easiest thing to remember is this: Pierce is applied to armor, and armor only.  You subtract the Pierce ranks from your Armor value and this is your new armor value.  If you have Armor 5, and get hit with a Pierce 3 attack, you have Armor 2 now.

Shield don't come into play until after wounds have been dealt, which is after the application of armor.  Again, the two have nothing to do with each other and do not in any way directly interact.

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Big Remy said:

Plus, there is no such things as Shield 1, Shield items do not have ranks.

Formally, no.  Informally, they totally do.  Especially in the base game, where all shields have wounds canceled = treasure level and are otherwise exactly identical.

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Big Remy said:

 

You are hitting a commonly made mistake that people make with Shields and Pierce.  The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

You first example is right.  The Pierce 3 reduces the Armor to zero, and the hero takes 4 wounds.

In the second one with the shield, you again reudce the armor to zero, the hero takes 4 wounds, and then chooses to uses the shield cancels the wounds.  It does nothing to the Pierce.

You example with Armor 5 is wrong.  Armor 5 - Pierce 3 = Armor 2.  On an attack that does 4 damage, the hero gets 2 wounds.  If that same hero has a shield that cancels 4 wounds, he will still take 2 wounds and then has to choose to use the shield or not to cancel the 2 wounds.  Plus, there is no such things as Shield 1, Shield items do not have ranks.

The easiest thing to remember is this: Pierce is applied to armor, and armor only.  You subtract the Pierce ranks from your Armor value and this is your new armor value.  If you have Armor 5, and get hit with a Pierce 3 attack, you have Armor 2 now.

Shield don't come into play until after wounds have been dealt, which is after the application of armor.  Again, the two have nothing to do with each other and do not in any way directly interact.

However, shields cannot cancel wounds that ignore armour, and Peirce does just that. How can you rationalize that you can use shields vs Peirce?
 

The Janitor

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Big Remy said:

 

Because Pierce does not ignore armor, it reduces armor.

 

 

From the rulebook:

Pierce
An attack with the Pierce ability ignores 1 point of
armor for each rank of Pierce it has. Thus, an attack
with Pierce 3 ignores 3 points of armor. Shields are not
affected by the Pierce ability

 

My argument lost a lot of steam as soon as I copied this.  But at least I was right about it ignoring armourcool.gif

 

The Janitor

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Big Remy said:


@Antistone: Really? You're going to invent ranks now for shields solely for arguments sake?

 

 

 

 

I only mean that it can be used as a convenient shorthand in discussion with little chance of misunderstanding. Kind of like the monster tiers:  there's no rule separating monsters into four tiers, but there's a very clear natural grouping, and it's convenient to refer to them in discussion.
 

The Janitor said:

 

 

However, shields cannot cancel wounds that ignore armour, and Peirce does just that. How can you rationalize that you can use shields vs Peirce?

 

 

Descent's not real good with precise terminology, but "ignores armor" is a special phrase used in many places with a consistent meaning.  Pierce does not use that exact phrase, and from the description it's clear that its effect is very different.

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Overlord999 said:

"Shields are not affected by the Pierce ability"

Here is how we play it (not RtL ) When a hero has a shield the Pierce ability has no effect.

Just so I'm understanding right...if a hero has a shield equipped, no attack against him have Pierce?  Which, while you are completely free to house rule it how you like, is most definitely not the RAW.

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