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Rithrin

Why all the Automated Protocols hype?

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To be fair you don't really want an CR-90 to do boost and barrel rolls.

Which is why I have said, repeatedly

Huge ships should have a global rule that they can't boost or barrel roll anyway,

So,

Add that rule

Change the other rule to huge ship can't get free actions from other ships, but can from itself

And then the only free action huge ships would be able to do is the one from Automated Protocols

It's simple,it's straightforward, it allows AP to work, but doesn't enable anything else, and it opens up a bunch of design space for future cards.

The only potential issue is that such a solution does allow corvettes to do both defensive actions. So, the question is, does FFG think that would be a problem?

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The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. 

It's ALWAYS on the same part of the ship.

 

And now they shall do BOTH. It's not helping the transports it's buffing corvettes

 

 

Change the other rule to huge ship can't get free actions from other ships, but can from itself

And then the only free action huge ships would be able to do is the one from Automated Protocols

The only potential issue is that such a solution does allow corvettes to do both defensive actions. So, the question is, does FFG think that would be a problem?

 

This might block future crew members that let you do free actions...

Edited by Warpman

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The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. 

It's ALWAYS on the same part of the ship.

 

And now they shall do BOTH. It's not helping the transports it's buffing corvettes

 

no because it removes one section of action bars. Here is the card. Read it again. Especially the part that say NOT.

automated-protocols.png

Now look at the cards for the Raider and the CR-90, more in particular the ones with the mentioned actions

imperial-raider-cards.jpgcr90-corvette-aft.png

Rules are 1 action per section. So if they use the action bar for both sections then Adv protocols won't be triggered because they already performed either a reinforced or recover. Unless they resolved a crew action which would neither be reinforce or recover actions.

 

So the CR-90 without the upgrade would be able to perform an action from its fore section (or rear for the Raider) then perform either a reinforce or recover upgrade with the other section. Compare this to the GR-75/Gozanti.

gr75-02.pngswx35-gozanti-class-cruiser.png

As you see they only have one ship/section card so they can only perform one action without the adv protocols upgrade. They could do a reinforce just like a Raider or CR-90 but they cannot make another action unlike the CR-90 or raider. Advanced protocols allows them to be able to make a reinforce or recover action after say a coordinate action just like a raider or CR-90.

 

Now since modifications affect both sides of the ship the only way you can use adv protocols for the corvettes with any effect is to perform an action with a crew or upgrade that is not a reinforce or recover. In other words corvettes cannot perform both the reinforce and recover action in the same action step. There are others that argue a timing loophole permits that, I still say it won't but again the only people that can say who is right on that argument is FFG and it won't be until close to the Gozanti release.

Edited by Marinealver

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Cannot a corvette do a Reinforce action with the fore section, then do a Coordinate with the aft section, trigger Automated Protocols, then do a free Recover action? When you are allowed to do a free action, you don't need to have that icon in your action bar, right? You just need to be able to do the action at all (that is, not being explicitly forbidden to do so by some rule).

Edited by Azrapse

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The card does not say that you can not have performed either of those actions, it quite explicitly is saying that the action that is triggering it cannot be one of those two actions.

If there were a hypothetical card that said

"After you perform an action that is not a barrel roll action, you may perform a free boost action"

And you put that card on Vader, he would unquestionably be able to focus, perform the free boost and then barrel roll. (Or even barrel roll, focus and then do the free boost)

The two base huge ships are doing the exact same thing, the EXACT SAME THING, just with different actions.

Edited by Forgottenlore

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The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. 

It's ALWAYS on the same part of the ship.

 

And now they shall do BOTH. It's not helping the transports it's buffing corvettes

 

no because it removes one section of action bars. Here is the card. Read it again. Especially the part that say NOT.

 

 

Now look at the cards for the Raider and the CR-90, more in particular the ones with the mentioned actions

 

Rules are 1 action per section. So if they use the action bar for both sections then Adv protocols won't be triggered because they already performed either a reinforced or recover. Unless they resolved a crew action which would neither be reinforce or recover actions.

 

So the CR-90 without the upgrade would be able to perform an action from its fore section (or rear for the Raider) then perform either a reinforce or recover upgrade with the other section. Compare this to the GR-75/Gozanti.

 

As you see they only have one ship/section card so they can only perform one action without the adv protocols upgrade. They could do a reinforce just like a Raider or CR-90 but they cannot make another action unlike the CR-90 or raider. Advanced protocols allows them to be able to make a reinforce or recover action after say a coordinate action just like a raider or CR-90.

 

Now since modifications affect both sides of the ship the only way you can use adv protocols for the corvettes with any effect is to perform an action with a crew or upgrade that is not a reinforce or recover. In other words corvettes cannot perform both the reinforce and recover action in the same action step. There are others that argue a timing loophole permits that, I still say it won't but again the only people that can say who is right on that argument is FFG and it won't be until close to the Gozanti release.

 

It does not remove ANYTHING from the bar.

 

The sequence is:

example.

Raider activates Fore section first, puts Reinforce on the heavily-TLed aft section.

Raider activates Aft section second, Declares TL action (not reinforce nor recover)

You spend 1 energy to activate Teh protocols of AWESOME.

You perform Recover action (Ship already perfomed Reinforce, no double actions) on the damaged fore section. 

You DON'T CARE where the recover action is located. If the card instructs you to perform some action, you might not even have it at all. (Leebo, Expert handling, FCS and Mrs.Isard tell us that's normal)

 

You will even be able to perform reinforce\recover actions to perform actions from the destroyed ship section!

 

So it buffs 2-card ships to a greater extent. Especially If you're planning on using them as missile corvettes.

because MOAR ENERGY!

Edited by Warpman

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Automated Protocols, also allows a corvette-class huge ship to keep on Reinforcing and Recovering even when the section that holds these two actions is crippled!

For example, if the the Raider has it's fore section crippled, it normally loses access to Reinforce and Recover. With Automated Protocols, and a working aft section, you can do an action, then trigger this card, and perform a free Reinforce or Recover on the aft section to try and stay alive much longer.

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Page 2 of huge ship rules.

 

 

Performing Actions from a Ship with Two Ship Cards

During the “Perform Action” step, ships with two sections may perform two actions. The first action must be an action in the fore section’s action bar or an action from one of the fore section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards. The second action must be an action in the aft section’s action bar or an action from one of the aft section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards.

 

You can reinforce or recover BUT NEVER BOTH no matter how you want to word it. Putting Adv. Protocols just allows you to use a different action with the section that has reinforce and recover that is not reinforce or recover.

Edited by Marinealver

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Page 2 of huge ship rules.

 

 

Performing Actions from a Ship with Two Ship Cards

During the “Perform Action” step, ships with two sections may perform two actions. The first action must be an action in the fore section’s action bar or an action from one of the fore section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards. The second action must be an action in the aft section’s action bar or an action from one of the aft section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards.

 

You can reinforce or recover BUT NEVER BOTH no matter how you want to word it. Putting Adv. Protocols just allows you to use a different action with the section that has reinforce and recover that is not reinforce or recover.

 

I see nothing in those rules you have quoted that prevents doing what I said.

Perform action step:

1 - Do one action listed on the fore section action bar, or on an upgrade card equipped to that section.

2 - Do one action listed on the aft section action bar, or on an upgrade card equipped to that section.

 

So

 

1 - Fore section: Perform a Reinforce action.

2 - Aft section: Perform a Target Lock action -> Trigger Automated Protocols -> Perform a free Reinforce action or Recover action (you cannot repeat the same action twice, so it would be Recover)

 

The general rules say that when you are granted a free X action, you can perform that X action even if you don't have it in your action bar, as long as you have not performed that same X action already this round, or you are stressed.

The rules that you have quoted do not override this. They only override the general rules for the Perform Action step: Instead of performing a single action as in small and large ships, these rules tell you to perform one action per section as your normal actions for the round. That's all. It doesn't explicitly prevent free actions from occurring in either section, neither the type of these free actions.

 

If they didn't want huge ships to perform both Reinforce and Recover actions, then they should have worded Automated Protocols like this:

"After performing an action that is not Reinforce or Recover, you may perform a free Reinforce or Recover action in your action bar."

Otherwise, you can.

Of course, it can also happen that they didn't realize this and they "fix" it in the FAQ. FFG is not above altering the deal.

Edited by Azrapse

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Page 2 of huge ship rules.

 

 

Performing Actions from a Ship with Two Ship Cards

During the “Perform Action” step, ships with two sections may perform two actions. The first action must be an action in the fore section’s action bar or an action from one of the fore section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards. The second action must be an action in the aft section’s action bar or an action from one of the aft section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards.

 

You can reinforce or recover BUT NEVER BOTH no matter how you want to word it. Putting Adv. Protocols just allows you to use a different action with the section that has reinforce and recover that is not reinforce or recover.

 

Exactly. So, in your example, a CR90's Fore section activates and chooses Target Lock as an action. Then, Advanced Protocols triggers and gives the Fore a free action of either Recover or Reinforce. The CR90 Fore chooses Reinforce and places a token on the ship. Then, the Aft section activates and chooses the Recover action on its own action bar.

 

No problem with that portion of the rules here. Just like how a VT-49 can take an Evade action that isn't on its action bar with Ysanne Isard equipped.

Edited by Rithrin

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And what does that quoted section of rules have to do with free actions (Assuming huge ships could perform them)? It is well established (like, from the day the game was released) that a ship does not need a particular action in its action bar if a card tells it to perform that action specifically. A decimator can perform an evade action with Isaard. Hell, if there was a card that allowed a small ship to perform a reinforce action it could do it. Likewise, a given section does not need either of these actions to use AP (I'm still not sure the SECTION has anything to do with it, the SHIP is performing a free action).

My corvette performs a TL action as it's fore action. Has it now "performed an action that is not a recover or reinforce action"? If the answer is yes then I may trigger the card and execute its effects. Once I am done executing the card I move on with my perform action step and the aft section may take an action. Did AP specify any restrictions on future actions? If no then I may choose any action the aft section can normally perform (which means I can't repeat an action I have already taken).

Could FFG errata something so that it no longer works like that? Absolutely. I give it a 50/50 chance they will do so. But the rules as they are currently written definitely allow it. You know, except for part about the card not actually doing anything at all because...free action.

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If FFG really wanted to boost Epic format and sell huge ships, not only they wouldn't prevent this extra survivability source, but actually encourage it.

It is well known that 150 points of huge ship doesn't last as long and doesn't deal as much damage than 150 points of small or large ships.

This helps the first part: lasting longer.

But if they are in their right mind, they should even issue a rules change to help with the second part, with something like "Huge ships cannot keep or use Focus tokens. All Eye results rolled by a Huge ship are immediately changed to Hit results."

Seriously, if a pilot can take his time to calm his mind and focus in the middle of a dogfight, at the same time that he pilots his ship and avoids the enemy fire, it should be much easier for someone sitting on a gunner station, warm, safe and with the help of many targetting systems, with the guide of an officer, and with the sole task of shooting, to actually focus on their one job, like always.

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Page 2 of huge ship rules.

 

 

Performing Actions from a Ship with Two Ship Cards

During the “Perform Action” step, ships with two sections may perform two actions. The first action must be an action in the fore section’s action bar or an action from one of the fore section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards. The second action must be an action in the aft section’s action bar or an action from one of the aft section’s Upgrade cards or Damage cards.

 

You can reinforce or recover BUT NEVER BOTH no matter how you want to word it. Putting Adv. Protocols just allows you to use a different action with the section that has reinforce and recover that is not reinforce or recover.

you CAN do both, because the card lets you perform that action, whether you have the icon or not.

Mrs. Isard sits inside a Decimator and ALL OF THE SUDDEN it can perform evade actions!

 

Protocols allow you to perform a reinforce or recover action after ANY action that's not reinforce or recover.

 

Expert handling lets you do a barrel roll with your YV-666, leebo can Boost an EU-less YT space cow, FCS lets Phantom TL even without an icon.

 

So it's irrelevant.

Protocols buff double-card ships.

But only if the FFG FAQs the word FREE out of the card

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Historically, the developers have always waited until the product in question is released before answering e-mails about them, so that won't help right now. Despite the fact that they probably cemented the new wording for Huge ship rules 12 months ago in the design process...

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