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The M3-A Scyk can not be fixed!!!!

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Scyk Scyk

title

After you are destroyed, before you are removed from the play area, you may deploy a Scyk. It may not attack this round.

0 Points

 

Fixed for all eternity

It reminds me

But still, scyk is JUST missing a boost icon.

 

It's the easiest and simplest solution to the question "Why is it so DERPy"

 

If it has one, it eqips an qutothruster, adding to survivability at Range 3 as a ManglerSNiper, gets some use as a blocker, and stops dying horrible horrible death the first turn it sees something

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There are exactly 2 things that went wrong when designing the Scyk:

1) They made it less powerful than a Tie-Ln for some weird reason. At 13 points it would have been reasonable as a standalone fighter. 1 point for TL plus a shield is reasonable. At 14 points it is overcosted. When speculations went on the first thing i said was that i hope for 13 points. But no, it was 14. 2 points over a Tie fighter are just absolutely not justified. For what? In that price range of swarmy ships, 1 point overcosted is actually a lot worse than if you have a 30 point ship that is overcosted by 1 point. It represents a much larger percentage paid too much on every ship you take. It would perhaps have been 14 points with Boost giving AT acces. But you know how we call a decent cheap ship with AT access... A-Wing

2) The title not being free was a huge mistake. The access to an equipment is only worth points in a few cases. Namely when there are powerful synergies going on. For example giving the Tie Defender a systems slot would be worth a couple of points (if the ship was not already overcosted). But gaining a torp or missile slot? Thats worth nothing at all. The cannon slot is the only usable one, and even that is too expensive at 2 points on an already overpriced fragile ship.

So the Scyk is already the cheapest cannon ship. It's just far from cheap enough. 13 points and a cannon slot would have been the sweet spot for competitive play. 5 HLCs? Probably a powerful squad. There would perhaps even have been 'nerf it' shouts in that case...

Edited by ForceM

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Exactly, make it any cheaper and it might easily be OP.

The only adjustments I'd make as I said are reducing points on the base model and taxing them on the title.

 

Considering the most efficient jousting ships in the game right now aren't the ships that are dominating, I don't think a point off the Scyk will make it "easily overpowered."    HLC Scyks have exactly the same weakness that you hear people discuss with Dash and TLTs with the added fact that they are limited to a forward arc and, of course, are on a glass cannon. 

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If you are going to give it a title, it needs more than just a single point reduction, and an illicit slot seems to be the best option to me. The Heavy Scyk card should come with something like an additional modification slot for those 2 points.

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I've stated that it could use a little something.  Doesn't have to be Boost.  What I don't like is people bashing a ship when it's really not that bad.  Too many people try one or two times and then bag it on the internet.  Not enough actually try it.  I was just reading a thread where I guy won a local tournament (with some national level players) with a Tie Defender.  Yeah, another ship everyone says isn't worth the points.  I just think too many people just dismiss it without trying. 

 

It sounds like you want to just shut down all discussion by telling people with a different opinion that they're people who don't know anything and need to put in enormous amounts of play into a ship before they can post.  That there should be no negative opinions about any ships on the internet, just a bunch of people patting each other and Alex Davy on the back about how aesome everything is.

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  It's page 7 of a thread and I'm not letting people discuss things?  I don't mind discussion on the ship, but there are some people on this thread that only post how it sucks and nothing can be done about it.  In fact, the thread title is how it can't be fixed.  Mostly what I've seen is people talking about how it sucks or wanting to design fixes for it.  Few people are having an actual discussion on it.  

 

If you re-read what I wrote, I stated how I don't like how people play a ship once or twice and then declare it horrible.  There are many people on these forums who declare that the Scyk, Starviper, and Tie Defender are near worthless ships that should never be played in serious games.  I merely suggest that it's not so bad.  I recommend people actually fly the ships more than a couple times and make up their own mind.  I don't think that's so bad and I'm sorry you get the impression that I'm forcing my opinion down people's throats.

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Chadwick, i tried it, and i had a friend that tried it on several tournaments. The results were pretty bad. I can't see any way you can equip it or any pilot or special tactics on it that make it more worthwile. It's like a few other ships which are playable in a really friendly environment, but as soon as you have anything remotely competitive on the other side, it really falls apart.

So if a large chunk of our forum users agree on this, it's not as if nobody tried it, it's probably just not a good ship and there is no equipment or synergy that makes it work. Or by now someone would have made it work. It came out a long time ago after all.

So asking for some fixing to be done on the ship is all that is left. There are probably even worse ships around though.

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Yes, The TIE FO needs a boost native too, as does the E-wing. Boost on everything.!!!!

 

 

Or we can make minor ass adjustments rather than making all the ships the same?

Tie FO already got nice BUMP for the 3 point extra from TIE-LN

And still, know what? people still don't use it, because at Swarms price-range 3 points is HUGE DEAL.

 

and Tie FO doesn't have "interceptor" in it's name.

and wins in both maneuverability AND jousting efficiency.

Anything else you can say here?

 

or the "don't like it don't use it" is the cap of proposal?

You are right. NOBODY uses them. It's like HWK with autoblaster or aN R2D2 Y-wing.

Not_happening_if_you_use_brains_when_building_roster. because it's INFERIOR. It has no niche of it's own.

And it's outclassed at all others.

Edited by Warpman

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Yes, The TIE FO needs a boost native too, as does the E-wing. Boost on everything.!!!!

 

 

Or we can make minor ass adjustments rather than making all the ships the same?

Tie FO already got nice BUMP for the 3 point extra from TIE-LN

And still, know what? people still don't use it, because at Swarms price-range 3 points is HUGE DEAL.

 

and Tie FO doesn't have "interceptor" in it's name.

and wins in both maneuverability AND jousting efficiency.

Anything else you can say here?

 

or the "don't like it don't use it" is the cap of proposal?

You are right. NOBODY uses them. It's like HWK with autoblaster or aN R2D2 Y-wing.

Not_happening_if_you_use_brains_when_building_roster. because it's INFERIOR. It has no niche of it's own.

And it's outclassed at all others.

Hold up why is R2 on a Y-Wing stupid?

That sounds pretty awesome.

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Yes, The TIE FO needs a boost native too, as does the E-wing. Boost on everything.!!!!

 

 

Or we can make minor ass adjustments rather than making all the ships the same?

Tie FO already got nice BUMP for the 3 point extra from TIE-LN

And still, know what? people still don't use it, because at Swarms price-range 3 points is HUGE DEAL.

 

and Tie FO doesn't have "interceptor" in it's name.

and wins in both maneuverability AND jousting efficiency.

Anything else you can say here?

 

or the "don't like it don't use it" is the cap of proposal?

You are right. NOBODY uses them. It's like HWK with autoblaster or aN R2D2 Y-wing.

Not_happening_if_you_use_brains_when_building_roster. because it's INFERIOR. It has no niche of it's own.

And it's outclassed at all others.

Hold up why is R2 on a Y-Wing stupid?

That sounds pretty awesome.

 

very limited selection of green manuvers for R2-D2 to work with

 

The generic R2 astomech is very valuable for the y-wing though

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Yes, The TIE FO needs a boost native too, as does the E-wing. Boost on everything.!!!!

 

 

Or we can make minor ass adjustments rather than making all the ships the same?

Tie FO already got nice BUMP for the 3 point extra from TIE-LN

And still, know what? people still don't use it, because at Swarms price-range 3 points is HUGE DEAL.

 

and Tie FO doesn't have "interceptor" in it's name.

and wins in both maneuverability AND jousting efficiency.

Anything else you can say here?

 

or the "don't like it don't use it" is the cap of proposal?

You are right. NOBODY uses them. It's like HWK with autoblaster or aN R2D2 Y-wing.

Not_happening_if_you_use_brains_when_building_roster. because it's INFERIOR. It has no niche of it's own.

And it's outclassed at all others.

Hold up why is R2 on a Y-Wing stupid?

That sounds pretty awesome.

very limited selection of green manuvers for R2-D2 to work with

 

The generic R2 astomech is very valuable for the y-wing though

Oh, right. The dial.

I often forget about that.

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Here's from my experience playing with them...

 

I did a Kavil, Palob, +2 Scyk's w/ Manglers. The Scyk's came in as flankers. Most people I played against ignored the scyk's, instead going after juicer targets such as Palob or the higher threat of Kavil. They performed well, but aren't "tournament" winners. At least not by me.

 

I didn't joust with them and I tried to keep them at range 3. In games where I saw people putting HLC's on Syck's, they would usually be targeted and destroyed fairly quickly. Too many points on a ship that can't arc dodge.

 

I am definitely in favor of a series of title cards for each type of ship and one for the non-heavy scyk. Maybe a -1 pt Charrdaan refit with a special ability such as free target lock for missiles, free focus for torps, 1 blank for cannons becomes a hit and +1 agility & boost (or push the limit) for the naked scyk. Just some ideas.

 

Flying a scyk reminds me of when people play a fat han and have Z's or the BBBBZ combo. The Z isn't the main threat, but if you aren't careful, that little ship can keep pecking at you enough to make a difference in the game.

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Here's my fixes for the M3-A, and what I would have made them at launch. I may tweak these slightly before I add them to my public House Rules when I finally get around to updating them.

  • PS2: Cost reduced from 14 to 13.
  • PS5: Cost reduced from 17 to 16.
  • Ashera: Cost increased from 18 to 19 and ability changed to: "The first time you defend each round, you may add one evade result to your roll."
  • Heavy Syck title: cost increased from 2 to 3, but also adds +1 Hull.

 

 

 

 

They're not overpowered neither at 23 nor would they be overpowered at 21.

Still a glass cannon.

 

it has no versatility it boasts about.

It's not a swarmer, not a blocker.

 

All it can do is be a pest-troll.

Who dies horribly the moment it gets a glance from a foe.

As I understand it, in playtesting they WERE overpowered at 21.  They tried 22 as well, but found with hull upgrade, 4 cartel spacers w/ HLC (at 25 apiece) was just too good.  That's the reason they cost as they do.

 

Alex Davy mentioned he wanted to give them 1 straight to make up for the slightly higher cost, but it didn't happen in time or some such. 

 

So it is what it is.  Slightly overcosted yes, but given how tight costing has to be in this game, generally erring on the side of caution is better than the alternative, so can't really blame them for that.  In the meantime, its not a bad ship.  I've been having fun with it and some success too, and if it eventually gets an official 'fix', I'll be even happier!

 

 

As per the Playtester NDA, playtesters are not supposed to say anything about what goes on in playtesting, so I'll take that comment with a grain of salt.

 

That said, X-wing playtesting has not historically been very good at predicting balance / cost issues correctly.

 

I strongly disagree with any conclusion that the M3-A + title + HLC + Hull would be overpowered at 25 points. If it were actually overpowered at 25 points, then at 26 points you would see it sprinkled into existing lists. Think 2x TLT Y's and 2x HLC M3-As. But you don't see this, because the M3-A is terrible in any form. If they were worried about 4x of them hitting 100 points exactly with Hull Upgrade, there are other solutions (see above).

 

 

 

Exactly, make it any cheaper and it might easily be OP.

The only adjustments I'd make as I said are reducing points on the base model and taxing them on the title.

 

Considering the most efficient jousting ships in the game right now aren't the ships that are dominating, I don't think a point off the Scyk will make it "easily overpowered."    HLC Scyks have exactly the same weakness that you hear people discuss with Dash and TLTs with the added fact that they are limited to a forward arc and, of course, are on a glass cannon. 

 

 

Agreed. Related to this, Twin Laser Turret is killing "vanilla" generic ships (no wave 7 upgrades attached) because the TLT Y-wing's jousting efficiency is so high (for a turret) that it's very easy for it to have a net effectiveness that is in excess of the previous best jousting ships in the game. TLT should have been 7 points. With TLT at 6 points the Y-wings are now the new best jousters. About 50% of all points spent in the Top 32 at Worlds were on generics (just like last year), but the difference is that "vanilla" generics only made up 12.5% of points spent.

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Yes, The TIE FO needs a boost native too, as does the E-wing. Boost on everything.!!!!

 

 

Or we can make minor ass adjustments rather than making all the ships the same?

Tie FO already got nice BUMP for the 3 point extra from TIE-LN

And still, know what? people still don't use it, because at Swarms price-range 3 points is HUGE DEAL.

 

and Tie FO doesn't have "interceptor" in it's name.

and wins in both maneuverability AND jousting efficiency.

Anything else you can say here?

 

or the "don't like it don't use it" is the cap of proposal?

You are right. NOBODY uses them. It's like HWK with autoblaster or aN R2D2 Y-wing.

Not_happening_if_you_use_brains_when_building_roster. because it's INFERIOR. It has no niche of it's own.

And it's outclassed at all others.

 

Hold up why is R2 on a Y-Wing stupid?

IT AIN'T...

That sounds pretty awesome.

IT IS!

 

 

:D

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I've stated that it could use a little something.  Doesn't have to be Boost.  What I don't like is people bashing a ship when it's really not that bad.  Too many people try one or two times and then bag it on the internet.  Not enough actually try it.  I was just reading a thread where I guy won a local tournament (with some national level players) with a Tie Defender.  Yeah, another ship everyone says isn't worth the points.  I just think too many people just dismiss it without trying. 

 

It sounds like you want to just shut down all discussion by telling people with a different opinion that they're people who don't know anything and need to put in enormous amounts of play into a ship before they can post.  That there should be no negative opinions about any ships on the internet, just a bunch of people patting each other and Alex Davy on the back about how aesome everything is.

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  It's page 7 of a thread and I'm not letting people discuss things?  I don't mind discussion on the ship, but there are some people on this thread that only post how it sucks and nothing can be done about it.  In fact, the thread title is how it can't be fixed.  Mostly what I've seen is people talking about how it sucks or wanting to design fixes for it.  Few people are having an actual discussion on it.  

 

If you re-read what I wrote, I stated how I don't like how people play a ship once or twice and then declare it horrible.  There are many people on these forums who declare that the Scyk, Starviper, and Tie Defender are near worthless ships that should never be played in serious games.  I merely suggest that it's not so bad.  I recommend people actually fly the ships more than a couple times and make up their own mind.  I don't think that's so bad and I'm sorry you get the impression that I'm forcing my opinion down people's throats.

 

 

In this case "Bad" is based off what it can do, how much it cost to do it, and what are the other options. Yes people sometimes bash something unfairly in any given game system, but just as often you'll have someone that zealously defends a bemoaned rule or game piece with no explanation as to why it is in fact "not bad".

 

If you think we're unfairly bashing the ship then explain what is actually good about it, because it's not that effective naked, and the cost of properly arming it with a cannon and/or modification bring it up to the price range of ships that are simply better in terms of raw stats and ability.

 

I do agree that boost is perhaps over used, but AT's are just that good, and any ship that is both fragile and middling cost needs some way to mitigate damage.

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I've stated that it could use a little something.  Doesn't have to be Boost.  What I don't like is people bashing a ship when it's really not that bad.  Too many people try one or two times and then bag it on the internet.  Not enough actually try it.  I was just reading a thread where I guy won a local tournament (with some national level players) with a Tie Defender.  Yeah, another ship everyone says isn't worth the points.  I just think too many people just dismiss it without trying. 

 

It sounds like you want to just shut down all discussion by telling people with a different opinion that they're people who don't know anything and need to put in enormous amounts of play into a ship before they can post.  That there should be no negative opinions about any ships on the internet, just a bunch of people patting each other and Alex Davy on the back about how aesome everything is.

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  It's page 7 of a thread and I'm not letting people discuss things?  I don't mind discussion on the ship, but there are some people on this thread that only post how it sucks and nothing can be done about it.  In fact, the thread title is how it can't be fixed.  Mostly what I've seen is people talking about how it sucks or wanting to design fixes for it.  Few people are having an actual discussion on it.  

 

If you re-read what I wrote, I stated how I don't like how people play a ship once or twice and then declare it horrible.  There are many people on these forums who declare that the Scyk, Starviper, and Tie Defender are near worthless ships that should never be played in serious games.  I merely suggest that it's not so bad.  I recommend people actually fly the ships more than a couple times and make up their own mind.  I don't think that's so bad and I'm sorry you get the impression that I'm forcing my opinion down people's throats.

 

 

In this case "Bad" is based off what it can do, how much it cost to do it, and what are the other options. Yes people sometimes bash something unfairly in any given game system, but just as often you'll have someone that zealously defends a bemoaned rule or game piece with no explanation as to why it is in fact "not bad".

 

If you think we're unfairly bashing the ship then explain what is actually good about it, because it's not that effective naked, and the cost of properly arming it with a cannon and/or modification bring it up to the price range of ships that are simply better in terms of raw stats and ability.

 

I do agree that boost is perhaps over used, but AT's are just that good, and any ship that is both fragile and middling cost needs some way to mitigate damage.

 

Boost is overused, mostle because it's super effective for both Aces (arcdodge, Range dancing) and for low-skill because blocking is an essential part.

More than just that, it allows you to equip TEH AUTOTHRUSTERS, that are a fine tool at mitigating damage and DERPing the hordes of turrets in meta.

 

And Scyk pricing indicates it had boost in mind, because that way it's ideally adequate.

It's a cousin of an A-wing, slower, flimsier, less greens, but 1 point cheaper and can barrel roll.

 

But without it? Just plainly not worth the time.

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Then what if there was another mitigating ability that fed off of barrel roll? I agree that AT is huge, but it's on boost ships for a reason, not all ships should have it.

 

As I often say, the fix for the syck should be minor and subtle. Worth no more than a full point.

What if - if you make a barrel roll, you gain +1 agi dice? can only be taken on small base ships when they barrel roll?

 

Well, do that and suddenly the Empire dominate the meta. Make it a scum only...? Possibly. Could be combined with EH to do interesting things.

 

I guess my point is, when looking at a fix. Look at what the syck does and what it already has. Not with what you just want to pile onto it.

 

I swear Warpman, you'd have the Syck with 5 agility dice, a free turbolaser, and 6 hull/shield, for 12 points.

That's not what the Syck is about. It's a cheap ass hutt ship made by Mandelmotors. Interceptor is a misnomer, it was never especially fast. Heavy Syck was a huge, HUGE update over the syck in SWG - the ships source materiel.

 

Now, I will admit that each ship from SWG so far has not exactly been true to the source, the Khirazx, was a 40k mass ship you could barely put shields/guns on. So making it like an 85k mass x-wing was inappropriate. The Deci... felt a lot more fragile than 12 hull would admit in SWG. The Heavy syck was a decent ship at 90K mass which you could plonk a good engine, shields AND guns on, even having the room for ablative armour.

 

Original syck.... 12k mass, F all room for anything, it was a starter ship like the Z-95 and TIE Light duty.

An alternate take would be to strip down targeting computer, and the points, then make it a TIE by any other name... 12 points, different dial.

I'm glad they didn't do that, that'd be boring.

Edited by DariusAPB

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